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Quote from: LizzieL on Thursday 22 May 25 09:58 BST (UK)

When George married Mary Ann Gibbons, witnesses were John Horrocks and Elizabeth Horrocks. The signature of John is similar to the John Horrocks who married Hannah Ball in 1807. Image on Ancestry

Lizzie, I'm glad you changed 'identical' to  'similar' in your posting. Personally I would dispute that they are that similar, looking at the formation of the H, the Rs and the K in Horrocks. However, it's up to the OP to decide, not me.

Very good of both of you to take the trouble to look into this.  Whilst Hannah Ball generally appears on published pedigrees as the wife of John Horrocks, I agree the signatures are similar but I'm not totally convinced they're identical.  Another 'Hannah" is a Hannah Nuttall, who appears in some pedigrees.  She was married to a John Horrocks but in Eccles Lancs, March 1815.  I would rule her out because of the date and location.
My money is on Hannah Ball, mainly because of the location and dates, but I would prefer to have further evidence.

There's a public tree here:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/27750895?cfpid=370137664733&dtid=100

which has John and Hannah Ball.  They have a son, John H jnr (B 1809) who marries Elizabeth Winters.  I think John+ Hannah may have had other children, but they would be a subject for later.

Many thanks for your research LizzieL, it's very kind of you to take the trouble.  As you say any daughters would have been too young to go with the coachman.  Wills were going to be one of my next steps.. 

My tree is solid back to George Horrocks ( B 1814) whose father was ( I think) John Horrocks.  Prior to George, things get hazy since we're reliant on Parish Registers and other sources.   I am guessing George's father would be born around 1790 or so.  1783 is a little early albeit plausible, although they tended to have children very early.

My difficulty is how to find a link between any Horrocks in Lancashire and those in the Birmingham area.  Simple birth or marriage dates are not adequate to prove a person born in Lancs is the same one that married or died in Birmingham.  If the daughter was cut off, the coachman presumably being sacked, (unless he was someone elses) they would need to find work of some sort.  Migration out of the area would have been one option, although the 'pull' of Birmingham might not have been adequate at the turn of the 18/19th C. 

One of those things it's difficult to get a grip on.

[EDIT]. Burscough's book on the Horrocks does include a series of pedigrees and I wonder whether it might be more fruitful to explore these to see if there are any plausible links.

Many thanks for the replies, there's rather a lot to digest.

I'm sceptical regarding the evidential value of published pedigrees.  That's not to say they have no value, but as LizzieL points out, they are only as good as the researcher who compiled it.  In this case part of the pedigree confirms my own independent research, but when it reaches pre-1830 or so we are in the realms of speculation. 

@aghadowey:  thank you for the link which does explain the codes.  I think they may have some use in aiding research but only in the realm of published trees.  Even then they can be misleading.

Some background.  There is a myth in my family that we are somehow related to Horrocks the cotton king.  The story goes that a daughter came over all Downton Abbey and legged it with the coachman.  Daddy was no Lord Grantham and banished her and the coachman from the family. 

For the myth to be even remotely true there would need to be a female Horrocks marrying.  My own researches show a relationship to a male Horrocks in the Birmingham area, but a published tree shows a Horrocks born in the Manchester area who died in Birmingham.  Unfortunately he married in Birmingham, but it does show a link to cotton country.  However, there would need to be more evidence that the Horrocks born in Manchester who died in Birmingham was the same person.  Parish registers of the period are not really adequate for that, so the jury is still out. 

Like all family myths there is probably something in it somewhere, but however romantic the story I doubt it is anything like as presented.

decessit sine prole
https://www.latin-is-simple.com/en/vocabulary/phrase/406/
Debra 

ThanK you Debra.  I thought it probably was Latin but couldn't think what it might be.