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Messages - jbluj

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1
London and Middlesex / Re: Rebecca Judith Larcher
« on: Friday 02 June 23 20:09 BST (UK)  »
One final final point I missed….

The penultimate child of John & Susanna was Ruth in 1780.
I can find no evidence that Ruth married or died either as a child or in later life. Ruth doesn’t seem to exist after her birth. Although this lost tracking is far too common at this time, is it too fanciful to consider that Ruth was wrongly named and she was actually Rebecca? Now that is perhaps a step too far.


2
London and Middlesex / Re: Rebecca Judith Larcher
« on: Friday 02 June 23 17:43 BST (UK)  »
A number of years have passed so previously interested parties may no longer be listening in.

Summarising the points I have come to believe as Most likely…..

John Hartley married Susannah Corke in Southwark in 1760. This is a mere 3-4 miles walk from Wandsworth where the nucleus of Huguenot weavers lived at that time. Over the coming years the Huguenots moved across the river and to the east end….so did John& Susanna.

In fact they lived at the same addresses /locations at various times as the Larcher families.

It’s therefore my contention that Rebecca Judith was a child of John (a weaver) & Susanna and her close association with the Larchers resulted in her marrying Andrew c 1801.

At Rebecca’s death she was called Ann Rebecca. This could have been a confused scribe or Andrew or maybe she was Ann Rebecca? Having their first child named after the mother could have led to confusion as the family grew. Maybe Ann Rebecca snr preferred her second name or with increased religious non conformist fervour preferred to be known by her biblical name …to also avoid confusion with her daughter…so she dropped the Ann? We will never know.

I have no idea why the name Judith came and went throughout her child bearing years or where it originated. Again it may have been a biblically inspired addition? Suffice to say it has all the hallmarks of a chosen rather than a given name.

Ann Rebecca snr recorded age at death could be wrong or quite simply living as they did around the Larchers maybe the resp. families condoned a younger than normal marriage?

As has been noted Rebecca could write. So could this John Hartley (witness at some children’s marriages) Without being cruel, it seems like John Hartley was from a more educated background. Which may put some credence to a family connection with the other more prosperous? Hartleys around in London at that time….William (Vintner) & Rebecca his wife and John (Mercer) with his daughter Rebecca.

It wouldnt be too far fetched to think that Rebecca Judith was homage to an aunt or a grandparent??

One final point on possible origins of John Hartley. The recent Gallows Pole series on tv marks the plight of Yorkshire weavers and their migration to find work and survive as the Industrial Revolution squeezed them out of their manual jobs in Yorkshire. Was John Hartley (a surname also used in the series and common in West Yorkshire) one of the migrants…going to London and to the proximity of the Huguenot community?

Interesting there is a migratory example in Johns family. Flora (his daughter) married lace maker Thomas Peet (a native of Nottinghamshire) in London. The married duo then returned to Nottingham to continue ‘mechanised’ lace making. I also believe they were involved in the transfer of expertise to Calais where a huge community of Nottingham/Derby lace makers went and greatly influenced the mechanisation of French lace making.




3
London and Middlesex / Re: Rebecca Judith Larcher
« on: Saturday 15 June 19 12:22 BST (UK)  »
Ok Ancestry experts explain this entry ....

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=1351&h=755653650&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=1351

I am guessing it’s a spurious error outputting datafields from the 1829 baptismal confirmation of Thomas Mark Larcher.....as it’s the only place where the dreaded Martly/Hartly name is mentioned alongside Rebecca Larcher.

I’ve sent a challenge to Ancestry to supply the date and place for that record. ::)

4
Family History Beginners Board / Re: My Huguenot tree Surname Larcher
« on: Thursday 13 June 19 19:18 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Karen.Newman on Sunday 03 April 16 12:18 BST (UK)
This is my tree with regards to the French Huguenots, I'm going back from my Great grandmother.

ALICE JESSIE KIGHT BORN 1876
Her mother
MARY ANN WATLEY Born 1841 Whitechapel   married Francis Kight
Her mother
HARRIET LARCHER Born 1811 Shoreditch      marriedThomas Watley
Her father
ANDREW LARCHER Born 1777 Shoreditch  married Rebecca Judith Martley ?
His father
JOHN LARCHER  Born 1740 Wandsworth  married  Anne Richards ?
His father
ANDREW LARCHER born 1713 Wandsworth  married  Anne Field ?
His father
PHILLIPE LARCHER Born 1676 in Poitou Charentes  married  Marie Brossard ?
His father
JAQUES LARCHER Born abt 1650 in Poitou Charentes  married Judith Groust ?

Can someone have a look at this and tell me if I have this right please?

Also I'm pretty sure about the men as have looked at records etc for them but I am unsure about the women that they married, particularly the ones with the question marks by.

Thanks in advance.

Karen

5
London and Middlesex / Re: Rebecca Judith Larcher
« on: Thursday 13 June 19 10:00 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: philipsearching on Thursday 13 June 19 04:28 BST (UK)
Quote from: Kiwi007 on Thursday 13 June 19 00:55 BST (UK)
Re Susannah...no g'tee that death in 1789 is her, or indeed the marriage is the right one...they just LOOK so promising. If both are ours, then Susannah was 7 or 8 years older than John and John was VERY young to be marrying this older woman!.

That is, if we assume his age at death was given correctly.  Ages on census returns and death/burial records were often inaccurate in the 19th century.  Imagine a grieving son or daughter being asked: "How old was your father?" - how many would know the right answer! For the labouring classes (with varying levels of literacy and numeracy) there was no advantage to being seen as old.  John might have been 77 - we just don't know yet.

Philip

ps - I discounted Rebecca the victualler's daughter (but I can't recall why - I will have to rummage through my notes) and a Rebecca baptised 1785 in Bishop's Waltham Hampshire who seems to have died young.

There are also John/Mary and a John/Elizabeth having children at the same time in same or adjacent parishes. So not yet cut and dried it is John/Susannah.

The problem is we have several snippets of info ....which ones are correct is the question.
She said her father was John; she signed her name Rebecca yet she was obviously known as Rebecca Judith. We instinctively assume she gave her fathers GIVEN name. But what if John was his family name?  We get into the realm of best guessing too easily. :'(

6
London and Middlesex / Re: Rebecca Judith Larcher
« on: Thursday 13 June 19 09:20 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Kiwi007 on Thursday 13 June 19 02:23 BST (UK)
Sitting here re reading all the posts and realised I am talking to my very own cousin......laugh my head off ...JF??...its JB here ( the clue is right there in my user name) :) When you mentioned wedding anniversary, I thought...oooh someone else mentioned that recently.....then I received your email just now, and REALLY thought it was you:)!!
Too funny.
So I'll take the opportunity to suggest ANYONE who has a DNA test, really should load it up to GEDMATCH ( Genesis)...it will give you matches from other DNA testing companies, and a whole lot more, it is free ( or a small fee for advanced stuff) and has some fun stuff too.
https://www.gedmatch.com/login1.php

When we’ve stopped laughing I will email you.

7
London and Middlesex / Re: Rebecca Judith Larcher
« on: Thursday 13 June 19 00:22 BST (UK)  »
Wow ...you are a Speedy Gonzales.  ;D. Well done!

I had only just started the Hartley search this afternoon but had discovered Ruth, Israel and Susannah. We are on the same track!  You just saved me some hard work. Thanks 😆

I had also seen the death of young Israel in 1784 and had been temporarily distracted from further sibling searching, by the notion that maybe, just maybe...the death of a child might have in some way distracted them from Christening Ann Rebecca????, as it WAS 1784, the very year that Andrew gave as her birth, in her death certificate???

The child of Mr Heartley buried in 1766 is in all probability a child of John / Susannah as there would seem to be a gap in their children’s baptisms in 1766.

John remarrying would have no bearing on AR. If HIS Susannah lived till 1789 and AR was born in 1784 she would be their offspring. 

Time for bed here now. Wedding anniversary tomorrow so no genealogy. Thanks once again for your hard work. 👍

BTW...I am descended from Eliza Watley d. Thomas and Harriet Watley

One final tantalising thought... there is a Judith Corke being buried in 1768 in Godstone, Surrey (admittedly some miles south of Southwark) ..... Susannah’s mother?? Ann Rebecca’s grandmother......Judith!!?!?!?

Bed.




8
Europe / Re: LARCHER - French Huguenot
« on: Tuesday 11 June 19 18:22 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: richarde1979 on Friday 14 May 10 14:10 BST (UK)
Hello

........



The second couple Josue and Esther, I cannot find a marriage for, but they had two children at least, Moise Larcher, baptised at Crispin Street, Spitalfields, East London 1701 and a daughter Esther Larcher baptised at West Street Church, Westminster, West London 1708. This is exactly the same baptimal pattern as Jacques son, Abraham. Further evidence of a link, Josue also stood as a witness to a marriage in the Leicester Fields church in 1793 same time Jacques was using it . Josue was certainly originally from Poitou too. He was a Merchant Distiller, and was admitted into the French Hospital London, where he died 1777. He gives the info he was the son of a Phillip Larcher of La Mothe, Poitou. Phillipe his father must have been in London too as he also died in the hospital 35 years earlier, 1743, aged 69. Phillipe was described as a member of the Huguenot congregation at Wandsworth, which I think is very significant and will come back to later.



The entries for the surname then seem to dry up in the French records.



Sorry, having just joined and reading the Larcher posts from the start I am a bit late with this comment, but here goes.....

There must be a second Phillipe either hidden in community or back in France because despite Josue saying his father was Phillipe it couldn’t have been the Phillipe that married Marie Broussard. Josue was having Moise and Esther around the same time as the 27yr old Philippe was marrying Marie. I always assumed the Phillipe who died in 1743 was the husband of Marie.

Also not sure why you think the Larcher line dries up in French records? There are trees back to 1500.

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London and Middlesex / Re: Rebecca Judith Larcher
« on: Tuesday 11 June 19 18:01 BST (UK)  »
Thanks for the welcome. We’ve been hunting ancestors since the 1980s and still have lots of gaps in the numerous families, but regarding the origin of Rebecca Judith Larcher may I make the following observations....

There are two key issues 1) her given name 2) her birth date

I’ve found only 3 instances where the name Judith is written....the baptism records of her children: Elizabeth 1808, Harriet 1811, Andrew 1813.  The other children just have the mother’s name as Rebecca.  What’s more, on two instances where she signed her name, she writes Rebeker Larcher.  NOTE : She COULD sign her name and no Judith.
Interestingly, her upward sloping signature might suggest she was left handed?

So I believe the Judith second name is a red herring regarding official records.



Rebecca Larcher (wife of Andrew) was recorded at her death (1838) as Ann Rebecca Larcher ...by her husband. Suggesting that WAS her given name, at least as far as HE was aware. 

It’s quite plausible that with daughter and mother both Ann Rebecca some name modification was necessary to avoid family confusion. The use of Judith might have been personal choice ....or was it perhaps honouring some family member..... that might be a further clue?


There has been a lot of discussion about her maiden name....Martly, Hartley or Harvey.   On the 1829 Thomas Mark Larcher birth record, the words Mark and Middlesex show how the M is formed by that scribe. It is clearly different from the letter that starts Rebecca’s maiden name. That’s an H!


The suggestion it could be Harvey is an interesting one. There is an Ann Rebecca born to John and Hannah Harvey in Bethnal Green in 1786 which, on face value, ticks her given name, father’s Christian name and is close to the birth date derived from the death certificate. It however poses 2 concerns....

1. Her first child Ann Rebecca was born 28/11/1801 when Ann Rebecca Snr would have been 15yr old!  Not impossible of course and maybe a reason there isn’t a marriage to be found?
2. Unlike her husband and many poor weavers at that time, Rebecca could sign her name. Does this suggest a different community for her family origins?

For what it’s worth,  I think there is an earlier Ann Rebecca Hartley out there ....somewhere.



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