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Messages - Love&Leaves

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1
Northumberland / Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« on: Tuesday 13 December 22 22:12 GMT (UK)  »
Regarding Elizabeth.. yes RTL 4 Sept 1917 is date on the certificate.  Can't get anymore definitive than this.  So definitely the Patterson alias and the Robins Hood Yard Moralee's  ;D

2
Northumberland / Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« on: Tuesday 13 December 22 22:09 GMT (UK)  »
Just AMAZING RTL!  :o. Thank you so much for the effort of getting to the archives , especially through all the red tape and in this treacherous weather!

This is a brilliant breakthrough re Giovanni!  I'm going to see if I can find any newspaper articles or if there are any court records available.  My hope is that the board of guardians confirmed whether Giovanni did indeed return to Italy.  I am also intrigued as to what they meant by 'handing the children over to their father'.. would they have sent the children to Italy??  I agree with RTL, they clearly didn't believe he was in Italy.

FYI, they changed the number of children from six to five as daughter Elizabeth turned 16 in Oct 1902.


3
Midlothian / Re: Battista's in Edinburgh
« on: Friday 18 November 22 14:51 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: Forfarian on Wednesday 16 November 22 20:39 GMT (UK)
Giovanni is the Italian for John, is it not?

There is only one record in Scotland of a John Battista, a marriage in 1945. And the 24-year-old in 1911 is the only Giovanni Battista.

Maybe he decided to retire back to Italy? Have you looked for a death there?

John is indeed the anglicised version of Giovanni.

Thank you for the marriage reference.. I checked this one and he's a Di Battista, different surname  :-\ Also, my Giovanni would have been 100 in 1945.  He was Italian but thats a stretch  ;)

I have some cousins in New Zealand who are direct descendants of Giovanni, one who started the long running Battista thread, and they did hire an Italian researcher.  They were able to find his birth certificate, along with his two brothers (and two sisters) and their parents marriage certificate.  No sign of a death certificate, certainly under his real name but as I mentioned he was very fond of an alias and there is no guarantees he would have returned to the same region in Italy.  I am hoping to try and trace the line back there one day and maybe we will find he returned there.  It's a difficult task however as they came from Cassino, which was flattened in WW2 and most records destroyed.  I also think they may have been there for a short time (it is well known as a transient area) and definitely moved on prior to WW2 though as I have visited the area myself and trawled the cemeteries with not much luck!

4
Midlothian / Re: Battista's in Edinburgh
« on: Wednesday 16 November 22 20:24 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: MonicaL on Wednesday 16 November 22 20:14 GMT (UK)
There is this mention of the name, Giovanni Battista Arcari, on the National Records of Scotland site. See:

www.rootschat.com/links/01rxr/
www.rootschat.com/links/01rxq/

Links shrunk.

Monica

Thanks Monica, I don't think this is the same Giovanni.  Battista here is used as a forename, Acari is the surname.  It's quite a common name and more often used as a forename, across all regions of Italy, a bit like Mohammed in Middle Eastern countries. The use of it as a surname is specific to the region of Italy they came from.

5
Midlothian / Re: Battista's in Edinburgh
« on: Wednesday 16 November 22 20:19 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: CaroleW on Wednesday 16 November 22 17:24 GMT (UK)
I haven’t read that post due to the length of it so apologies if the questions below have already been addressed

You say your Giovanni would have been 66 in 1911 so born around 1844/45.  Have you found any documentary confirmation that he was ever in Scotland? 

If not - apart from the surname being found in Scotland - why do you think he may have been in Scotland?

Has he been found on any Scottish census?

Has his wife or children been found on a Scottish census or BMD record?

You are correct, he was born in April 1845.  He came to the UK around 1870 with two brothers and they settled in Newcastle/North Shields.  All three brothers had big families, most of whom stayed in North East of England other than my branch who came South.  Giovanni disappears around 1904 and we only have note of him on his children's marriage certificates and workhouse records thereafter.  The first definite note of him being deceased is not until 1918 (a marriage certificate).  We cannot find any trace of a death record.  It is a mystery what happened to him after 1904 and for the following period.

The idea that he may have gone to Scotland only came up upon finding the newspaper article, as the man is of the same name and trade.  It is obviously an easy journey to Edinburgh from Newcastle and I understand there was an Italian community settled there.  So I think it is a strong possibility he may have travelled there for work, or maybe because other family had settled there hence my post.  I don't have any other documents or references to Scotland for my Battista's, so it is somewhat of a wild card!

6
Midlothian / Re: Battista's in Edinburgh
« on: Wednesday 16 November 22 20:04 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: Forfarian on Wednesday 16 November 22 18:34 GMT (UK)
Quote from: Love&Leaves on Wednesday 16 November 22 16:52 GMT (UK)
I am trying to trace an ancestor from the North East who may have come to Edinburgh circa 1904/5.
Do you mean the North-East of Scotland, or the North-East of Britain (same thing, really), or the North-East of Italy, or the North-East of somewhere else, and if so where?

Apologies - he was born in Italy lived in Newcastle/North Shields from circa 1870 until 1904ish when he disappears from the records.

7
Midlothian / Re: Battista's in Edinburgh
« on: Wednesday 16 November 22 17:16 GMT (UK)  »
Thank you for attaching the link Carole, we are very determined to chip away at the wall  ;)

I hadn't thought about the Scottish 1921!  That will be useful.

8
Midlothian / Battista's in Edinburgh
« on: Wednesday 16 November 22 16:52 GMT (UK)  »

I am trying to trace an ancestor from the North East who may have come to Edinburgh circa 1904/5.

His name was Giovanni Battista (one and the same from the Brickwall thread on the North East board) also known as John and by many other alias'.

I have an article from the West Lothian Courier dated Aug 1905 concerning a John Battista, Ice Cream Seller, who was fined for leaving his horse and cart to roam without a guide.  I followed this up with the archives and obtained a copy of the relevant Justice of the Peace court records, but sadly there was no further information on him.

I came across a Giovanni Battista, also an ice cream seller, as a visitor to an Italian couple (Dominic & Maria Angeluca) on the 1911 census but the age is wildly out, noted as 24.  My Giovanni would have been 66 years old. 

There are a few other Battista's that also come up when putting the name into Scotlands People but the records and few and far between.  Most are modern records so there are clearly descendants but not much info on the ascendants.  Plus the records of the correct time seem to be from Glasgow and not Edinburgh.  I was wondering if anyone out there recognises them as their ancestors?  I am interested in tracing Battista's in Scotland to see if I can make any family link or otherwise find any evidence to discount the Scottish Giovanni being my Giovanni.

Gallone G Battista - Valuation Roll 1905 Govan & Gorbals
Lauda Battista - Valuation Roll 1905 Govan
M Battista - 1911 Census Boarder Age 19 born Italy, Confectionary shop keeper, Calton, Glasgow
Rosa Battista - 1911 Census Age 49, mother to Augusta Mascia 24 (m. Louis, 33, hairdresser) all born Italy.

Many Thanks  :)


9
Northumberland / Re: Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]
« on: Sunday 13 November 22 19:17 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: River Tyne Lass on Sunday 13 November 22 19:02 GMT (UK)

Thanks RTL  :)  It's been nice to work on things again!  I appreciate how difficult things are at the archives - fingers crossed things will relax in the near future.  I'd love to be able to get there myself, as well as to trawl through more of the workhouse records and guardians minutes in Newcastle and North Shields.  Giovanni must have had time in there as well, likely under an alias, so it would be very long search given all the possibilities.

Thanks for your input on James and Ena - I have been in brief contact with Ena Clarkson's descendants, but there is little interest.  I think it would be a case of a DNA match confirming the link. There is another article about him being in trouble for shouting at the Master not long after his punishment for being the father... I think the 'throwing hints' must have been about James loose morals lets say  ;D

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