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It is convoluted, but it all fits together quite nicely. If Mary isn't a Lightborne, there are a lot of coincidences going on! Mary Rudge married a glassblower named John Dunshee - my tree is online, this is the link to Mary's page

https://sites.google.com/site/smithsplus/home/stanford/samuelrudge1789/maryrudge1817

I've not got all the Rudge/Lightborne stuff on yet, as I've only worked it all out in the last few days

Dave

Hi Scott

I’m descended from Mary Rudge (b 1817) daughter of Samuel & Mary Rudge.

Another of Samuel & Mary’s daughters, Ann (b 1828) married John Lightborne in Harborne in 1828. I have only recently discovered this marriage but it opens up a wealth of possibilities.

The Lightbornes settled near Buckingham (John was born in Leckhampstead), but John’s father, Thomas, gives his birthplace as ‘Oldbury, Shropshire’. Also in the area is a John Lightborne, b 1801 in Oldbury.

I then thought about the Samuel Rudge/Mary Lighham (sic) marriage in 1809. Clearly, Lighham is not a true transcription. It's possible that it’s a botched attempt to write some version of Lightborne (note: Mary has written her own name – it’s not her mark!)?

If you remember, Mary’s birthplace on the 1851 census reads something like ‘Holbury, Shropshire’.

A search for names a bit like Lightborne and Lighham brings up a Mary Lighton, baptised in Oldbury, Worcestershire in 1793, daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth.

Is it possible that ‘Holbury, Shropshire’ is a Leicestershire census taker’s misunderstanding of a Black Country accent actually saying ‘Oldbury’?

Also being baptised in Oldbury around this time are children of Thomas and Elizabeth Lightburne – Thomas (1795), Ann (1798) and John (1801). In a couple of cases, according to the IGI, these baptisms take place at the “Presbyterian Church, Oldbury by Halesowen, Shropshire’. Despite the ‘Shropshire’, this is the Oldbury actually then in Worcestershire, but which now forms part of Sandwell.

It is reasonable to assume that the Thomas baptised in 1795 is the father of the John who marries Ann Rudge in 1850. Also, that the John baptised in 1801 is the one also in Bucks.

If we have a double whammy mistranscription of Mary Lighham/Lighton’s name actually being Lightburne/Lightborne, then it looks like she is Thomas and John’s sister and that the Ann Rudge/John Lightborne marriage is one between first cousins.

So far, quite complicated, but here my brain gets really fried…

Having traced Thomas and John Lightborne, and possibly/probably Mary Lighham/Lighton, I wondered about Ann Lightborne. This I wasn’t expecting:

Ann Lightborne married Samuel Rudge in Harborne in 1815.

But this is a different Samuel Rudge. If you’ve looked for the children of Samuel and Mary, you’ve probably found the children of this marriage as well. The main ones of interest are:
John, b 1817, West Brom
Samuel, b 1818, West Brom

This Samuel is almost certainly the one who ended up becoming a JP and Mayor of Dudley.  In 1851, John is to be found with his mother, who is now named Morris – Samuel died in 1826, and she remarried in 1830.

So, what we may well have is two different Samuel Rudges, who married sisters.

I do have a theory to connect them as well!

Dave

Hi Annette - glad someone was listening, and the Edward error in Sutton makes sense.

I’m descended from Mary Rudge (b 1817) daughter of Samuel & Mary Rudge.

Another of Samuel & Mary’s daughters, Ann (b 1828) married John Lightborne in Harborne in 1828. I have only recently discovered this marriage but it opens up a wealth of possibilities.

The Lightbornes settled near Buckingham (John was born in Leckhampstead), but John’s father, Thomas, gives his birthplace as ‘Oldbury, Shropshire’. Also in the area is a John Lightborne, b 1801 in Oldbury.

I then thought about the Samuel Rudge/Mary Lighham (sic) marriage in 1809. Clearly, Lighham is not a true transcription. It's possible that it’s a botched attempt to write some version of Lightborne (note: Mary has written her own name – it’s not her mark!)?

If you remember, Mary’s birthplace on the 1851 census reads something like ‘Holbury, Shropshire’.

A search for names a bit like Lightborne and Lighham brings up a Mary Lighton, baptised in Oldbury, Worcestershire in 1793, daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth.

Is it possible that ‘Holbury, Shropshire’ is a Leicestershire census taker’s misunderstanding of a Black Country accent actually saying ‘Oldbury’?

Also being baptised in Oldbury around this time are children of Thomas and Elizabeth Lightburne – Thomas (1795), Ann (1798) and John (1801). In a couple of cases, according to the IGI, these baptisms take place at the “Presbyterian Church, Oldbury by Halesowen, Shropshire’. Despite the ‘Shropshire’, this is the Oldbury actually then in Worcestershire, but which now forms part of Sandwell.

It is reasonable to assume that the Thomas baptised in 1795 is the father of the John who marries Ann Rudge in 1850. Also, that the John baptised in 1801 is the one also in Bucks.

If we have a double whammy mistranscription of Mary Lighham/Lighton’s name actually being Lightburne/Lightborne, then it looks like she is Thomas and John’s sister and that the Ann Rudge/John Lightborne marriage is one between first cousins.

So far, quite complicated, but here my brain gets really fried…

Having traced Thomas and John Lightborne, and possibly/probably Mary Lighham/Lighton, I wondered about Ann Lightborne. This I wasn’t expecting:

Ann Lightborne married Samuel Rudge in Harborne in 1815.

But this is a different Samuel Rudge. If you’ve looked for the children of Samuel and Mary, you’ve probably found the children of this marriage as well. The main ones of interest are:
John, b 1817, West Brom
Samuel, b 1818, West Brom

This Samuel is almost certainly the one who ended up becoming a JP and Mayor of Dudley.  In 1851, John is to be found with his mother, who is now named Morris – Samuel died in 1826, and she remarried in 1830.

So, what we may well have is two different Samuel Rudges, who married sisters.

I do have a theory to connect them as well!

Dave

Not sure if anyone is still following this thread or will be notified of my comment, but I have an interesting theory about Mary 'Lighham' - who I think is my GGGG Grandmother (I'm descended from Samuel and Mary's daughter Mary)