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Messages - Buffnut453

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1
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: Interpreting (not Deciphering) a 1706 Will
« on: Sunday 14 September 25 17:19 BST (UK)  »
These years include the Civil War period, when many registers have few to no register entries for many years. And what there are are often the well-to-do or the clerk's own family, when you have a good look at them. It is nearly always difficult to bridge the Civil War gap. Registers frequently didn't restart straight after 1660, the country took a while to recover, and keeping records wasn't the top of their priority list. Many baptisms either didn't happen, or went unrecorded.

Culcheth seems to have been a chapelry of Winwick, and there is one entry in Winwick in 1661 for Elizabeth daughter of William of Culcheth.

I did also find, on FindMyPast, an entry on a list of marriages for 1676 for a William Bates and Margaret Rydings, labelled "Ould Withington". Unfortunately FindMyPast didn't say what the register was, nor can I find the marriage mentioned anywhere else!

Thanks for the insights...to my great shame, it never occurred to me that the Civil War would impact the recording of church events.  The Battle of Winwick in August 1648 certainly would have disrupted things for the locals. 

I'd seen the marriage of William Bates and Margaret Rydeing in 1676 but that seems rather too distant from Winwick to be the right family. 

'Tis frustrating!

2
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: Interpreting (not Deciphering) a 1706 Will
« on: Sunday 14 September 25 16:56 BST (UK)  »
The problem is the Culcheth registers have many missing pages.
You can view the book of the registers on MyHeritage. (I can't see if the registers are on familysearch, as the 'search' and 'search catalogue' facilities are not working - they have done a big 'update' - HA!)

It looks like whoever was the incumbrent there in the mid 1600s did not do a great job at keeping up the registers. Perhaps there was no incumbrent for some of the time, (it has been known).
Between about 1654 and 1681 there are no marriage entries at all, and some of those years there are no baptisms or burials; some years there are just one or two - usually for the family which looks as though they were the Lord of the Manor, (Holcroft) - perhaps he filled in the register himself.

It looks as though these are the years in which the other children will have been born.

Do you know for a fact that the name of the mother of the first two children was Jane?
I can see no mother's name on their baptisms.
'Henry son of Willem Bete 4 febrery 1665' - as written.

Although you have found a marriage for a William 'Baate' to a Jane Hussey in Warrington in 1665, this may not be the same William Bate.
Have you searched for other children around Warrington for this William Bate and Jane?

If the name of the wife in the will is Margaret, perhaps that had been his one and only wife, and their marriage is one that is missing from the Culcheth registers.
No burial for a Jane Bate, but again missing years at the pertinent dates.
A Margaret Bate was buried 5th June 1712 which is probably her, although again nothing else is written in the register.

As the Chucheth registers are a poor source of information, other avenues could be helpful

Have you found the parents of Jame Hussey?
Did her father leave a will? There may be some mention of Bate grandchildren.

There are baptisms to other Bate families in the Chucheth registers - I saw Roger, Robert, Gilbert and John, but there may be others. You should check.
Have you followed these other Bate lines? Did any of then leave will? Once again your Bate children may be mentioned.
I have found the wills of bachelor uncles and spinster aunts to be particularly useful, as, having no children themseves, they tended to leave items to nephews and neices and wives of their brothers and sisters
 
I did see the surname Bate in the Culcheth registers in the early 1600s.
It looks as though they have been there for some time.

I see 'Wm Bate junior,' along with 'James Batte' and  'Hamlet Batte' (I saw a couple of baptisms with him as the father), are listed in the 1664 Hearth Tax at Culcheth.
'Henry Baite' is at 'Croft' - another place that turns up in the Culcheth registers - it must have been very close). 'Margery Baite' also at Croft, John, James, Robert, Cicely ................
https://gams.uni-graz.at/o:htx.lnc5

Many thanks for responding to my question, and apologies for the delay in getting back to you. 

I really appreciated the insights into the lack of consistent records in Culcheth.  It's a real challenge, hence my question.

I'm not 100% convinced that the 1665 marriage of William Bate and Jane Hussey in Warrington is the right one but it's the only one in the area that matches the timing for the Christening of Henry Bate in on 4 Feb 1665/66.  There is a later Christening of another Henry Bate, son of William, in 1676 but that's too late to by "my" Henry who married around 1691 (again, no marriage record for him).

I haven't identified Jane Hussey's parents yet.  There are a few Christenings of Jane Husseys in Warrington in the 1630-1645 timeframe, most having a father's name of John.  Unfortunately, most of them seem to have died, and I've not been able to tie down whether there was only one John Hussey or multiples of them in Warrington at that time.   

My concern with the idea of William only marrying once is that his later children would be quite old at the time of his death in 1706.  Since "my" Henry was born in 1666 and another son, James, born in 1671, the 6 children named in the will would likely be born in the period 1673-1683 (assuming a fairly typical 2 years in between births).  That would make the youngest child 23 and the eldest 33 at the time of William Bate's death and yet only one son-in-law is named, and William is at pains to make provision for his younger children.  I think it's more logical that the 6 younger children were more likely in their teens to early twenties at the time William died...however, happy to be persuaded if my logic isn't sound.

It's certainly something of a tangle.  I'm just trying to make the best family alignment given the paucity of records.  That's why I find will and probate records so useful; they often include names of children that lack Christening records.

3
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Interpreting (not Deciphering) a 1706 Will
« on: Wednesday 10 September 25 19:10 BST (UK)  »
I traced one branch of my family tree to a 7th Great-Grandfather of mine, Henry Bate (1666-1728), whose father was William Bate (d 1706), both of Culcheth, Lancashire.  A marriage record for William Bate from Warrington in 1665 lists his wife as Jane Hussey.  There's also a Christening record for a second son, James in 1671. 

A 1706 will for William Bate of Culcheth has some intriguing similarities but also some major discrepancies.  I'm trying to interpret the will and make sure I'm not jumping to conclusions.

The will identifies sons Henry and James but grants nothing to them, although Henry is charged with paying a sum from the estate he holds to William's "deare wife" Margaret.  The will also leaves sums to William's other children, some 6 in total (John, Mary, Alice, Sarah Margery and Catherine).  The will also mentions a son-in-law, Thomas Farnworth, who gets "one shilling and noe more."

My challenge is the complete lack of corresponding church records.  There's no burial record for a Jane Bate (William's first wife), no marriage to a Margaret, and no Christening records for any of the 6 additional children.  I also can't find a marriage for any female Bate to a Thomas Farnworth between 1683 and 1706.

Having pored over these details, my thinking is that William's first wife, Jane, died sometime after 1671 and that William's eldest sons, Henry and James, were granted some holdings while their father was alive which afforded them a good living, which might explain why William focused the bequests in his will on the younger children.  I may be reading too much into the language but the fact that Margaret is not described as Henry's mother might be telling.

I'd appreciate any thoughts from the experts here.  Happy to share the transcript if that helps. 

4
Cheshire / Re: Another Location Request - Grappenhall This Time
« on: Monday 01 September 25 06:49 BST (UK)  »
The Christening records lie between 1661 and 1670.  I'm not expecting to find a map that early but I agree Cotridge and Cartridge do sound similar. 

5
Cheshire / Another Location Request - Grappenhall This Time
« on: Sunday 31 August 25 19:31 BST (UK)  »
Christening records for children of an 8th Great-Grandfather, William Rycroft of Grappenhall give the family's abode as Catheridge (or Cotridge) Lane.  I'm wondering if that's the same as the modern-day Cartridge Lane just southeast of the village?

Any thoughts/insights would be very much appreciated. 

6
Cheshire / Can anyone identify this place - near Halton and Runcorn?
« on: Saturday 30 August 25 22:50 BST (UK)  »
A burial record provides this place-name associated with the person, Anne Cawley (buried 29 Apr 1731).  I can't decypher it - best I can come up with is Quilshall but that clearly isn't right.  Other records associated with the family list Halton and Runcorn as abodes. 

Any Cheshire experts out there know what it might be?  Please????


7
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: Struggling with a Will from 1583
« on: Tuesday 24 December 24 16:05 GMT (UK)  »
Hi @horselydown86,

Many, MANY thanks for all your help with this document.  There are many terms that I would never have uncovered on my own.

The will is dated around 20 July 1583 and there's a corresponding burial for a Richard Barton at St.Peter & St.Paul, Ormskirk, on 5 August of that year. 

I'm guessing that his son, Gabriell, must have been at least 21 years old in 1583 in order to act as an executor for the will.  Similarly, his son John was probably of age. 

Interestingly, there's a Christening record for a Henrie Barton, son of Ric. Barton, on 18 September 1583.  Perhaps he's the unborn child mentioned in the will?  It certainly matches with the description in the will of Ann, Richard's wife, being "great with all."

There's a Christening for a George Barton, son of Richard, on 9 March 1580/81 which might be the George mentioned in the will, although he was still very young and I'd have expected some mention to be made of him achieving adulthood in order to secure his share of the inheritance.  The 1580/81 George Barton is my 10th Great-Grandfather so it would be particularly interesting if he was, indeed, the son of Richard who died in 1583.

Christening details for John, Gabriell and Thomas are harder to pin down, although they may have been older having been born much earlier.  There's a marriage record of a Richard Barton and Jane Mawdsley in 1564 but even that is only just in time for Gabriell, if he was the eldest child, to be of age at the time of his father's death.

There's certainly a lot to dig through based on the information contained in this will.  Again, HUGE thanks for all the help.  It's been invaluable to me!

8
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: Struggling with a Will from 1583
« on: Tuesday 24 December 24 04:40 GMT (UK)  »
I will look at this later but for now, the name in the smaller clip is:  Tho:

This is a standard way of abbreviating Thomas.

Many thanks horselydown86.  That makes perfect sense and closes some key gaps in the record.

9
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Struggling with a Will from 1583
« on: Monday 23 December 24 23:30 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Folks,

I'm seeking a small Christmas miracle.  I'm struggling to decipher this will from 1583 which I believe relates to my 11th Great-Grandfather, Richard (Rychard) Barton of Ormskirk, Lancashire.

I've included an image of the main record text which hopefully comes through clearly.

The text below covers the scraps that I've pulled together thus far (but which may be entirely wrong).  In the partial transcript below, *** indicates an completely unknown word, while (?) indicates a word that may not be correct.  There are gaps where I have absolutely no clue even how many words might be present:

In the name of god Amen the *** of July 1583, I Rychard Barton sicke in bodye & yeat of good & perfect? memorye god be praysed do make this my last will & testament the manner & forme folowinge

I bequeathe my soule unto the arms of almiytye god trusting through the blessed ***** **** ***** to be **** of those that lived trustinge to his godly ***** And my body to be buri-ed in the parish church of Or[mskir]k Item? I do give & bequest unto Johne(?) my sonne one hayewayne, one ****wayne, one harrowe and payre of plowshares(?), one framing saw & two th****

Tymber ****** belongings, & one roller(?) 

…unto my Sonne Gabriell.  Item: To Johne & gabriell walker? ****** the ***.  Item: my mynde & will is that all the rest of my goods & chattales movable & immovable quick & dead of what qualitye or propty & posn they be so devided into three equall **** the first *** the ****** *** **** to bestowe & at my will as ****** **** ** my funerale *********** that my ** unto my sonne George, & the child which my wyffe is great with all, if it th*** to live until it come to years *** disposition, & ***** **** for it be-fore that tyme, then my mynd & will is that all my ** ***** unto george aforesaid And the **** ** to my wyfe Ann the ****** my retinue/th****(?) equally & to Be divided amonge the viz Gabriell ***: George, & the child *** is to be borne  beloved(?) my wyffe & one *** that name(?) *** child if it live as aforesaid ****** unto the saide gabriell *** and george.  Item I so ****** **** Ann my wyffe & georg Gabriell my sonne thereunto *** my last will & testament And Johne my sonne & Rychard Edwards the **** of the same, his retinue(?)


I'm particularly intrigued by what appears to be a name but which I can't discern, as shown in the smaller attachment.  It appears in a couple of places listed with other sons of the deceased.

Any pointers would be hugely appreciated on either the main text of the will or possible names for the smaller snip.

Many, MANY thanks in advance.

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