1
Warwickshire / Re: Poncia Building, Edgbaston, Birmingham
« on: Thursday 12 October 06 00:13 BST (UK) »
Thanks for this, I thought I'd posted a thank-you at the time!
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2
Lancashire / Re: Bratt grocers
« on: Wednesday 11 October 06 23:49 BST (UK) »
Hi Linda,
Once again thanks and once again I thought I'd get an email from Rootschat so sorry I'm only just replying. I'll just have to check my profile to see why its not working...
I now know when it ceased trading so now I might order up a copy and see why!
Regards,
Ian
Once again thanks and once again I thought I'd get an email from Rootschat so sorry I'm only just replying. I'll just have to check my profile to see why its not working...
I now know when it ceased trading so now I might order up a copy and see why!
Regards,
Ian
3
Cheshire / Re: James Wrench born 1820/Elizabeth Humphreys born 1816 - both Kingsley
« on: Saturday 16 September 06 18:52 BST (UK) »
Thanks very much Jean, I think you have nudged a whole load of pennies to drop! Though it will of course be interesting to see what agric_lad makes of all of this! I might even be related to him!!
If I have this right William Humphreys married Elizabeth Marrow in 1833, Elizabeth being born in 1815-16 in Norley. (By the way did you find William's dob anywhere?) This first marriage produced 2 daughters Ann and Mary Humphreys (or is it spelled Humphries?) Ann married William Shallcross in 1855 (any idea when she was born?) and had a son William Shallcross in 1855 in Acton. The other sister Mary - whom I thought was a Wrench and who is my gggran - was born in 1838-9 in Crowton and married James Walker born 1833 in Kingsley and went on to have a large family of Walkers.
So when William Humphreys died in 1839, in 1850 Elizabeth Marrow Humphreys went on to marry James Wrench who was born 1820-1 in Kingsley. They then had 2 sons Daniel born 1857 and John Wrench born 1859-60.
That's my reading of what you've found - so I suppose now I'm wondering whether there are any other Humphrey and Wrench half-siblings I'm not aware of... I'll eagerly await Agric-lad's news of further ancestors!
Thanks very much to you both,
Ian
If I have this right William Humphreys married Elizabeth Marrow in 1833, Elizabeth being born in 1815-16 in Norley. (By the way did you find William's dob anywhere?) This first marriage produced 2 daughters Ann and Mary Humphreys (or is it spelled Humphries?) Ann married William Shallcross in 1855 (any idea when she was born?) and had a son William Shallcross in 1855 in Acton. The other sister Mary - whom I thought was a Wrench and who is my gggran - was born in 1838-9 in Crowton and married James Walker born 1833 in Kingsley and went on to have a large family of Walkers.
So when William Humphreys died in 1839, in 1850 Elizabeth Marrow Humphreys went on to marry James Wrench who was born 1820-1 in Kingsley. They then had 2 sons Daniel born 1857 and John Wrench born 1859-60.
That's my reading of what you've found - so I suppose now I'm wondering whether there are any other Humphrey and Wrench half-siblings I'm not aware of... I'll eagerly await Agric-lad's news of further ancestors!
Thanks very much to you both,
Ian
4
Lancashire / Re: Bratt grocers
« on: Friday 15 September 06 23:56 BST (UK) »
Thanks Linda,
I must apologise as I thought I'd replied at the time and haven't really been back here for ages...
Yes I've spotted a few of the trade and business directories on another website but I'm always open to new sites with these trade directories. Or any Bratts and Hobsons (or anyone else) out there who can shed a little light on these families. I'm descended from a Bratt but I'm not after my share of anything!! (Joking) I'm really just looking to see how where my Bratt line fits with these other Bratts.
Naturally from a historical perspective it would be intriguing to know just what happened to all these grocery shops - did they retire, become bankrupt, were they taken over, did they sell out? These things happen and its funny to think that some businesses go on to become Marks and Spencers or Tescos while others simply disappear.
Regards,
Ian
I must apologise as I thought I'd replied at the time and haven't really been back here for ages...
Yes I've spotted a few of the trade and business directories on another website but I'm always open to new sites with these trade directories. Or any Bratts and Hobsons (or anyone else) out there who can shed a little light on these families. I'm descended from a Bratt but I'm not after my share of anything!! (Joking) I'm really just looking to see how where my Bratt line fits with these other Bratts.
Naturally from a historical perspective it would be intriguing to know just what happened to all these grocery shops - did they retire, become bankrupt, were they taken over, did they sell out? These things happen and its funny to think that some businesses go on to become Marks and Spencers or Tescos while others simply disappear.
Regards,
Ian
5
Cheshire / Re: James Wrench born 1820/Elizabeth Humphreys born 1816 - both Kingsley
« on: Friday 15 September 06 23:38 BST (UK) »
Hi Agric-Lad5,
Sorry I've only just spotted this - I thought Rootschat sent emails when someone replied as I haven't received any for aged and thought I'd just take a look!
It does sound like you've researched this thoroughly as you've certainly got a lot of detail on Elizabeth and James. I'm wondering whether you'd be willing to share any further details on the Marrow family - or for that matter on the Humphreys as I wonder whether Elizabeth and her first husband William had any offspring - half-siblings to Daniel and John Wrench.
Thanks very much.
Ian
PS for instance I 'know' of the following children who I assumed were all Wrenches -
- female who married a Shallcross (their son was William Shallcross born in 1855),
- my ancestor Mary (Wrench?) born in 1838-9 although given this birthdate perhaps she was born a Humphreys...
- then the 2 brothers Daniel and John Wrench born in 1857 and 1859-60 respectively. Perhaps these are the only 2 born as Wrench?
Can you shed any further light on these? Were there any other children to either marriage? Thanks.
Sorry I've only just spotted this - I thought Rootschat sent emails when someone replied as I haven't received any for aged and thought I'd just take a look!
It does sound like you've researched this thoroughly as you've certainly got a lot of detail on Elizabeth and James. I'm wondering whether you'd be willing to share any further details on the Marrow family - or for that matter on the Humphreys as I wonder whether Elizabeth and her first husband William had any offspring - half-siblings to Daniel and John Wrench.
Thanks very much.
Ian
PS for instance I 'know' of the following children who I assumed were all Wrenches -
- female who married a Shallcross (their son was William Shallcross born in 1855),
- my ancestor Mary (Wrench?) born in 1838-9 although given this birthdate perhaps she was born a Humphreys...
- then the 2 brothers Daniel and John Wrench born in 1857 and 1859-60 respectively. Perhaps these are the only 2 born as Wrench?
Can you shed any further light on these? Were there any other children to either marriage? Thanks.
6
Europe / Cattaneo family from Italy
« on: Sunday 11 June 06 17:27 BST (UK) »
Hello all,
In tracing a couple of other immigrant Italian families, I was amazed to keep finding another Italian immigrant family inter-connected through business or cropping up as neighbours and therefore I'm trying to do a bit of research into their background.
The family is the Cattaneo family, who seemed to have originated in the Lombardy area of Italy and originally set up (I gather) in Croydon. However there's plenty of evidence of a network of Cattaneo watchmakers and jewellers across England. Henry, Anthony and Joseph operated in York, Ann and Seraphim in Durham, Peter and Pasqual in Croydon and Joseph in Folkestone. In addition there were a couple of companies such as Cattaneo & Co of Briggate Leeds, Cattaneo & Fletcher on Edgbaston Street Birmingham and a third family company (this time of cutlery merchants) named Vipont and Cattaneo based in Leeds and who knows how many others...
Does anyone have any information or ideas on tracing further background on this family please. (I'm not particularly looking for lookups at this stage as I am in the process of doing some myself but really it's ideas, information, sources of biographies if there are any...
Thanks,
Ian
In tracing a couple of other immigrant Italian families, I was amazed to keep finding another Italian immigrant family inter-connected through business or cropping up as neighbours and therefore I'm trying to do a bit of research into their background.
The family is the Cattaneo family, who seemed to have originated in the Lombardy area of Italy and originally set up (I gather) in Croydon. However there's plenty of evidence of a network of Cattaneo watchmakers and jewellers across England. Henry, Anthony and Joseph operated in York, Ann and Seraphim in Durham, Peter and Pasqual in Croydon and Joseph in Folkestone. In addition there were a couple of companies such as Cattaneo & Co of Briggate Leeds, Cattaneo & Fletcher on Edgbaston Street Birmingham and a third family company (this time of cutlery merchants) named Vipont and Cattaneo based in Leeds and who knows how many others...
Does anyone have any information or ideas on tracing further background on this family please. (I'm not particularly looking for lookups at this stage as I am in the process of doing some myself but really it's ideas, information, sources of biographies if there are any...
Thanks,
Ian
7
Lancashire / Bratt grocers
« on: Sunday 11 June 06 16:46 BST (UK) »
Hi all,
Does anyone know of any sources of info or photos of a family of grocers in the Manchester area during the mid 19th C please?
In particular there was a company called Bratt and Hobson Ltd who were wholesale grocers and grocery, cheese, ham, bacon and tea dealers. It also seems this company was an agent for WA Gilbey Ltd wine and spirit merchants. The Bratt and Hobson company would seem to be at least part owned by Peter Bratt of Bowden and had shops/stores at over a dozen addresses including Manchester Road, Swan Street, Broad Street, Chester Road, Oldham Street, Pinmill Brow, Regent Road, Stockport Road, Wilmslow Road, Great Ancoats Street, Market Street, Victoria Street, Stretford Road and Chapel Street.
However there is also evidence of another firm which was probably related - Bratt and Dobb who were also tea dealers and grocers at 89 Chorlton Road with a Thomas Bratt one of the partners.
It did seem that the Bratts were well-established as shopkeepers as there's further evidence of a greengrocer called William Bratt at 30 Greek Street, Amy Bratt a shopkeeper at 19 Silas Street, Albert Bratt a grocer at 88 Bolton Road, James Bratt a grocer at 74 Water Street and Daniel Bratt a shopkeeper in Butler Street.
Can anyone shed any light on this family of traders which certainly seems to have disappeared from today's shopping streets?
Regards,
Ian
Does anyone know of any sources of info or photos of a family of grocers in the Manchester area during the mid 19th C please?
In particular there was a company called Bratt and Hobson Ltd who were wholesale grocers and grocery, cheese, ham, bacon and tea dealers. It also seems this company was an agent for WA Gilbey Ltd wine and spirit merchants. The Bratt and Hobson company would seem to be at least part owned by Peter Bratt of Bowden and had shops/stores at over a dozen addresses including Manchester Road, Swan Street, Broad Street, Chester Road, Oldham Street, Pinmill Brow, Regent Road, Stockport Road, Wilmslow Road, Great Ancoats Street, Market Street, Victoria Street, Stretford Road and Chapel Street.
However there is also evidence of another firm which was probably related - Bratt and Dobb who were also tea dealers and grocers at 89 Chorlton Road with a Thomas Bratt one of the partners.
It did seem that the Bratts were well-established as shopkeepers as there's further evidence of a greengrocer called William Bratt at 30 Greek Street, Amy Bratt a shopkeeper at 19 Silas Street, Albert Bratt a grocer at 88 Bolton Road, James Bratt a grocer at 74 Water Street and Daniel Bratt a shopkeeper in Butler Street.
Can anyone shed any light on this family of traders which certainly seems to have disappeared from today's shopping streets?
Regards,
Ian
8
Warwickshire / Re: Poncia Building, Edgbaston, Birmingham
« on: Sunday 11 June 06 00:52 BST (UK) »
Hi Jim,
Sorry I've been tied up with other things lately... although until recently I couldn't add much to what we already know.
I simply recall seeing this address on one of the censuses (1861 1881 or 1901 I think) and as such this building must have existed and maybe somewhere there's a photo.
I too recently have unearthed a whole lot of information via trade directories such as the following and perhaps another angle might be if anyone knows of photos or info on these businesses or addresses please.
- John Poncia wholesale cutler and dealer in toys, fancy goods and jewellery between 1828 and 1835 at 21 Worcester Street/1 Pershore Street.
- Peter Poncia & Son cutler, hardwareman and dealer in fancy articles, toys and jewellery between 1830 and 1845 at 34 Worcester Street/54 Worcester Street/61 Inge Street
- John Poncia & Son, hardware wholesaler, cutler and jeweller, importer and dealer in fancy goods and toys between 1835 and 1867 at 54 Worcester Street/Sherbourne Road/50 Pershore Street/8 Gough Road/128 Gough Road and Chad House, Chad Road.
It is thought this second John Poncia was also Lord Mayor of Birmingham. Does anyone know if there are any photos or biographies of past Lord Mayors please?
In passing does anyone know what was a 'Birmingham, London and Sheffield' warehouse? This seems to be a common expression in many trade directories of this time. I assume this would suggest the role of wholesaler in manufactures from these cities, but does it have any other connotation such as a network of warehouses in these cities?
Lastly there seems to be several address changes as indicated above. Some could have been home addresses but many seem to be simple changes in numbers on the same street. Am I right to think that street names and numbers did not become established until the late 19th C or could there be any other explanations? I doubt they expanded to several addreses on the same street!
Regards,
Ian
Sorry I've been tied up with other things lately... although until recently I couldn't add much to what we already know.
I simply recall seeing this address on one of the censuses (1861 1881 or 1901 I think) and as such this building must have existed and maybe somewhere there's a photo.
I too recently have unearthed a whole lot of information via trade directories such as the following and perhaps another angle might be if anyone knows of photos or info on these businesses or addresses please.
- John Poncia wholesale cutler and dealer in toys, fancy goods and jewellery between 1828 and 1835 at 21 Worcester Street/1 Pershore Street.
- Peter Poncia & Son cutler, hardwareman and dealer in fancy articles, toys and jewellery between 1830 and 1845 at 34 Worcester Street/54 Worcester Street/61 Inge Street
- John Poncia & Son, hardware wholesaler, cutler and jeweller, importer and dealer in fancy goods and toys between 1835 and 1867 at 54 Worcester Street/Sherbourne Road/50 Pershore Street/8 Gough Road/128 Gough Road and Chad House, Chad Road.
It is thought this second John Poncia was also Lord Mayor of Birmingham. Does anyone know if there are any photos or biographies of past Lord Mayors please?
In passing does anyone know what was a 'Birmingham, London and Sheffield' warehouse? This seems to be a common expression in many trade directories of this time. I assume this would suggest the role of wholesaler in manufactures from these cities, but does it have any other connotation such as a network of warehouses in these cities?
Lastly there seems to be several address changes as indicated above. Some could have been home addresses but many seem to be simple changes in numbers on the same street. Am I right to think that street names and numbers did not become established until the late 19th C or could there be any other explanations? I doubt they expanded to several addreses on the same street!
Regards,
Ian
9
Warwickshire / Re: Poncia Building, Edgbaston, Birmingham
« on: Saturday 18 March 06 23:32 GMT (UK) »
Hi Jim,
No apparently this was the name of the building, although it could have been a commercial building or even a terrace or part of a terrace rather than anything block-sized in the city centre itself...
thanks,
Ian
No apparently this was the name of the building, although it could have been a commercial building or even a terrace or part of a terrace rather than anything block-sized in the city centre itself...
thanks,
Ian