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Messages - Brooke Greville

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1
Buckinghamshire / Re: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left
« on: Wednesday 19 April 17 12:55 BST (UK)  »
Hi Ladybird

The last parts of your tracing is most definite Cecil Violet Enid (Greville) Ascroft.

Air Com Edward Irvine Bussell CBE was an Irish Canadian and in the early stages of his RAF career he was with the Canadian Air Force. Cecil Violet Ascroft would have gone over to Canada before she married her second husband Edward Irvine Bussell at Kensington Registry Office in 1927. Bussell remained a senior commanding officer in the RAF until his retirement, he was Douglas Bardars training officer and was on the select committee for the Bouncing Bomb in WW2. He lived at The White House, Old Avenue, Byfleet, Surrey.
I believe Bussell was also the founder of the Indian RAF.

In abt 1930 they had a child named Edward Brooke Bussell and after retiring from his mining career in Africa he purchased the Hamilton Hotel in Toronto, Canada, where he remains today.
In 1932 they had a second child Priscilla Bussell.

I could not confirm who the Mr and Mrs Greville are in 1894, both aged 42. Who of the Greville family was born abt 1842.

I wonder if Capt Brooke Southwell Greville and his daughter and others returned back to England from Africa in about 1913/14/15 by a British war boat or aircraft.

2
Buckinghamshire / Re: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left
« on: Tuesday 18 April 17 17:28 BST (UK)  »
Hello Ladyhawk
Nice work you are doing with Mark for the site.

This deposition I have printed out explaining the history relating around Otto Simon Henry Harcourt and Charles Walmer Harcourt Ascroft certainly adds up in a lot of areas. It shows that Cecil Violet Enid Ascroft (Greville) did actually give birth to her son Peter in 1916 at the Harcourt's house, matching up with what the statement indicates. I also have copies of the birth certificate relating to this child. I also have the marriage certificates for the two marriages of Cecil V E Greville, to Ascroft and Bussell.

The statement indicates Muriel Ascroft married Otto S H Harcourt (Ascroft) in 1892, so this date fits into a gap of Otto's marriages.

Q.  Could it be that Otto being an active Gold miner/engineer sought marriage with Muriel because of the gold mining interest with the Blaauwbank Gold Mines at Magliesburg.

Q.  Would the history of the Blaauwbank Gold Mine show who were the owners or shareholders, this would confirm any interests by these families if they were involved, Harcourt, Greville, Ascroft, Bussell, Jennings, Symons.

Q.  There has always been talk of Ankerwycke Harcourt sons presumed missing while gold mining and prospecting either in Australia or Africa.

In the statement it indicates Mrs Muriel Ascroft, wife of Otto did speak to Captain Greville about her sons inheritance to relieve Captain Greville's concerns about his daughter marrying Charles Ascroft. This must have been done before the marriage in 1912 of Charles Harcourt Ascroft and Cecil Greville. So was Muriel Ascroft (Harcourt) still married to Otto SH Ascroft (Harcourt) abt 1900 to 1911 or could they have been separated before her son Charles married Cecil Greville in 1912.

Otto died in Milburn, Australia 1915.

Q. Is there evidence that Captain Brooke Southwell Greville, his wife, his daughter Mrs C Ascroft (or C Greville/ or C Harcourt?) or Charles Ascroft had travelled to England at the beginning of WW1, possibly 1913/14.

Q. Did the Greville and Harcourt/Ascroft/Bussell families have any mining interests in Africa. Captain/Maj Brooke Southwell Greville Kings Messenger worked at the War Office during WW1 and travelled around the world doing his job, where in Egypt persons tried to assassinate him for the messages he was carrying. He was also attacked in Europe, after these episodes he was the only British Army officer allowed to wear a silver pistol. His sons took after him by becoming Colonels of the HLI, brave lot by the sounds of it, so should be easy to trace.

Q. Is there evidence Charles Walmer (Harcourt) Ascroft came via boat to England from 1913 to 1920, or if he even served in the European war theatre during WW1 and got back to England after WW1 from Europe. It may have even been on a military vessel.

Note.
Cecil Violet Enid (Greville) Ascroft and her second husband Edward Irvine Bussell had a son Brooke Bussell b.1930. The son lived and worked as a mining engineer in the Natal area until the 1990's and his mother Cecil Violet Enid Bussell lived with her daughter Pricilla in a house with servants supplied by the mining company until she died in 1984, aged 88, I believe in the Petermaritzburg area.

This will get your investigative genes going.

3
Buckinghamshire / Re: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left
« on: Sunday 16 April 17 19:58 BST (UK)  »
The statement has been put in full, so no need to put in three parts.

I do have some queries though as there is evidence showing how complicated some families can be.

1) Does this statement tell the truth.

2) I am led to believe Cecil violet Enid Ascroft (Greville) returned to London on her own with her father Captain Brooke Greville in 1913 and they both worked at the War Office and lived in 7 or 9 Beaufort gardens, Knightsbridge, London and with the proceeds from the gold mine Captain Greville purchased Revells Hall, Bengeo. Captain Greville became a Kings Messenger during WW1.
I believe Charles Walmer Harcourt Ascroft stayed or was left behind in Africa, where he served in the forces and after the war in 1919 he came to England and traced his wife to Ankerwycke, finding her with a son that was not his (if he was in Africa it makes sense). Her son was named Peter Charles Algernon Greville Ascroft and he was conceived in Sep 1915 and was born in June 1916 at Longfield Farm, Ankerwycke. Its possible Charles and his wife Cecil had a confrontation and Cecil called upon her 6ft 6in tall brother, Major Greville of the HLI to sort her husband out.

3) Cecil Violets relative Baron Greville, Charles Beresford Fulke Greville worked and socialised very closely with each other at the War Office and family functions and Cecil Violet conceived her child during September 1915.
The Greville family, who may have been very embarrassed moved their errant pregnant family member to Ankerwycke under the pretext that the child was a Harcourt child, but in actual fact, the child may have been the product of the intimate relationship between Cecil Violet and her married relative Baron Greville.

Was Charles Walmer Harcourt Ascroft serving in Africa or Europe during WW1, especially during 1913-1916.

Cecil Violet Enid Greville Ascroft was an elegant 6ft 2in Lady. When she arrived in England abt 1913 and she reverted back to her Greville name and considered herself single.

After 1919/20 she placed her young four year old son Peter Charles Algernon Greville Ascroft into a private boys school until he was sixteen and she went back to London and socialised as a single lady until she met her future second husband Air Comdr Edward Irvine Bussell CBE RAF who she married in 1927 at Kensington Registry Office.
Her young son aged just four was swept under the carpet by all parties it seems, as he was considered an embarrassment.
He is either a Harcourt child or the son of Baron Greville. Try and sort this one out.

4
Buckinghamshire / Re: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left
« on: Sunday 16 April 17 19:20 BST (UK)  »
Hi
I have printed the content word for word of a statement I received 19/12/2007.

This will be in 3 parts.

STATEMENT OF JEAN DESTANNE DE BERNIS
The ancestry of Peter Greville Ascroft was attested by Captain Guy Elliot Harcourt of Ankerwycke in a sworn deposition in 1926. The deposition was transcribed by Mrs Cecil Bussell and given to her niece Mrs Joan Sutherland, later Joan, Lady Carlton de Wiart, daughter of George McKechnie and Muriel Joan McKetchnie, formally Greville, daughter of Captain Brooke Southwell Greville of Pietermaritzburg, Natal, who married 1879, Pricilla Clough,b.1855 in Wynberg, South Africa, daughter of Edward Buerdsill (Buerdsail) Clough.
Captain Harcourt stated that Peter Greville Ascroft, who was born at his house at Longfield Farm, Ankerwycke, on the 27th June 1916 was his cousin. He stated that Peter Grevillle Ascroft was the son of his cousin, Charles Walmer Harcourt Ascroft, b. 11 May 1894, who was the son of Otto Simon Henry Harcourt, b.1849, who was the son of George Simon Harcourt of Ankerwycke, b.1807.
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt married at Wynberg, Cape Colony, on 5 June 1892, Muriel Ascroft, b. 1856, only daughter of James Ascroft, b. 1834 in Philadelphia (son of Hugh Ascroft or Ashcroft), of Philadelphia, by his wife Charlotte Ascroft, formerly Jennings, or Jennens, daughter of James Jennings of Magliesburg, son of James Jennings or jennens of Magliesburg who was b. 1816 at Londonbridge, Deverill, Wiltshire.
Hugh Ashcraft, or Ashcroft, or Ascroft, great nephew of John Thomas Ashcroft of Bird-in-the-Hand Court, London, by a Miss Tongue, had emigrated from Liverpool to Cape Colony, with his cousin, Loisa Ann Ashcraft (or Ashcroft or Ascroft) in 1828. Hugh Ashcroft (or Ascroft) then emigrated to America and landed in Philadelphia Pa. in 1832. His cousin, Louisa Ann Ashcroft (or Ascroft), b. 1799, remained in South Africa and m. at Wynberg July 4, 1830, ( diary entry of John Pears says 2 June 1830), John Pears, b Duns, Scotland in 1790, who landed at Cape Town, 3 March, 1829, Minister of Glen Lynden and had a daughter, Ann Christian Pears, b. 1831, who m. 1855, Alfred Everitt Murrey and had a son John Pears Murrey, b. 1866 in East London, South Africa, the grandson of Loisa Ann Ashcraft ( Ashcroft on marriage certificate), and cousin to James Ascoft, who emigrated from Philadelphia to South Africa in 1853.
In 1893, James Ascroft (grandson of John Thomas Ashcraft of London), father of Muriel Harcourt died. In October 1895 James Jennings (or Jennens) died. Her husband Otto Harcourt then assumed by sign manual, the name Ascroft, in order to inherit (under the terms of his father-in-Law's will), a shareholding in the Blaauwbank mine. The witness to the sign manual of Otto Harcourt wae the executor of James Ascroft's estate Gordon Symons of Johannesburg ( who late married Otto Harcourts sister, Agnes Matilda, dau. of George Simon Harcourt of Ankerwycke, at Wynberg, on April 7 1896.
Otto Ascroft, formally Harcourt, and his wife Mrs Muriel Ascroft, formally Harcourt (born Ascroft), had one son, baptized Charles Walmer Harcourt Ascroft, on 30 December, 1895 at Walmer, South Africa.
On 30 May 1912, at Pietermaritzbuurg, Charles Walmer Harcourt Ascroft, South African Mounted Police, m. Cecil Violet Enid Greville, b. 2 June 1896, youngest daughter of Captain Brooke Greville. Cecil Greville had been attending Wilmot's Select School for ladies in Wynberg when she met and was seduced (in the words of Captain Harcourts deposition 'ruined'), by Charles Ascroft and married him. Initially, her father captain Greville repudiated the marriage on the grounds that he had not, as required by law, given his consent; and on the grounds that his daughter, being only fifteen years old, could not contract a legal marriage.
Charles Ascroft's mother, Mrs Muriel Ascroft, formally Harcourt, then aquainted Captain Greville with the ancestry of her son and of his expectations from the Ankerwycke Estate. She then offered to settle on her son a substantial interest in the Blaauwbank gold mine. It appears that Captain Greville, satisfied that his son-in-law was of noble family and had prospects, then relented.
It is not known how, but in 1913, Charles Ascroft had been, in the words of Captain Harcourt's deposition, 'swindled' out of his share of the Blaauwbank Gold mine by his solicitor, and he was ruined. Captain Brooke Greville paid his son-in-laws debts and in 1913, Charles and Cecil Ascroft travelled to England, seeking help from his cousin Captain Guy Harcouurt. Captain Harcourt offered his cousins Longfield Farm at a peppercorn rent and they lived there until Peter Greville Ascroft was born in 1916.In thw words of Captain Harcourt, it was an 'abusive marriage', resulting in a terrible scene at Longfield in 1919, in which Cecil Greville's brother, Major Brooke Greville 'thrashed' Charles Ascroft, who then abandoned his wife and child and whom nothing more is known.
Signed: Jean Destanne de Bernis
Dated: 4th day of November 2007

5
Buckinghamshire / Re: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left
« on: Saturday 15 April 17 19:07 BST (UK)  »
I must thank you for your hard work in answering some questions, but there is a concern here that I cant understand.

This Charles Walmer (Harcourt) Ascroft is not showing in your content as a child for Otto Simon Henry Harcourt, I hope we have the same Otto of the Ankerwycke Harcourts.
We know Charles Walmer Ascroft exists but I have a document that indicates Charles Walmer Ascroft is in actual fact an elder Harcourt son and assumed the name Ascroft to inherit shares in the Gold Mines at Blaaubank, Magliesburg around the 1912 period.
The name Ascroft I think comes from his relative James Ascroft b abt 1834 Philadelphia and this family is closely linked to a James Jennings the magliesburg gold miner in Africa and Australia.

There must be a simple explanation or a mysterious case, because in this document I have, it indicates the father of Miss Cecil Violet Enid Greville was against her marrying a commoner until the mother of Charles Walmer explained he was of the Harcourt family and was due to inherit the gold mines, so the father Maj Brooke Southwell Greville relented. I also believe that Cecil Violet Enid Greville was born in 1896 making her just 16 when she married in 1912.

It is understood this gold mine was swindled away from Charles Walmer Ascroft in 1913 by his Father-in-Law Maj Greville with the help of the family solicitor a Mr Gordon Symonds/Simmonds of Johanesbourg. By coincidence Maj Greville and his daughter returned back to England in 1913/14 by ship from Durban on their own, the proud owners of a gold mine.

There was talk that one or two Harcourt sons went missing whilst prospecting for gold, I often wondered if Charles was one of them.

If this Charles Walmer Ascroft (Harcourt?) was the eldest son of Otto Simon Henry Harcourt it should be documented and would add a strong family branch to the Harcourt family. He existed, so his life should be on record somewhere. A lot of family and geographic facts tie up with what's being recognised now.

HELP.


6
Buckinghamshire / Re: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left
« on: Friday 14 April 17 16:03 BST (UK)  »
Hello Mark
Thankyou for this information, but some parts have me stumped. This Otto Simon Henry Harcourt is I believe the eldest son of George Harcourt's second marriage to a Gertrude Charlotte Lucas married abt 1846.

From what I have been told is that Otto Simon Henry Harcourt married a Muriel Ascroft abt 1892 and they had a son named Charles Walmer Harcourt b abt 1895. This son later used his mothers name Ascroft to enable him to inherit a gold mine in Magliesburg, Africa.

I also am led to believe Charles Walmer Harcourt (Ascroft) married in 1912 a Cecil Violet Enid Greville at Pietermaritzburg, Natal, Africa.

Is there any confirmation as to this person Charles and did he have siblings.

Thankyou

7
Buckinghamshire / Re: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left
« on: Wednesday 12 April 17 18:37 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: BushInn1746 on Monday 10 April 17 22:27 BST (UK)

Thankyou Mark.
Ronnie Greville resided at Polesdon Lacy at the time of his death in 1908 and I wonder if these Harcourts who attended where from the Ankerwycke Harcourts.
Margaret Greville (Mrs Greville) Ronnies wife became a very well known hostess and was well connected to the Royal family.
Regarding Otto Simon Henry Harcourt, son of George Harcourt and Gertrude Lucas, have you ever come across confirmation as to Ottos childrens names, its his sons I need to trace.
Regards
Brooke.


The Manchester Courier, Friday, 10 April 1908.

In Memory of Captain Greville.
There was a large attendance yesterday at a memorial service at St. Margaret's, Westminster, in connection with the death of Captain the Hon. Ronald Greville, son of Lord Greville, who for some years represented East Bradford in the Conservative interest. Among those present were the Marchioness of Breadalbane, Sir E. Sassoon, M.P., the Earl of Crewe, Lord Colebrook, Sir E. Cassel, Mr. Younger, M.P., Mr Harcourt, M.P., and Mrs Harcourt, ...

8
Buckinghamshire / Re: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left
« on: Monday 10 April 17 18:04 BST (UK)  »
There is an important family member named Otto Henry Simon Harcourt of Ankerwycke b1848, Milburn, Australia and it is his children I would like to trace, especially the male line. Otto was the eldest son of George Harcourt and his second wife Gertrude Lucas.
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt married a Muriel Ascroft circa 1892 in Cape Colony, Africa, who was their son.

9
Australia / Re: Greville family, gold miners in Australia.
« on: Wednesday 28 September 16 08:20 BST (UK)  »
Thanks everyone for your help
The Greville gold miners may have been around the Durban area and I am sure I have seen the name Milburn/Milborne/Milburn, correct me if I am wrong, I will post if I come across it.
The Greville name may actually be Fulke Greville and there are other names coming up in areas of search related to this Greville, they are Harcourt and James Jennings Gold miners.

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