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Messages - wurding

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1
London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: Freedom registers for 1700s
« on: Monday 01 August 22 16:24 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Hillhurst on Wednesday 30 March 22 19:47 BST (UK)
Is this 1750 record of any interest? It mentions Merton, so there's a possible Wimbledon connection.

Reference:   QS2/6/1750/Xms/54
Title: Report of Thomas Rowsell, inspector of cattle, notifying outbreaks of distemper in Merton and Battersea, and reporting on his activities in general
Date:   1750
Held by:   Surrey History Centre, not available at The National Archives [TNA]

Link: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/8bb1fd0c-fdf3-4854-91f7-c3b278f1cb90

Below is the Surrey History Centre's link for the above, plus a related 1748 record:

https://www.surreyarchives.org.uk/collections/getrecord/SHCOL_QS_16_145_48

https://www.surreyarchives.org.uk/collections/getrecord/SHCOL_QS_16_140_15

I acquired two of these and transcribed them. I am posting them here for anyone else to reference in case they might be useful. I very much suspect it is the same man, although I cannot confirm it except I find it unlikely two men of the same name occupied similar roles in the same region simultaneously.

Petition 1746

To the worshipfull His Majesties of the Peace for the County of Surrey at their … sessions at Kingston now assembled. The humble petition of Thos Rowsell sheweth that the contagious distemper appearing among the horned cattle in the West Division of the hundred of Brixton … the County, so long since as February 1746, your petitioner was conformable to His Majesty’s proclamations appointed by George Medcalfe and Zachery Chambers Esq, two of his Majesty’s Justices of the Peace (acting in and for the the said Division, as appears by an appointment bearing date 18th February 1746) under the hand and seals of said George Medcalfe and Zachary Chambers Esq and your petitioner humbly makes known to your worships that he hath been at extraordinary expense and trouble in the due execution of his said Office to this past time for the fruit of which, your petitioner refers himself to His Majesty’s Justices of the Peace acting for the said Division, now present. He therefore humbly hopes your Worships now assembled will be pleased to grant him such an allowance as so you shall deem meets for his extraordinary care and trouble for the due performance of his said Office. – and your petitioner as is duty bound shall ever pray …

Report of 1750

To the worshipful his majesties justices of the peace now assembled at their general quarter sessions held at st. Margarets hill in Southwark in the county of Surrey –

the humble report of Thomas Rowsell – Inspector –

Do humbly certify and report to your worships that between 5th of December and 3rd of January last the contagious distemper appeared amongst the horned cattle of Mr Berryman of the parish of Morton, and said Mr Berryman caused four cows And 1 heifer which were infected to be killed and 5 cows that died of the said this temper. All of them as well those that were killed as those that died to be buried conformable to his majesty’s orders in (Lawneshll ??) made concerning the killing and burying the distempered cattle and I also certify that the said distemper also appeared amongst the horned cattle of Mr Amery at Battersea and that between 29th of December and 6th of January last three of his cows died of the said distemper and were buried agreeable to his majesties said directions: and that Mr Lans of the said parish of Battersea hath one cow now infected with the contagious distemper and I likewise further most humbly beg leave to inform your worships that during the time the said Mr berryman’s cattle continued ill, I daily visited them and took special care that the directions given in his majesties orders of council were in all respects punctually obeyed. And in order that his majesties last orders might be strictly obeyed, I did so soon as I was made acquainted there with inform all the graziers, farmers and other people who now owners of cattle that live in the division of which I am so happy as to be appointed inspector of the said order and the purpose thereof and I further certify that all the other cattle in the said divisions are hearty and well, it being my first and principal care to to ride round the division twice a week, at least, to visit the cattle and prevent as much as may be any irregularities in the management of the distempered cattle and as I have hitherto made it my principal business to discharge the duty of my office with the greatest diligence so I will continue to do so as long as it is your worships’ pleasure to continue me in the said office of inspector.

All which I humbly certify and report to your worships, Thomas Rowsell

2
London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: Freedom registers for 1700s
« on: Sunday 03 April 22 13:27 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Bookbox on Friday 01 April 22 23:13 BST (UK)
Quote from: wurding on Friday 01 April 22 10:37 BST (UK)
I found this manorial map of wimbledon in 1787
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/N13631797

Wimbledon (Surrey) manorial court rolls 1669-1729 and accounts 1788-98
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/N13607314

and finally this, for some reason in the Northamptonshire Archives, but includes the Surrey (Wimbledon, etc) deeds, legal and trust papers, manorial records, rentals, accounts, estate and Spencer family papers 12th-20th cent and deeds
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/N13730735

Do you think all of these are worth chasing up? or perhaps just the last one?

Manorial map (Wandsworth Heritage Service)
I doubt this will show names of tenants, more likely layout and boundaries, perhaps field-names. Why not email the archive, tell them what you are trying to find out, and ask them what the map shows? In my experience the staff at Wandsworth are extremely helpful ...
https://www.better.org.uk/library/london/wandsworth/wandsworth-heritage-service

Court rolls and accounts (Surrey History Centre)
The rolls are listed by date in the SHC catalogue here ...
https://www.surreyarchives.org.uk/collections/getrecord/SHCOL_369 (click the Browse tab)

Court rolls can be a great source, and very name-rich. If your family were copyhold tenants of the manor, the rolls may contain useful family information if properties were passed down generations of the family.

The SHC has a basic introduction to manorial records on their website
https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/culture-and-leisure/history-centre/researchers/guides/manorial-records

But this is an extensive collection, and unless these Wimbledon rolls have been name-indexed, you will not be able to order copies of specific entries. You can email the SHC and ask if there is any indexing. If not, and if you can’t go and research them yourself, you can use the SHC’s research and copying service, which is excellent, or engage an independent researcher to visit and search the rolls for you.
https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/culture-and-leisure/history-centre/researchers/research-service

As these court rolls pre-date 1733, you may also want to ask if they are in English or Latin.

These rolls have been digitised by FamilySearch, but they can only be accessed at an LDS Family History Centre or Affiliated Library (which includes the National Archives).
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/635169?availability=Family%20History%20Library

Spencer papers (Northamptonshire Archives)
Some of the Wimbledon records will be held at Northampton because the Spencer family seat was at Althorp, and the Northamptonshire County Record Office is likely to be the main repository for the family’s papers.

They will probably be time-consuming to research, unless there is detailed indexing. As to how useful they are, it will depend how much there is for the Wimbledon estates in particular. Rentals can be a particularly good source, but it isn’t clear from the catalogue whether rentals survive specifically for Wimbledon. I’m not having much luck with Northampton’s own online catalogue, which seems to get stuck mid-search.
http://nro.adlibhosting.com/search/expert

It may be best to email the archive and ask. Again, they offer a research service – see here ...
https://www.northamptonshire.gov.uk/councilservices/archives-and-heritage/northamptonshire-archives/Pages/archives-research-service.aspx

This advice is very valuable and saves a lot of time, thank you

3
London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: Freedom registers for 1700s
« on: Friday 01 April 22 10:37 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Bookbox on Friday 01 April 22 00:42 BST (UK)
Quote from: wurding on Thursday 31 March 22 10:10 BST (UK)
I presume the land TR farmed was that of Wimbledon Manor House completed by Duchess of Marlborough. Should I include that in my search terms?

Two suggestions:

(1) Use TNA Discovery Advanced Search

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/advanced-search
Select the tab Search for Record Creators
Enter Marlborough Wimbledon
Click Spencer Family
Use Ctrl+F to find references to Wimbledon

OR

(2) Search the Manorial Documents Register

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/manor-search
In Search by Manor, enter Wimbledon

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F237680
Scroll down to find the relevant dates

None of these records is likely to be online – you will need to contact the various record offices to ask if there is any indexing, and whether copies of records can be supplied.

Thank you for this detailed set of instructions.

I found this manorial map of wimbledon in 1787
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/N13631797
Wimbledon (Surrey) manorial court rolls 1669-1729 and accounts 1788-98
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/N13607314

and finally this, for some reason in the Northamptonshire Archives, but includes the Surrey (Wimbledon, etc) deeds, legal and trust papers, manorial records, rentals, accounts, estate and Spencer family papers 12th-20th cent and deeds
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/N13730735

Do you think all of these are worth chasing up? or perhaps just the last one?


Perhaps of relevance, so sorry I did not mention it before, but in addition to Thomas Rowsell snr farming the Duchess of Marlborough's land in 1735, I know John Spencer 1st Earl inherited that land in 1744 and the Spencer family seems to have 'looked after' the Rowsells beyond that date because  throughout the 1780's and 90's Thomas' son John resided at a property in Wandsworth owned by Earl John Spencer.

4
London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: Freedom registers for 1700s
« on: Thursday 31 March 22 15:50 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Bookbox on Thursday 31 March 22 15:33 BST (UK)
Quote from: wurding on Thursday 31 March 22 14:45 BST (UK)
John's brother Thomas' apprenticeship (The National Archives of the UK (TNA); Kew, Surrey, England; Collection: Board of Stamps: Apprenticeship Books: Series IR 1; Class: IR 1; Piece: 18) only lists his father as far as I can remember ... this led me to think that his father Thomas senior was his master for the apprenticeship.

The reference for Thomas in IR 1 reads:

1748
Saturday May ye 7th
No. - 3   
Masters’ Names, Place of Abode & Trade - Will. Webb of Wandsworth in Surry Butcher
App(rentice)s’ Names & Fathers &c - Thos son of Thos Rowsell

So Thomas Rowsell junior was apprenticed to William Webb. There is nothing here to suggest that Webb was a member of the Butchers’ Company of London, nor that Rowsell senior was a butcher. These are essentially tax records, and that sort of information would not be relevant here.

Note that the date given is when the master paid the tax, not when the apprentice was bound.

Thank you for looking that up. Thomas Jnr was 14 on that date and this is the age of apprentices as far as I understand so it must be close to the date the apprenticeship began.

Based on what you have told me, I am unlikely to find anything about Thomas Rowsell snr at the Guildhall library records of the Butcher's company, correct?



5
London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: Freedom registers for 1700s
« on: Thursday 31 March 22 14:45 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Bookbox on Thursday 31 March 22 11:00 BST (UK)
Quote from: wurding on Thursday 31 March 22 10:10 BST (UK)
Members of the livery cos are not necessarily employed in that profession primarily so his being a farmer does not preclude his membership of the company of Butchers. His son Thomas was apprenticed into the Butchers co 7 May 1748 and his father Thomas is listed so I think it may be by right of patrimony he was admitted for the apprenticeship.

Some confusion here, I think?

There is no ‘admission by patrimony’ in relation to apprenticeship into a City livery company. If the apprentice’s master belonged to a Company, the binding would be recorded in the Company’s books, indentures signed, premium and tax paid, etc. The apprentice’s father need not have been a member of the same or of any other livery company. Hundreds of London apprentices came from families within and outside the metropolitan area who were not connected to a City livery company in any way. Naming the father in a binding record is standard practice, regardless of his status.

Admission to Freedom of the City of London is a different matter. I think this may be what you have in mind when you reference ‘patrimony’? Admission to Freedom of the City was gained in one of three ways -- by servitude (completing an apprenticeship within a City livery company), patrimony (father being made free of a City livery company before the son’s birth) or redemption (buying your way in).

I hope this clarifies things for you.

Yes it does, thank you. I had understood that many men from this family obtained Freedom of the City and some of them completed apprenticeships in livery companies while others obtained it through patrimony.

The document for John Rowsell makes it clear he was apprentice to his uncle Evan Pugh and not to his father Thomas Rowsell, yet John's brother Thomas' apprenticeship (The National Archives of the UK (TNA); Kew, Surrey, England; Collection: Board of Stamps: Apprenticeship Books: Series IR 1; Class: IR 1; Piece: 18) only lists his father as far as I can remember (i can no longer access the document on Ancestry even though I paid for access to the record, but they have recently changed things so you lose access to your documents while you are not a paying subscriber!) - this led me to think that his father Thomas senior was his master for the apprenticeship.

6
London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: Freedom registers for 1700s
« on: Thursday 31 March 22 10:25 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Hillhurst on Wednesday 30 March 22 22:04 BST (UK)
Find My Past have this 1754 transcript record (no image) in case it's of any interest:

Surrey Feet Of Fines 1558-1760
Name: Benjamin Rosewell
Location: Wimbledon, Surrey
Year: 1754

Feet of Fines were documents of a fictitious suit of law created to obtain a secure transfer of land.

ADDED:

Surrey Feet Of Fines 1558-1760
Name: Benjamin Rosewell
Location: Croydon
Year: 1753

I think it highly likely this Benjamin is related to Thomas due to their proximity. Also Thomas had a great grandson named Benjamin born in 1820. Not certain of a connection but it is probably worth my following up and researching more. Thank you.

7
London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: Freedom registers for 1700s
« on: Thursday 31 March 22 10:22 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Hillhurst on Wednesday 30 March 22 19:47 BST (UK)
Is this 1750 record of any interest? It mentions Merton, so there's a possible Wimbledon connection.

Reference:   QS2/6/1750/Xms/54
Title: Report of Thomas Rowsell, inspector of cattle, notifying outbreaks of distemper in Merton and Battersea, and reporting on his activities in general
Date:   1750
Held by:   Surrey History Centre, not available at The National Archives [TNA]

Link: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/8bb1fd0c-fdf3-4854-91f7-c3b278f1cb90

Below is the Surrey History Centre's link for the above, plus a related 1748 record:

https://www.surreyarchives.org.uk/collections/getrecord/SHCOL_QS_16_145_48

https://www.surreyarchives.org.uk/collections/getrecord/SHCOL_QS_16_140_15

Yes, thank you this looks promising. I will try and get copies of these documents so I can investigate further since I cannot see their contents from the links you kindly provided

8
London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: Freedom registers for 1700s
« on: Thursday 31 March 22 10:10 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: goldie61 on Wednesday 30 March 22 20:24 BST (UK)
"TNA" is The National Archives, as I mentioned at the beginning of my post - where the 1772 will is.
It would have been helpful if you had said you already had this will.
Is there some reason you think he may have also been a member of the Butchers' company - he gives his occupation as a farmer on this will, which the 'hit' on Ancestry would seem to confirm.

AH I see, thank you. Members of the livery cos are not necessarily employed in that profession primarily so his being a farmer does not preclude his membership of the company of Butchers. His son Thomas was apprenticed into the Butchers co 7 May 1748 and his father Thomas is listed so I think it may be by right of patrimony he was admitted for the apprenticeship.

Quote
You would have to search for where the records of the Duchess of Marlborough's estate are.
Try searching on TNA, or even a Google search.
(If you put "Duchess of Marlborough" estate archives into Google you will get some information. You need the inverted commas around "Duchess of Marlborough".)

Thanks for this advice. I presume the land TR farmed was that of Wimbledon Manor House completed by Duchess of Marlborough. Should I include that in my search terms?

Quote
It's aways a good idea to give what information you have, such as having his will, or knowing where the records of the Butchers' company were, as then those trying to help you do not spend their time searching around to try to find the same information you already hold.

It's also a good idea here on Rootschat, (as in life I find), that a 'thank you' to people who have spent their time trying to help you goes down well.

Sorry about that. Excuse my bad manners and thank you for your help.

9
London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: Freedom registers for 1700s
« on: Wednesday 30 March 22 18:27 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Bookbox on Wednesday 30 March 22 00:56 BST (UK)
Quote from: wurding on Tuesday 29 March 22 14:39 BST (UK)
I am told that I should consult the Freedom Registers for the period 1658-1753 [MS 6446/1] and 1694-1754 [Ms 6446/2].

The eldest Thomas Rowsell who I call Thomas Rowsell 1 was born either in London or Somerset (I think) in about 1702 ... I hope to find his origins through the freedom registers as other avenues of research have proved fruitless.

It would be unusual for freedom registers to provide information on a person's origins.

An apprenticeship binding, on the other hand, may provide the name and parish of residence of the father, but not always.

The records of the Butchers’ Company are at Guildhall Library (not at London Metropolitan Archives). They are listed here ...
https://search.lma.gov.uk/LMA_DOC/CLC_L_BI.PDF

As your profile states you are in London, you could email them to book a visit and order the relevant documents in advance.
guildhall.library@cityoflondon.gov.uk

If you aren’t able do that, you could engage an independent researcher to visit on your behalf. I may be wrong, but I believe the LMA’s Paid Document Research Service no longer undertakes research commissions for records held at Guildhall.

Yes I know that they are at Guildhall library. I do not live in London though so it may be a while before I can go and check. Apparently I have to go in person, but I see the apprenticeship bindings may be my only hope at this stage

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