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Messages - Hall and MacCormac

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1
Armagh / Re: Joseph Hall, distiller and Colonel, c. 1729-1804 in Lurgan, County Armagh
« on: Saturday 27 December 14 06:35 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: Hall and MacCormac on Saturday 27 December 14 06:28 GMT (UK)
Quote from: hall and walsh on Saturday 27 December 14 06:20 GMT (UK)
Hi again - some other earlier references that you may or may not have seen:
1693 william hall lurgan ch of ireland cess tax list
1713  Thomas Hall, Schoolmaster,  Living in Lurgan (Lurgan ancestry)
Joseph Hall  the elder, In Derry in 1750 . A “founder” (Lurgan ancestry)
Joseph Hall, living in Shankill.  shipping agent  b abt 1735 Savannah 1768 (Ros Davies website)
1799 ish - Joseph Hall and John Haslett dissolve partnership (Belfast paper)
1808 Joseph Hall lunatic - died pre 1825 (Belfast paper)
Lunatic dies before the death of his daughter rebecca in 1828
1833 sale of house in lurgan belonging to the late Joseph Hall 
Joseph Hall lunatic selling land at Mount Hall

Family of 'our' Joseph Hall and Anne Atkinson, married in 1810.
Children baptised Shankill Church of Ireland, Lurgan:
William 1814 (no details)
William John 1817  (to Australia 1849 ish)
Joseph Hall 1819 (to Australia 1841)
Anne Hall 1822 (married Henry Hunter in Lurgan)
Hamilton 1824 (? died toberhuney 1846)
Henry 1827  (? married mary reynolds in lurgan 1869)
Thomas Robinson Hall (baptised in lurgan presbyterian church, lurgan, no other details)

Thank you for the references. Do you know what a 'founder' means in this context?

Interesting that there is a reference to Mount Hall as well:

This 'Mount Hall' was connected with the Hall family of County Down...

http://lordbelmontinnorthernireland.blogspot.com/2014/04/narrow-water-castle.html

2
Armagh / Re: Joseph Hall, distiller and Colonel, c. 1729-1804 in Lurgan, County Armagh
« on: Saturday 27 December 14 06:28 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: hall and walsh on Saturday 27 December 14 06:20 GMT (UK)
Hi again - some other earlier references that you may or may not have seen:
1693 william hall lurgan ch of ireland cess tax list
1713  Thomas Hall, Schoolmaster,  Living in Lurgan (Lurgan ancestry)
Joseph Hall  the elder, In Derry in 1750 . A “founder” (Lurgan ancestry)
Joseph Hall, living in Shankill.  shipping agent  b abt 1735 Savannah 1768 (Ros Davies website)
1799 ish - Joseph Hall and John Haslett dissolve partnership (Belfast paper)
1808 Joseph Hall lunatic - died pre 1825 (Belfast paper)
Lunatic dies before the death of his daughter rebecca in 1828
1833 sale of house in lurgan belonging to the late Joseph Hall 
Joseph Hall lunatic selling land at Mount Hall

Family of 'our' Joseph Hall and Anne Atkinson, married in 1810.
Children baptised Shankill Church of Ireland, Lurgan:
William 1814 (no details)
William John 1817  (to Australia 1849 ish)
Joseph Hall 1819 (to Australia 1841)
Anne Hall 1822 (married Henry Hunter in Lurgan)
Hamilton 1824 (? died toberhuney 1846)
Henry 1827  (? married mary reynolds in lurgan 1869)
Thomas Robinson Hall (baptised in lurgan presbyterian church, lurgan, no other details)

Thank you for the references. Do you know what a 'founder' means in this context?

3
Armagh / Re: Joseph Hall, distiller and Colonel, c. 1729-1804 in Lurgan, County Armagh
« on: Saturday 27 December 14 05:57 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: hall and walsh on Saturday 27 December 14 05:44 GMT (UK)
Hi again- Caroline found these belfast newsletter references and thought they may be of some help in sorting out who is who and what is what ...
 
3 oct 1752 – lurgan races – joseph hall’s horse “ lightfoot”
 
16 feb 1758 – kernan parish – tullylish co down = lyndsay, william = lyndsay, john,   mccormick, daniel proposals =hall, francis house + jervais st + dublin = rea, john linen draper market....
 
14 april 1767 – hall, joseph = cobren, james = watch dropped,  reward
 
7 july 1769 – sold bay mare foal achilles property, gentleman abroad reason sale apply  hall, joseph jnr , innkeeper + lurgan
 
7 april 1769 – licecensed dealers sufferers  = joseph hall snr and jnr = james mccormick  et al
 
12 may 1769 let farms = mccormick, john, parish agaderg balltaggart co down
 
11 dec 1772 – some kind of disturbance – application government pardon = hall, joseph jnr, =  hall,joseph = hall, hugh, = hall, alex = mccormick, james   et al
 
19-23 dec 1783 – lurgan meeting freeholders manor brownlows derry – hall, joseph  et al

dec 1786 – lurgan club dinner – hall,joseph , secretary
 
22-26 dec 1786  - wines, spirits ,porter = boyd,james commencing business. sale stores + north st + bottle whiskey distilled= hall mr lurgan = whitbread + london porter wood roll tobacco snuff manufacturer + belfast
 
9-13 nov 1787   46th regiment deserted  hall ensign  recruiting party + lurgan lodges goals guard house
 
23-26 oct 1787  mccormick john, belfast linen draper = hall ann/miss, lurgan

23-26 dec 1793 – lurgan meeting freeholders – hall, joseph  et al

17 aug 1790  last monday evening miss hall of lurgan to mr john haslett
 
18-21 sept 1792 – let nov house farm + woodville co down+ newry + tanderagree + bainbridge + lurgan tenant purchaser = hall, joseph= mccormick,john
 
5-9 apr – 1793  hall, joseph , huntersdraft = lurgan stables   (horse for riding,hunting,farm work)
 
18-21 july 1794  married lurgan = barnett, samuel = hall miss
 
21 july 1794  mr andrew barnett, belfast to miss hall of lurgan
 
21 july 1794  mr boyd lurgan making snuff
 
11-15 apr 1796  - hall, joseph et al – someone assassinated
 
28-31 oct 1796 – hall, joseph  et al – a murder
 
1798 – to be sold john haslett’s factory in waring st belfast plus his home
 
5 mar 1799  + lurgan distillery = hall,joseph/and/co  spirits
 
7 jan 1800 – outrage – wretches poison cattle = hall, joseph/and/co lands + clonmacate
 
28 jan 1800 – reward put up by townspeople – mccormick, john et al

Thank you very much for these references. They are of exceptionally great help to me.

The reference to John McCormick = Ann Hall are my fifth great grandparents. Ann Hall was the daughter of the Joseph Hall that you referenced died in 1793.

That Joseph Hall was the father of Joseph Hall Jr. who was described as a 'lunatic' later on.

I suspect that Joseph Hall Jr was the father of Joseph Hall of Toburhuney. I have only seen one Hall family with the family 'Joseph' and they all descend from Colonel Joseph Hall d. 1793.


4
Armagh / Re: Hall, Boyd, Greer families of Lurgan, distillers - a connection?
« on: Tuesday 23 December 14 22:42 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: hall and walsh on Tuesday 23 December 14 21:28 GMT (UK)
Hello again - what dates to you have for Colonel Joseph Hall of Hall Place Lurgan?
I found a Joseph Hall buried in 1793 in Lurgan, might he be the same one?

Pardon my ignorance, but what would he have been a colonel of? (My knowledge of military matters is about zero)

Cheers,
Cathy

I found this:

April 7, 1769, Page 1
Armagh District  Largan Walk
WHEREAS the private selling of Ale and Spirits in and about the Town of Lurgan is grown common, that his Majesty’s Revenue, and the publick Licensed Dealers in that Way, are great Sufferers thereby.
                We therefore whose Names are here under-written, having met together for that Purpose, do unanimously premise and agree, that we will not wittingly or willingly countenance nor wink at any such Practices, but that we to the best of our Power will thereafter endeavour to detect, prosecute and inform of all and every such unlicensed Retailers of Ale, Wine, Sider and Spirits.  Given under our Hands at Lurgan, the 25th Day of March, 1769.
Edw. Boyland, Gauger                          Joseph Hall, junr.             Wm. Hara
John Shaw                                             John Gadd?                     John Adair
Thomas Overend                                   Hugh Hall                         Pat. Crawford
Wm. Hazelton                                       Robt. Turbett                   Thos. Boyse
John Hall                                               James Brown                   RALPH BLAIR
Joseph Wilson                                        John Waite                     Eleanor Ferguson
Daniel ?????                                          John Neal                        John  ????
Robt. Bradshaw                                    James McCormick           Jos. Speer
James Fleming                                      Pat. McConnell                 Abraham Winn
Christopher Byrne                                John Pentland                     Joshua Greenale
Thos. Tipping                                       James Kenley                   John Abraham
John Irwin                                             Clatworthy Carrol            Cicily Devlin
Joseph Hall, senr.                                 Samuel Patten                   Ann Gardener     

http://www.kinsleuth.com/belnews/1760-1769.htm


So there was a Joseph Hall Sr. and a Joseph Hall Jr. both of whom were distillers in 1769.

This article form 1824 refers to another Joseph Hall possibly connected to our family: http://www.irelandoldnews.com/Cavan/1824/SEP.html

5
Armagh / Re: Hall, Boyd, Greer families of Lurgan, distillers - a connection?
« on: Tuesday 23 December 14 22:15 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: hall and walsh on Tuesday 23 December 14 21:28 GMT (UK)
Hello again - what dates to you have for Colonel Joseph Hall of Hall Place Lurgan?
I found a Joseph Hall buried in 1793 in Lurgan, might he be the same one?

Pardon my ignorance, but what would he have been a colonel of? (My knowledge of military matters is about zero)

Cheers,
Cathy
Wow! Thats great information. Thank you so much.

If Colonel Joseph Hall is the distiller who died in 1793, then I suspect his son, Joseph Hall, distiller, was the lunatic. However, as I stated in my previous post, I know that there is will dating from c. 1793 for a Joseph Hall, distiller, but I am not sure whether this man died in 1793 or merely proved his will in1793. In the article link I posted, there is reference to Mary Ann MacCormac, nee Hall, (1765/6-1846), the daughter of Colonel Joseph Hall, falling on hard times on the death of her husband, John MacCormac, but her not being able to rely on her near relatives, because they had their own trouble (i.e. probably the lunancy of Joseph Hall)-see p. 2 of the article link I posted.

There is more confusion over whether Colonel Joseph Hall is the 1793 Joseph Hall because in the article I posted on the MacCormacs, Henry MacCormac, the grandson of Colonel Joseph Hall through Mary Ann MacCormac, nee Hall, (1765/6-1846), stated that he rememered seeing his grandfather's house with a mill nearby and also seeing the bags of corn carried away. However, if Colonel Joseph proved his will in 1793, but died later, then these individuals (the Colonel, the Hall described as a "lunatic", Joseph Hall whose was proved in 1793) may all be one and the same.

Regardless there is strong possibility Colonel Joseph Hall died in 1793. If so I suspect that the tree would fall like this:

Colonel Joseph Hall d. 1793

Joseph Hall, distiller, fell on hard times

Joseph Hall b. 1790 in Toberhuney, Lurgan,

Joseph Hall and William John Hall-your ancestors

or if Colonel Joseph Hall was the lunatic:

Joseph Hall, distiller, 1793

Colonel Joseph Hall-fell on hard times

Joseph Hall b. 1760s/1770s

Joseph Hall b. 1790

Regardless of how I look at it, unless Colonel Joseph Hall remarried later in life, I suspect he was at best the grandfather of the Joseph Hall born in Lurgan in 1790.




6
Armagh / Re: Joseph Hall, distiller and Colonel, c. 1729-1804 in Lurgan, County Armagh
« on: Tuesday 23 December 14 21:46 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: hall and walsh on Tuesday 23 December 14 21:22 GMT (UK)
Hello,
My cousin and I in Australia are tracing brothers William John and Joseph Hall, born in Shankill parish Lurgan 1817 (WJ) and 1819 (J)  to Joseph Hall and Anne Atkinson. They travelled to Australia in 1841 (Joseph) and 1849 (WJ). Their siblings seem to have stayed in Armagh. Joseph made pots of money  in Oz and then lived in Clooney, Clare after 1852. WJ died suddenly only a year after arriving in Oz and establishing a farm. He left a wife and four children.

We reached an impasse tracing their father Joseph, who we think may be the Joseph Hall  from Toberhuney who was baptised in 1790 and married in 1810 in the same church. 

We found references in the Belfast newsletter to a Joseph Hall having cattle, with a distillery and and  property whiich was sold after he was classified as a 'lunatic'. Do you have this information?
Do you know whether this man is in the same Lurgan Hall line as "our" Joseph Hall who married Anne Atkinson in 1810?

I look forward to hearing from you!

Cheers,
Cathy  Hall (and cousin Caroline)

Hi Cathy and cousin Caroline,

Thanks so much for getting back to me.

I think Joseph Hall was born around 1720-1740 so I would say based upon the information you have provided, he may well have been the grandfather or father of Joseph Hall born in 1790. I am not sure how far back the County Armagh records go, but I am quite sure all these Halls are related based upon the naming patterns.

I think that the Joseph Hall who was classified as a lunatic was almost certainly connected to Colonel Joseph Hall who had a farm that produced corn and was an extensive distiller at a place known as 'Hall Place'. This is all referred to in the article link I posted below.

However, what I am not sure of, is whether Colonel Joseph Hall is the Joseph Hall who was a distiller who died in 1793 or the one who was a lunatic and was alive as late 1804 and 1817. Colonel Joseph Hall's daughter, Mary Ann MacCormac, nee Hall was born in 1765/6 and died in 1846 aged 80. So I would not think that Colonel Joseph Hall would live to 1804-or 1817 although this is possible. This would leave open the possibility that Colonel Joseph Hall was the distiller who died in 1793. I have seen references on this forum to the will of Joseph Hall, distiller, from 1793 held at the Public Records Office of Northern Ireland, but I thought this was the date Joseph Hall, distiller proved his will, not necessaril the date he died. The contents of that will should be revealing.

This article on the MacCormac family provides some interesting information on the Hall family, with family tree. In the PRONI records, there was a Committee drawn up to deal with the lunancy of a  Joseph Hall distiller-however I am not sure if this is the son of Colonel Joseph Hall or Joseph Hall himself:

http://europepmc.org/backend/ptpmcrender.fcgi?accid=PMC2384976&blobtype=pdf

Unfortunately I am not familiar with the military history of Armagh during this period-I have wondered what Joseph Hall would have been Colonel of and I was hoping perhaps this forum could provide some answers!

I think there was probably a militia in Armagh, led by the Brownlow family who also have a connection through marriage to the Roger Hall (High Sheriff) family of County Down. One Brownlow was said to have been a high ranking 'Lieutenant-Colonel' so perhaps Joseph Hall, being a man of means or at least appearing to have some prominence during the time period, was selected for a position in the militia? Just a guess  :)

7
Armagh / Re: Joseph Hall, distiller and Colonel, c. 1729-1804 in Lurgan, County Armagh
« on: Monday 22 December 14 22:02 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: Elwyn Soutter on Tuesday 16 December 14 08:36 GMT (UK)
Have you searched PRONI’s records for Joseph Hall? You will find a number of references to him in their e-catalogue. Eg his will, (“Joseph Hall distiller”) under ref: D3517/1/1, and testamentary document T1623.

There are leases relating to him eg D1928/L37/16 and a deed of release T2289/7.
Thank you so much for your assistance in locating these records! I haven't managed to find any references to Joseph Hall of that generation.

8
Armagh / Re: A distillery in Lurgan 1804
« on: Monday 22 December 14 19:57 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: scotmum on Thursday 11 April 13 12:48 BST (UK)
Maybe an earlier Joseph Hall, but apparently the following is held at PRONI:

Quote
HALL  Joseph    Distiller    Lurgan / Arm    Copy Will & probate    c1793    D 3517
I am descended from Colonel Joseph Hall of 'Hall Place' in Lurgan, County Armagh, who was said to have been a prosperous distiller with additional farmland. He invested in property with his son in law, John MacCormac (d. 1811), and was the grandfather of Dr Henry MacCormac (1800-1886), whose mother was a Hall-Mary Ann Hall (1766-1846). I read in the Belfast Journal that Joseph Hall may have fallen on hard times and this may explain why the Halls were not associated with a distillery later on.

If anyone can provide direct information on the origins of this Hall family (or indeed the MacCormac family) in the eighteenth and seventeenth century, that would be helpful. The origins of the Hall family and MacCormacs are unclear-but both, particularly the Halls, were quite well-to-do- seemingly

9
Armagh / Re: A distillery in Lurgan 1804
« on: Monday 22 December 14 19:56 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: hall and walsh on Thursday 11 April 13 12:24 BST (UK)
I have just found an 1804 newspaper advert for the sale of a distillery outside of Lurgan, owned by a Joseph Hall. The advert indicated that the distillery produced large quantities of whisky.
Is there a source I could use to find out more about  the distillery?

Thanks,
I am descended from Colonel Joseph Hall of 'Hall Place' in Lurgan, County Armagh, who was said to have been a prosperous distiller with additional farmland. He invested in property with his son in law, John MacCormac (d. 1811), and was the grandfather of Dr Henry MacCormac (1800-1886), whose mother was a Hall-Mary Ann Hall (1766-1846). I read in the Belfast Journal that Joseph Hall may have fallen on hard times and this may explain why the Halls were not associated with a distillery later on.

If anyone can provide direct information on the origins of this Hall family (or indeed the MacCormac family) in the eighteenth and seventeenth century, that would be helpful. The origins of the Hall family and MacCormacs are unclear-but both, particularly the Halls, were quite well-to-do- seemingly

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