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1
East Lothian (Haddingtonshire) / Re: Ness Family, Aberlady, Dirleton.
« on: Thursday 05 August 10 21:03 BST (UK)  »
Mairi,

How are you? I was doing some checking and realized I had never gotten back to you after my trip to Scotland last year - we ended up going in May/June last year rather than this year - just worked out that way.
I was not able to get a look at any original records as churches were closed when I was there so could not look up anything in Aberlady.
I visited the Grange cemetery in Edinburgh as well as the Murchiston and did not find my Kilgours in either one.

I did find a couple of Ness burials in Aberlady which may hook up at some point.

I was very lucky and got to see around the grounds of Gosford House where my g-grandfather Thomas Kilgour was born - son of James Kilgour and Margaret Ness. We had stopped there and the gates were closed with no chance of seeing much at all. Just then a fellow drove out of the gates and stopped to ask why we were there.  When I explained about my gr-grandfather being born on the estate he said he would give us a 10 minute drive through.

The 10 minutes turned into an hour and a half tour - it was terrific. I explained to him I thought  my g-grandfather must have been born in the old Gosford House (which was a small house on the estate) but he just smiled and then explained that as my g-g-grandfather James had worked there as coachman and gardener he would not have lived in the old house but rather above the old stables. The stables are still there so he showed  me exactly where they would have lived and where Thomas was born. It was very exciting.

The grounds were very nice and we got to see , along with the stables, the gardens, the other staff buildings etc. We also saw some old architectural pieces that had been recently found - they had been buried, likely by the original builders. The fellow who showed us around is the overseer for the estate and was very helpful.
My only regret is that  I didn't ask if I could take a piece of the old architectural bits that had been found. Many were very large and in great condition, others were cracked and not useful but I would love to have had something from there. My own fault for not asking. He did allow us to take all the photos we wanted though which was great. He was very nice to us really.

I think you are right about my g-grandfather speaking Scots - it was my Aunt who said it was Gaelic but she may be wrong.
I have no idea where he learned to speak it. My Aunt had no idea. Another interesting bit - his son, my grandfather spoke fluent French and his son my Dad spoke fluent Spanish so I suppose there was a love of languages within their family. Now I have enough trouble with English!! 

I haven't been doing much on my NESS/KILGOUR family lately but am ready to get back to it so will let you know if I come up with anything.

I tried attaching two photos but for some reason it did not work

all for now, Carolyn

2
Dorset / Re: Trim family -chideock, Dorset England
« on: Wednesday 22 July 09 21:31 BST (UK)  »
Olwyn,

Here is a bit on Maria's family

   1861 DISTRICT 9, BRISLINGTON, BATH & WELLS, SOMERSET - 61 Freland Cottage (looks like, hard to read)

BEVAN
William, age 36, laborer, born Brislington, Somerset

Martha Ann, wife, age 38, laundress, born Queen Charlton, Somerset

William, son, age 14, scholar

Elizabeth, daughter, age 12, scholar,

Caroline, daughter, age 10, scholar

Maria, daughter, age 8, scholar,

Sarah, daughter, age 6, scholar,

Mary Ann, daughter, age 4, scholar,

George, son, age 2,

Richard, son, age 2 months,

** all children are shown as born Brislington, Somerset

** in index they show Martha Ann as born Queen Charlton, Gloucester, and children born Brislington, Gloucester, but the image shows Somerset as County for all  ??

  1871 BRISLINGTON, SOMERSET
BEVAN (indexed as Berger)

William, age 46, labourer, smith shop, born Brislington, Somerset

Martha Ann, wife, age 47, laundress, born Queen Charlton, Somerset

Mary Ann, daughter, age 13, scholar, born Brislington, Somerset

George, son, age 11, scholar, born Brislington, Somerset

Richard, son, age 9, scholar, born Brislington, Somerset

Rosa, daughter, age 1, born Brislington, Somerset

   1871 WESTBURY, HENBURY, GLOUCESTERSHIRE =#2 Brentey Farm
BEVAN
Sarah A., servant girl, age 16, born Brislington, Somerset

    1871 CLEVEDON, SOMERSET - 273 Old Church Road
BEVAN
Caroline, age 20, servant, born Brislington, Somerset

Did not find Elizabeth but she was likely married by then so under a married name.

    1871 BRISLINGTON, SOMERSET - Cottage
BEVAN
William, age 24, lodger, labourer, born Brislington, Somerset

I found a possible for Maria

   1871 ST, MARY REDCLIFF, BRISTOL , GLOUCSTERSHIRE- 21 Redcliff Mead Lane
Lever (as indexed, in image it has been changed to Leaver or Leavan, so could mean Bevan??

Maria M., age 19, lodger, machinist at Stay Work, born Brislington, Somerset

   1881 KEYNSHAM, BRISLINGTON, SOMERSET - Freeland Cottage No. 1
BEVAN
William, age 57, general labor, born Brislington, Somerset

Martha A., wife, age 58, laundress, born Queen Charlton, Somerset

Caroline, daughter, unmarried, age 30, laundress, born Brislington, Somerset

George, son, unmarried, age 23, general labourer, born Brislington, Somerset

William, grandson, age 4, scholar, born Brislington, Somerset

Rose, daughter, age 11, scholar, born Brislington, Somerset

Lucy, granddaughter, age 1, born Brislington, Somerset

I looked for William and Riuchard, sons of Wm. and Martha

   1881 BRISLINGTON, SOMERSET - 13 Grove Road
BEVAN
William, age 33, general labor , born Brislington, Somerset

Elizabeth, wife, age 36, born Taunton, Somerset

Rosa, daughter, age 6, scholar, born Brislington, Somerset

Charles, son age 2, born Brislington, Somerset

Eleanor, daughter, age 1 month, born Brislington, Somerset

   1881 WESTBURY ON TRYM, GLOUCESTERSHIRE - Kingston Villa
BEAVEN (as indexed)
Richard, age 19, unmarried, servant-coachman,domestic servant, born Brislington, Somerset

all for now - I will get back to you with more if I can find more for you

Carolyn L

3
Dorset / Re: Trim family -chideock, Dorset England
« on: Wednesday 22 July 09 09:21 BST (UK)  »
Hi,

I have found a bit more for you but they are certainly a difficult bunch to track down.

   1881 CLIFTON, BRISTOL, GLOUCESTERSHIRE - 76 GRANBY HILL -SHOP
TRIM (indexed as THIM)
George, age 42, dairyman, born Dorset-Chideock

Anna, age 62, needlewoman, born Dorset-Chardstock

** quite an age difference!

 
I couldn't find Thomas and Susan in 1861 so looked for the children
1861 CHIDEOCK, DORSET
JERRARD
William, age 39, shepherd, born Dorset, Chideock

Elizabeth, wife, age 40, born Dorset, Woolen Fitspain

in same house
EVERLEIGH
Fredrick W., son-in-law, age 25, groom, born Dorset, Chideock

Ann, daughter-in-law, age 22, ag. labor, born Dorset, Chideock

JERRARD
Elizabeth, daughter, age 10, scholar, born Dorset, Chideock

James, son, age 8, sholar, born Devon, Axmouth

TRIM
William, visitor, age 11, ag. labor, born Dorset, Chideock

   1861 CHIDEOCK, DORSET
JERRARD
Joseph, age 67, ag. labor, born Dorset, Whitchurch

Susanna, wife, age 68, braider, born Dorset, Netherbury
in same house
TRIM
Mary A. granddaughter, age 12, braider, born Dorset, Chideock

   1861 BRADPOLE, DORSET
TRIM
Sarah, age 22, servant, born Dorset, Chideock

  1861 ALLINGTON, DORSER
TRIM
Ellen, age 15, servant, born Dorset, Chideock

I couldn't find Joseph or George in 1861

I couldn't find George and Anna in 1871 either. I tried both Dorset and Gloucestershire

There is a death record for a Susan Trim, died 1860 Bridport, Dorset. It does not give her age, but would explain why the children are living with others. Could this be your Susan/Susanna - do you know when she and Thomas died?

There is a Thomas dying 1857 Wareham, Dorset - no age shown.

The death index starts in 1837 so if Thomas' father Thomas died before then he will not be listed.

Do you want info on Maria Bevan? Was she born about 1853 as I found a Maria born 1853 Brislington, Gloucestershire in 1861 census and can copy it if it the right person. The family is living in Brislington, Somerset.

Carolyn L

4
Dorset / Re: Trim family -chideock, Dorset England
« on: Tuesday 21 July 09 19:13 BST (UK)  »
I may have found a bit for you.

  1841 Chideock, Whitechurch Canonicorum, Dorset
TEEM (as indexed) looks like Trim in image
Thomas, age 25, ag. labor, born Dorset

Susan, age 20, born Dorset

George, age 2, born Dorset

Sarah, age 1, orn Dorset

Jerrard, John, age 20, ag. labor, born Dorset

Hedder, William, age 45, ag. labor, born Dorset

I looked for Thomas' father  Thomas and may have found him in 1851/61.
   
      1851 Swanage, Wareham, Wool, Dorset- 109 Church Law
TRIM
Thomas, age 61, born Wool, Dorset

Sarah, age 38, daughter, born Wool, Dorset (she is in index as 58, but looks like 38 to me which is more likely as she is his daughter)

Henry, son age 20, born Wool, Dorset

George, age 8, grandson,  born Wool, Dorset

Elizabeth, age 2, granddaughter, born Wool, Dorset

   1861  Bindon, Wool, Dorset
TURI (as indexed)
Thomas, age 72, ag. lab. born Wool, Dorset

Sarah, daughter, age 48, born Wool, Dorset (she is indexed as wife, but image reads Dau)

George, grandson, age 18, ag. lab. born Wool, Dorset

Elizabeth, grandaughter, age 12, scholar, born Wool, Dorset

I found a death record for a Thomas Trim, died 1868 - April/May/June quarter, Wareham, Dorset. He was born about 1789 so likely the same fellow as in the census

I found a marriage record for Thomas White Trim and Susanna Gerrard, Oct/Nov/Dec quarter, 1837 which shows marriage as taking place in Bridport, Dorset


I have had no luck in finding Thomas (father) in 1841. I have tried by searching for him or Elizabeth or Henry but nothing has come up.

Also looked for Thomas, Susan and family after 1841. Do you know when the family went to Australia??

Carolyn L.


5
Alderney, Guernsey, Jersey, Sark / Re: i've lost William F. Preshaw
« on: Monday 20 July 09 23:43 BST (UK)  »
I think I may have found them for you in Australia. (ancestry.com records)

Here is what I found.

    VICTORIA, AUSTRALIA RURAL CEMETERY RECORDS 1836-1988

PRESHAW
William Fisher, died March 7, 1866, age 56
Campbells Creek/Castlemaine

Isabella Cull Preshaw, died Oct. 12, 1896, age 89
Campbells Creek/Castlemaine

William Fullerton Preshaw, died April 7, 1876, age 42
Campbells Creek/Castlemaine

You did not give the middle name for your William but you did show initial as F. so I hope this is the right fellow.

As the names seem right as well as ages I think this may be your family.

I didn't see a death for Christian, but since William died pretty young she may have remarried and be in records under second marriage name.

Carolyn L

6
Australia / Re: George Montague BURTON - Marriage 1847 Devonport, England
« on: Monday 20 July 09 18:32 BST (UK)  »
Sorry - I sent you a message which I should have done as a reply but I messed up. So here it is. You answered some of my questions in your reply to others so I will see what I can find for you.

Laura,
I found a family tree that shows a George Montague Burton, marrying Eliza Daley in 1869 Australia, and dying in 1905 Essendon, Australia.

They say he was born 1842 Dublin which does not match. They then show a link to 1851 census for St. Lukes, Middlesex, London which they say is his family but in that census he is shown as born London, not Dublin?? So their own information does not agree  with their source. I am wondering if they have the birth year wrong and have just found a family in England with a son of same name and assumed it was him??

Can you tell me the name of wife  your George married. 

It is hard to find Irish census but I have access to the England census so will try to find him there with first wife. I just wanted to confirm his possible birth year.

I know you don't know the name of his first wife, but do you know name of any of children from that marriage?
Do you know when he went to Australia? Should he be in both 1851 and 1861 census for England?

Carolyn L

7
East Lothian (Haddingtonshire) / Re: Ness Family, Aberlady, Dirleton.
« on: Friday 13 February 09 17:32 GMT (UK)  »
Mairi,

I took a look at scotlandspeople for birth records for Mary/Margaret Murphy and John Purves.  I could not find one for Mary/Margaret. The only entry was for Margaret Murphy born to Peter Murphy and Margaret Williams as you mentioned.

I did find entry for John Purves however and you were right about the father:  it shows mother as Janet Ness, father as John Purves. It says:

Aberlady births 1848 - Purves - Born Oct. 30th, baptized April 25th John, a natural son to John Purves and Janet Ness. Wit: William and Peter Ness


I wonder what John's wife thought of this???

I also found the birth of Joseph Ness  1760, which you told me of. I also cannot read what the word is after "taylor in"

It looks like Str? or Sta?  I tried to enlarge it but that didn't help. It definitely looks like four letters in all. I looked at others on the same page but none seem to have that same place named.

When we get to Scotland I'll try to see the original to see if I can make it out any better.

I am really stuck on Margaret Ness. Why isn't her birth record there under Ness or Murphy?  Janet's other children seem to be in the records so why not her. And of course she's the one I really want to find. I am wondering if perhaps the writing in her record was bad and she is indexed under the wrong name - only a possiblity. Scotlandspeople won't let you search just by first names though so can't try that.

Thank you for your help in finding these records.

Yes, my g-grandfather Thomas always had that twinkle in his eye as you saw. That is my favorite photo of him because that is just the way I remember him.  I was a child when he died but I do have nice memories of him. He was always smiling and my brothers and sister and I all thought he was just like Santa Claus with his rosy cheeks. I wish I had met my g-grandmother too but she died many years before I was born.

Carolyn L.

8
East Lothian (Haddingtonshire) / Re: Ness Family, Aberlady, Dirleton.
« on: Friday 13 February 09 01:06 GMT (UK)  »
Mairi,

Thank you for the reply. You must have very good access to E. Lothian records.

The information you have given me on the Murphy and Purves families is great. I really had no
idea of where to look.  I am quite convinced that Mary Murphy and Margaret Ness are one and the
same.

For one thing Mary Murphy is in census with Janet Ness, but no Margaret who should be there, so could be the  same person. Also it seems likely that Janet would have named her only daughter after her (Janet's) mother who was Mary. So she may have been Margaret Mary or Mary Margaret.

The 1861 census you found for a Mary M. Ness fits in with the age Margaret was when she married James Kilgour in 1865., so she certainly could be the right person. It also fits in with the idea of Mary/Margaret using both those names. I am going to take a look at that census - thank you

On both Margaret Ness' marriage and death records her mother's name is shown as Janet Ness. Margaret Ness is also shown as born Aberlady.

Margaret was married 1865 Aberlady and is shown as a domestic servant. Husband James was a Coachman at Archerfield.

Their first son Thomas (my g-grandfather) was born 1866 on the Earl of Weymms estate - Gosford) I believe it likely he was born at the Old Gosford house rather than the larger estate house. Only makes sense to me if his father was a servant.

You wondered if Margaret (Ness) Kilgour had family around when she died. Yes, she did - on her death record it shows her son Thomas (my g-grandfather) was present at her death. I know many of his siblings were living in the area as well. Margaret's husband James had died in 1905. They are both buried in The Grange cemetery Edinburgh.

I agree that Mary Dalgleish was likely Margaret's cousin. I noticed that on William Ness' death record, Margaret Dalgleish, daughter is listed as Informant- present at time of his death.

You mentioned that birth certificates name only Mary and John's mother as Janet. Did you find their birth records? If so, can you tell me the years. I am going to look for them on scotlandspeople

Along with looking at 1861 census you mentioned, and looking for birth records for Mary Murphy and John Purves I will also look for Joseph Ness' baptism and let you know what the town name looks like to me.

I have James and Margaret (Ness) Kilgour in 1881 census Kirkurd, Peebles, 1891 Kirkurd, Peebles and 1901 Edinburgh so they came to Edinburgh sometime between 1891 and 1901. I know that at least one of their children -a daughter was in Edinburgh as early as 1890 when she married there.

Yes, Thomas came to Canada in 1911 with son William. Two of his sons had come before them.(my grandfather was the first to arrive in 1908, his brother David in 1909) Thomas' wife Jane and their youngest son George, and Jane's daughter Mary followed later in 1911. 

Thomas was my g-grandfather and I remember him a little. He died in Vancouver, B.C. 1959, aged 93. He worked as a coachman and gardener when young and as a gardener for most of his later life. He worked right up until about age 91 when he fell and broke his wrists and could no longer work.

He had , over the years, purchased several lots in Vancouver where he did his own home gardening while at the same time still working for several others. He was also a judge for many years for the local garden shows in town. He also started up one of the first local community gardens where people with little land could go and grow their own veggies etc.  His wife was also a gardener - I've been told that when they met she was a gardener's helper. She died in 1933. Another interesting thing about Thomas - which I only found out about recently - he spoke Gaelic and would give the "Address to the Haggis" every year on Robby Burns day. I think it likely he was one of very few in Vancouver who spoke Gaelic.  I have attached a photo of Thomas - hope it goes through.

Yes, I feel very lucky to have that family tree from Thomas which was written back in the 1950's. Without it , searching would have been much harder. There were some errors in it but it was still a huge help.

I will get back to you as soon as I check through the records mentioned above.
Thank you for all the information.

My husband and I are planning a trip to Scotland - likely next year so I am putting together all the info I can so I can visit all the places where my family was.

Carolyn L.

9
East Lothian (Haddingtonshire) / Re: Ness Family, Aberlady, Dirleton.
« on: Saturday 07 February 09 19:25 GMT (UK)  »
Mairi,


My Ness line runs through Janet Ness, daughter of William Ness and Mary Robertson. So from what you have on Peter they would have been brother and sister.

I have Janet's birth record. She was born Dec. 31, 1821 and baptized Jan. 6, 1822 in Aberlady. Witnesses were Joseph Ness and Thomas Robertson. I always assumed they were fathers of William and Mary.

Janet died in Aberlady of senile decay. Her death record in 1901 shows her name as Janet Robertson Ness, age 78, father: William Ness, tailor, deceased ,and mother: Mary Robertson, deceased. Although Janet had several children, she never married.

1851 census for Aberlady has William Ness age 60, tailor born Preston Pans, East Lothian, Mary, wife, age 60 out worker, born Aberlady, **Janet, daughter, age looks like 41, which would be wrong, out worker,  born Aberlady, William, son age 19 shoe maker, born Aberlady, Mary Murphy, granddaughter, age 4 (or 6, not sure) born Aberlady, John Purves, grandson, age 2 born Aberlady.   ** Janet should be 30 years old.

1861 census for Aberlady has William Ness, widower, age 67, tailor, born Prestonpans, Haddington, **Janet, daughter, age 30, farm worker, born Aberlady, John, grandson age 13, farm worker born Aberlady, William, grandson, age 11 born Aberlady, David, grandson age 2, born Aberlady

Again Janet's age is wrong, but then census records are not always to be relied on for ages. She should be 40.

In 1871 Aberlady census William, widower, tailor is age 77, born Preston Pans, Haddington, Janet, daughter, age 49 (finally a right age for her), unmarried, housekeeper, born Aberlady, William, grandson age 21, flesher, born Aberlady, and David, grandson age 12, scholar, born Aberlady.

Janet had a daughter Margaret who was my g-g-grandmother. I have had no luck in finding her in any census records before her marriage. She married James Kilgour in 1865, Aberlady. Her mother is shown as Janet Ness. Father's name is left blank.

My gr-grandfather Thomas Kilgour wrote out a family tree back in the 1950's which he gave to one of his grandchildren. In this tree he lists Janet Ness as Margaret's mother and William Ness as her grandfather. He also lists Margaret's siblings as Bill, David and John.

These three brother's names match with the names in the 1861 census.

When Margaret married in December of  1865 she was shown as age 22 which would make her birth about 1843. In 1851 she would have been about 6 or 7 depending on her birth date which I do not know.

So I am wondering if she is the Mary Murphy with the Ness family in 1851 and if the John Purves is the John Ness of 1861. He is right age. I am wondering if Janet first called them by their fathers' surnames and later changed them to Ness???

This is the only explanation I can come up with for why there is no John Ness or Margaret Ness in 1851 and why this Mary and this John would be with Ness family and listed as grandchildren if they are not Janet's children.

Does that make sense to you?  Have you come across anything in your research on this family that would explain this?

I have William's death record for 1877.

That is as far as I have gone. On this death record it has parents as Joseph Ness and Margaret Paterson.

You have shown parents of Joseph as being William Ness and Marion Ponton/Punton who married in 1759 North Berwick.

Do you have a birth record for Joseph? Do you know where he was born - Dirleton?  North Berwick?  or elsewhere?

I appreciate any help you can give me and would be happy to share what little I hae on this family.

Carolyn L.



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