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Messages - rtbrtb

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Australia / Re: Thomas George BEILBY of Charleville QLD
« on: Friday 19 September 14 15:06 BST (UK)  »
A couple of corrections that may help.

Emily Beatrice Robinson

Thomas George d. 1963

John/Hannah - 7 children.  I think you mean 'six other children".

2
Australia / Re: Thomas George BEILBY of Charleville QLD
« on: Tuesday 13 August 13 03:13 BST (UK)  »
A little more research to clarify matters.

The "Charleville Times" containing the Warren - Beilby engagement notice is headed, Thursday, 3rd April, 1952.

Perhaps it was the Editor's idea of an April Fool's joke.

The paper was issued weekly on Thursdays.  The issue dated 3rd April, 1952 was actually issued on Thursday, 1st April, 1952 - as a reference to the 1952 calendar will indicate.

3
Australia / Re: Thomas George BEILBY of Charleville QLD
« on: Tuesday 13 August 13 01:17 BST (UK)  »
Be assured there was no 'The Cottage' in Galatea Street and no Beilby lived in that street.  In 1952, there were only two T. Beilbys in Charleville.  One lived in King Street, the other, lived in Parry Street.  There was only one Beilby family in town, all members having derived from the original Beilby settler, John Beilby.  I do admire the energy and dedication that has gone into tracking down this elusive Thomas George Beilby and his various relatives - but sometimes the records can confuse, especially where identical names are involved over two generations or when a particular record turns out to have been no more than an April Fool's joke.  The name, Thomas George Beilby, is confusing in Charleville.  By about 1960 there were three members of the extended Beilby family in the town, each of whom bore that name.  They covered three generations and two households.  As for Norah, allegedly of 'The Cottage', as I continued to cast my memory back, I'm pretty sure she had no middle name - nor did her sister, Maryrose.  To attribute to her the middle name of 'Josephine' would have seemed to local townspeople and to Norah herself, insofar as she might have enjoyed the joke, somewhat amusing.  'Josephine' in that town at that time would have been seen as the sort of name one would find in Music Hall burlesque.  There was an old 'tramp' lady in the town named "Jo" - and that was the extent of the name's use.  "Jo" had a horse and cart and collected pigs' slops from cafes and hotels.  She also had a shotgun that she wasn't backward in brandishing at those who might attempt to shoot wild ducks from her billabong.  The Beilby family knew it well.  I had long forgotten the 'engagement' notice of 1952.  The only detail I do vaguely recall is Norah's mentioning to me some amusement or otherwise about 'The Cottage', a name that no self-respecting western Queensland pioneer would have dreamed of using - and certainly not Thomas George Beilby.  He may have named his residence, say, "The Gunyah" - but not 'The Cottage'.  As it happened, his sole Charleville residence in Parry Street had no name.  As for the perpetrator of the hoax, I have no idea who it might have been.  The whole thing cannot have been taken all that seriously otherwise there'd have been some family discussion, some family outrage perhaps.  And given that I was in the alleged fiancé's class at the time, I think I'd have known if Ian Warren had been 'courting' my cousin.  Further, had he been engaged to her, I feel sure he'd have sought my goodwill rather more readily than he did.

4
Australia / Re: Thomas George BEILBY of Charleville QLD
« on: Tuesday 13 August 13 00:20 BST (UK)  »
My apologies.  I had no idea I'd tread on anyone's toes and, having done so, let me say 'sorry' most sincerely.  I was much struck by the effort that has gone into tracking down what must have seemed elusive and I was most impressed by what had been discovered from 'first principles' so to speak.  Had I not been impressed and not seen the sincere effort to discover the truth that lies behind these records, I'd not have offered any contribution at all.  But since I can tell the answers to all the questions that have been raised and explain some items that seemed to cause confusion, I offered the truth of the matter in good faith.  Some guesses as to what research findings tell are, as one searches for final answers, necessary to be made and sometimes those guesses will, as progress is made, prove to be inaccurate - but that is not to attribute blame or fault on those who are forced to 'postulate'.  What I have done is to offer speedy and, be assured, accurate answers to questions that have proved elusive to date - and I thought those who have struggled with these questions might have been appreciative.  As to airing dirty linen or to be seen to be disrespectful in questioning some records, I must confess to some puzzlement by the claim.  Facts are facts and I make no judgement about them - and where what are thought to be genuine 'records' turn out to no more than local jokes, no blame can be attributed to those who, by necessity, mistake them for the genuine article.  Be assured that what I have written is totally accurate and if my contribution assists in providing the answers to matters that have puzzled people in this thread for some time, then I'm happy to have helped.  It's probably a good basic truth in research to assert that it's worth maintaining some emotional distance from one's cold interpretations of records.  After all, it would be a trifle silly to speculate about the fate of Leichhardt and then to be offended if, suddenly Leichhardt turned up and put an end to the need for speculation and corrected any confusion that might have occurred.  The horse's mouth is usually to be relied on.  This is not to say that the search for Thomas George Beilby is an identical situation but, let me assure you, my contribution comes as close to that situation as you're going to find.

5
Australia / Re: Thomas George BEILBY of Charleville QLD
« on: Monday 12 August 13 20:36 BST (UK)  »
And a last thought, for sure:

Anyone with a knowledge of country towns in the 1950's would realize that the 'engagement' joke had a certain malice, possibly unintended.  I do not know.  However, an engagement announced in April of a marriage to take place one month later meant only one thing.  The shotgun.

6
Australia / Re: Thomas George BEILBY of Charleville QLD
« on: Monday 12 August 13 20:32 BST (UK)  »
"As I did say from the beginning Snr had one son named the same, and the two trove links given by aussie 1947 are the children of snr"

The elder Thomas George Beilby was T.G.B. Senior (b. 1892) - son of John Beilby (b. 1849).  The Junior T.G.B. (b. 1915) was the son of James Beilby (b. Stawell, 1880), elder brother of T.G.B. Senior. 

I note that one contributor states that Norah was the daughter of T.G.B. Junior.  He was actually T.G.B. Senior.

As for Norah's 'misfortune' regarding engagements, her misfortune lay in the fact that the newspaper notice of her engagement to Ian Warren was a hoax.

7
Australia / Re: Thomas George BEILBY of Charleville QLD
« on: Monday 12 August 13 20:13 BST (UK)  »
This has me thinking:

"Engagement Notice     (as hand transcribed from source)
Warren - Beilby - The engagement is announced of Ian Colin Warren eldest son of Mr and Mrs L N Warren of the Gresham Hotel Brisbane
to Norah Josephine second youngest daughter of Mr and Mrs T Beilby of "The Cottage" Galatea Street Charleville. Both are aged 19 and intend
wedding on the 10th of May. Bridesmaids are Rosemary Beilby, Joyce Spinster and Marion Warren. Best man is Dr Simpson of Dr Arriottis Surgery
also Lex Woods and Sid Fitzpatrick; flower girl is un - decided but Asmin Harding is expected to take the part.
Ref The Charleville Times Thursday3 April 1952."

This is sheer nonsense.  I do not recall Norah's (daughter of Thomas Geo.) middle name.  But 'Josephine'?  Sounds unlikely.  She was not the 'second youngest daughter' of Mr and Mrs T. Beilby.  She was the elder of Thos. George's two daughters.  In 1952, Norah was working in the Q.N. Bank in Charleville.  In 1952, there was a young teacher in town called Ian Warren.  However, in 1952, Norah and her father, Thomas, did not live at The Cottage, Galatea Street.  They lived on the corner of Parry and West Street.  In 1952, Norah would have been about 19.  I would have thought Ian Warren would have been a little older since he was teaching Commercial subjects in the Secondary Department of the school at that time.

What is certain is that no such wedding ever took place and certainly I never heard it spoken of - and I was at the house frequently enough.  Were I to take a guess, I'd say that the C'vlle Times notice was a hoax, an April Fool's joke - note the date of the newspaper - 3 April 1952.  What's more Mary Rose was Mary Rose or Maryrose, not Rosemary.  What I could say with certainty is that Thomas George, Norah's father, would have been ropable and ready to take a whip to whoever inserted the notice and to the Editor of the C.T. for publishing it.

So we have an address wrong, Maryrose's name wrong, I expect Norah's middle name is wrong - and how Dr Simpson would seem to have been involved with his name in this notice, I cannot imagine.  I can only assume that the notice got the town either talking or laughing for a day or two and was then promptly forgotten.  It must have seemed quite inconsequential to me since I have absolutely no recollection of it and since Norah and I were very close, an engagement to Ian Warren would have registered permanently since I knew them both.  (As for Norah's middle name, the record of her death in the Queensland Justice Department would set the matter straight.)  Sounds to me as if someone with only a vague knowledge of the personal details of the pair concocted the story.  I see Ian Warren's parents are listed as The Gresham Hotel, Brisbane.  That may be so, but I thought he came from Toowoomba or thereabouts - but on this point I could be very wrong. 


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Australia / Re: Thomas George BEILBY of Charleville QLD
« on: Monday 12 August 13 19:43 BST (UK)  »
I note that there are a succession of items listed here following the search for Thomas George Beilby.  I know the answers to virtually all I have read - which information may be of use to researchers.  In short,  the succession goes as follows;

Thomas George (intended to be Thomas George but registered by someone who forgot the name order on the way into town as George Thomas) Beilby was the son of John Beilby, born Geelong, 1849 (John the son of James, born Swanland, Yorkshire - m. Baker).  This Thos. G. was the first of the Thomas George name in Queensland although the Victorian branch of the family, i.e. sons and daughters of James Beilby, had names virtually the same names as the sons and daughters of John - hence one must take care.  Queensland's first Thomas George (b. 1892) married Lily Denne and lived in his married years in Parry/West Sts., Charleville. He had three children, Norah (Wilkinson), Maryrose (Bell), and Ian Thomas.  His nephew was Thomas George, b. 1915.  And so, either Thomas George (1892) or Thomas George (1915) will be the Thomas George intially searched for.


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