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Messages - TJ 007

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1
Australia / Re: Patrick BARRETT brickwall
« on: Friday 03 August 18 06:31 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: majm on Thursday 02 August 18 11:25 BST (UK)
Quote from: TJ 007 on Thursday 02 August 18 03:58 BST (UK)
....
If they did change their name how could you prove it? .....

Quote from: majm on Wednesday 01 August 18 09:16 BST (UK)
...
Thinking about where to look for actual signatures..   
....

Look at any 'real deal' NSW BDM certificates you hold.   Check if the handwriting on these is "all in the same hand" and if so, put aside, in the NOT helpful pile.   If there's ANY with the signature of any relative of Patrick and/or any candidate for his wife, his inlaws, his parents ... or signature of Patrick himself, keep, scan, and backup scan copy.   And then think about any documents at NSW Archives that may have his signature ... letters to Colonial Offices, etc and any documents at NSW BDM ... could he be a witness at a sibling's wedding or an informant at birth rego for any of his children ... etc ... Become a detective ... look for info which backs up the info on the 1886 marriage ... any aspect ... and then work at confirming/eliminating that from your quest... 

Remember, that it is still quite legal in NSW to become known by another name.  It has only become difficult since the Quintex scandal of the late 1980s early 1990s. 

I dont have much knowledge of the admin aspects of Roman Catholic parish registers, but re C of E, there's every possibility the local clergy kept a "cheat sheet" on families ... including in 19th Century the ship of arrival, the native place, children and when/where baptised etc.   You can get the gist of these via RChat's NSW Resources Board and the live links to Christ Church, Hexham, (Newcastle) NSW.   Here: (family sheets across two foolscap pages).   
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/ 1820 – 1899 Family Register

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0

I think it may be worthwhile to consider saving some pennies to order official transcript of birth registration of youngest NSW REEVES found (George, 1867, to Robert & Susan registered Braidwood #7316/1867 ) ... You see, the NSW BDM civil registrations include details of the OLDER siblings of the baby being registered... so the youngest should give name and age of each living older sibling, and gender of those who had succumbed prior to baby's birth.   You would have info about Robert and Susan (when/where married, occupation, age, etc as recalled by the informant), and about their children ... so it may repeat info already known, or it may mention Patrick as older sibling, or it may help eliminate (so NOT mention Patrick), or it may remain confusing ... sorry ...

Fingers crossed,  still thinking about how to confirm if there's been an informal surname change...  :)  not just a spelling variation... 

JM

Thank JM as always good advice ;D
I will do that regarding the signatures. I don't have much on Patrick but I see you point in regards to other documents he may pop up on. That is angle that needs to be looked at.

You and Judith have giving me something to ponder on the Reeves family. That might be a step I need to take in the future regarding George's birth. Could provide some answers or none but its something to think about.
I am going to keep searching for Patrick's Mother death record. If I found that I think it may provide a few answers.
Hard to figure out when she died and what name. Which makes the range big. She could be under Reeves, Barrett or even Green? with the first name Ann, Mary or even Susan?
I have printed off a page of NSW Death index results on Barrett and have managed to rule out a few names from obits from trove and cemetery inscriptions.

I will go through the pages of C of E cheat sheets on the link provided over the weekend.
The hunt continues ;)

Kind regards
Tom

2
Australia / Re: Patrick BARRETT brickwall
« on: Thursday 02 August 18 03:58 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: judb on Wednesday 01 August 18 09:10 BST (UK)
Speculation only!!

IF  ??? (and it's a very big IF) it were to turn out that  Robert, son of Robert (a carpenter) and Susan REEVES, b 20 April 1863 at Molonglo, is actually Patrick BARRETT, then perhaps the Elizabeth REEVES, with the same parents (Elizabeth, daughter of Robert (a carpenter) and Susan REEVES, b 10 September 1864) morphs into the Elizabeth BARRETT a witness at Patrick's marriage.

I could easily have missed them but I can't find any suitable deaths for Robert REEVES, his wife Susan nor for the 3 children registered to them.   (Obviously Elizabeth may have married) ???  ???

Sorry, probably complete red herring!

Judith

Very interesting and probably shouldn't be dismissed yet. So far the only records found of Green and Reeves just happen to be at Molonglo or nearby Queanbeyan. The record of George Reeves born at Braidwood which you found the other day makes it two areas Patrick was at during that time period.

We know from Patrick's Marriage record the surnames of his parents are Green and Reeves. The only marriage record found, is for a Reeves and Green are Robert and Susan which just happens to be at Queanbeyan.  Birth records for 2 children found by JM just happens to be at Molonglo.

Here is some more pondering of thought.
On Patrick's death certificate and the trove obituary for his wife Elizabeth both mention a daughter I never knew about. Susan Barrett. Noticed the first name.
Is it possible when Patrick died, his son the informant gave the name Robert Barrett. Thinking his Grandfather was a Barrett. He may have been right on the first name but not the surname?

I don't know much about this but lets speculate  a little.
The 2 birth records JM found for Robert Reeves and Elizabeth Reeves both born at Molonglo were baptised Church of England.
Patrick later on marriage Elizabeth Griggs in a catholic church at Braidwood and he was later on buried in the catholic section at Gore hill. At some stage he has changed religion.
Would someone or a family that changed their religion change their last name too in the 1800's?

If they did change their name how could you prove it?

We know one thing death searches for Patrick's parents or even a marriage search so far have been unsuccessful. There could be a surname or 2 seriously misspelt or perhaps a name change.

Interesting speculation though. ;D

Kind regards
Tom

3
Australia / Re: Patrick BARRETT brickwall
« on: Tuesday 31 July 18 23:41 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: majm on Tuesday 31 July 18 10:51 BST (UK)
:) NSW marriage Act 1899 is where it became usual to note which parents (if known) were already deceased.

 :) Funeral directors handled lodging paperwork for death registrations in NSW ... Robert is noted as given name for Patrick's dad in the opening post, so the informant when giving info to the funeral director has likely been asked ... what was Patrick's dad's name, and answered 'Robert', suggesting to me that the informant was not acquainted with Patrick's parents at all.   

 :) I think the surname of Patrick's dad was REEVES or a variation on it ... only a hunch, but  I think that Patrick giving a surname for his dad that is different from his own surname would NOT be an everyday occurance when organising a marriage.   

 :) Divorce came to NSW 1873.   Perhaps Patrick's parents were not married when he was born, or perhaps dad died and mum remarried during Patrick's childhood ... either would give opportunity for different surnames.   

 :) Reeves and Barrett both have spelling variations, including mis-reading on their capital letters and the official records for all of the 19th century were all recorded in longhand. 

 :) NSW Archives has many indexes which can be reached here: https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/

Fingers crossed,  I will continue with my offline resources, knowing that the others are excellent RChatters.  :)

JM

Thanks JM some good points there.
The informant on Patrick's death certificate was Patrick's youngest son. He may not have extensively known Patrick's past.
On a different line but when my Grandfather passed away my Aunt was the informant on his death certificate. When My Mother received a copy it had several errors.
Like you, I am believing the Marriage record details over the Death certificate.

I had considered Patrick may have been born out of wedlock and later on Ann married a Barrett.

Also possible Robert Barrett was his real father, maybe he died when Patrick was very young and his Mother remarried? On that scenario maybe Patrick considered John Reeves as the only dad he knew? and put him down as his father on the marriage record.
There is also a Elizabeth Barrett as a witness on Patrick's marriage record. Either a Sister, Sister in-law or an Aunt?
Its a mystery at the moment.
Good point on surnames that can be misread. While searching for the Barretts, a later generation, I found one record listed as Parrett.

Kind regards
Tom


 

4
Australia / Re: Patrick BARRETT brickwall
« on: Tuesday 31 July 18 23:11 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: wivenhoe on Tuesday 31 July 18 09:29 BST (UK)
From the additional information that you now have for the marriage certificate, 1886 -

".... John Reeves (occupation carpenter)…………..mother Ann Green...….."

You should also have parents names for Elizabeth GRIGGS...………. names of four parents.

Do you see "dec" after any of these four names...…...ie would the  absence of such notation be enough to suggest that the parent is alive?.   

Do you know if Elizabeth's parents are alive at 1886?

Are John REEVES and wife Ann REEVES alive at 1886?

No deceased after any of them. I thought they may still be alive then I remembered Elizabeth's Father died 1884.
It must be as JM said the
NSW marriage Act 1899 is where it became usual to note which parents (if known) were already deceased.
Kind regards
Tom

5
Australia / Re: Patrick BARRETT brickwall
« on: Tuesday 31 July 18 05:46 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: majm on Tuesday 31 July 18 04:50 BST (UK)
:)

dots not quite joining up, but worthwhile following the trail ...

NSW ER 1870 QUEANBEYAN
Robert REEVES, residence, Molonglo
John BARRETT, leasehold, Gundaroo
None with surname GREEN

NSW ER 1878 QUEANBEYAN
None with surname REEVES

NSW ER 1870 BRAIDWOOD
Thomas REEVES, household, Braidwood

GREVILLES PO Directory 1875 BRAIDWOOD
Thomas REEVES, labourer
Edward GREEN, bootmaker
Patrick BARRETT, contractor (I may have posted this detail earlier)

Robert, son of Robert (a carpenter) and Susan REEVES, was born 20 April 1863 at Molonglo, was baptised in the Church of England’s Christ Church, Queanbeyan on 10 May 1863.   The officiating clergy was A D Soares as per the church register.

Elizabeth, daughter of Robert (a carpenter) and Susan REEVES was born 10 September 1864 at Molonglo, and baptised in the C of E’s Christ Church, Queanbeyan on 9 October 1864 by Rev A D Soares as per church register.



JM

Thank you JM
Its something to go on. Its proof there was a Reeves family at Molonglo in the period Patrick was born.
I saw a marriage record on NSW BMD index for a Robert Reeves and Susan Green in 1862 at Queanbeyan. Now doubt the family you found above with the birth of the children. Different first names to what I am looking for though. Maybe the Robert Reeves you found had a brother John and maybe Susan Green had a Sister Ann.  The carpenter reference was very interesting.

Kind regards
Tom

6
Australia / Re: Patrick BARRETT brickwall
« on: Monday 30 July 18 06:49 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: majm on Monday 30 July 18 06:44 BST (UK)
I will look up my offline resources for that era and districts later, perhaps tomorrow. Electoral rolls, etc...  I am not home at present.

JM

Thank you

7
Australia / Re: Patrick BARRETT brickwall
« on: Monday 30 July 18 06:26 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: majm on Monday 30 July 18 06:01 BST (UK)
The info on the marriage register is information given first hand, while the info on the death register cannot be first hand, so in that sense it is sensible to place more reliance on a marriage register than on a death register.   Remember too that in the 1880s that the respect shown to clergy was far greater than that shown today.    I notice that the surname of Patrick's dad is different from the surname Patrick used on marriage.  To me that is a positive to indicating the info on the marriage is truthful.    Whether a baptism certificate was required or not .... that depends on the individual clergy, but the info Patrick gave about himself is the critical factor, NSW BDM did not require certified proof handed to the clergy for the marriage to take place.

JM

Thanks JM.

The two different father's names have confused the situation more but I was hoping that the information on the marriage record was more reliable. As you say given first hand which is better.
Someone told me Patrick & Elizabeth (who was church of England) may have had to produce their baptism certificates to get the ministers approval to marry in a Catholic church. I kind of hoped that was the case so I could believe the marriage record over the death certificate.

I now have a few more names to start searching for.

Kind regards
Tom

8
Australia / Re: Patrick BARRETT brickwall
« on: Monday 30 July 18 03:48 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: majm on Friday 13 July 18 06:53 BST (UK)
:)

http://stbedesb.nsw.edu.au/parish/  Perhaps if you make initial enquiry via email, asking how you go about learning of the location of that parish register for 1886, and attaching pdf of the m.c. showing the blanks, perhaps ... well a response should at least give location of the register.  These registers are usually findable.

ADD ... they do have a nominal charge ... scroll down...

JM

Thank you very much JM for your advice on the parish registers. It was worth the effort.

I contacted St Bedes at Braidwood and they provided me with the missing details from my original marriage transcription.
I now have a 2nd source stating Patrick was born at Molonglo.
Age given  in 1886 was 24.
There is a confliction on the Father.
It now has John Reeves (occupation carpenter) as his Father as (opposed to Robert Barrett) and a slight change on the first name for his Mother Ann Green instead of Mary Green.
 
Do you or anyone else know.
Patrick was married in a catholic church, would he in 1886 have to have provided a copy of his baptismal certificate to the Minister before the marriage?
If he did, would that surely mean the parents listed on his marriage record are more likely to be correct, than his death certificate?


Kind regard
Tom
 

9
Australia / Re: Patrick BARRETT brickwall
« on: Monday 16 July 18 06:58 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: majm on Monday 16 July 18 06:26 BST (UK)
1878 NSW ER BRAIDWOOD
Robert GRIGG junior, Araluen, residence, Crown Flat, Aruleun
Robert GRIGG, Araluen, household, Favourite Flat, Aruleun
James GRIGGS, Durran Durra, freehold, Durran Durra
James GRIGGS junior, Uradox, freehold, Uradox

1870 NSW ER BRAIDWOOD … no GRIGG or GRIGGS are listed.  (earlier post gives BARRETT listings #25 for 1870 and 1878 ER Braidwood  :) )



https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKKQ-KT4B
Image 41 of 146
1891 NSW Householders Census County of St Vincent, Census District 42 Braidwood, sub-district of Elrington, (Elrington not a municipality) Majors Creek Goldfield.
County of St Vincent,
REIDSDALE
Patrick BARRETT, 3 males, 13 females
Mary Barrett, 1 male, 3 females

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKKQ-K5K8
Image 130 of 146.
1891 NSW Householders Census County of St Vincent, Census District 42, Braidwood,  subdistrict of Church & School
BRUSHY HILL
Pat BARRETT, 2 males, 3 females. 

JM

Thank you.
The 2 James Griggs are mine at Durran Durra.

So is the Pat Barrett at Brushy Hill.
Unfortunately the Barrett's or Reidsdale are not related. A shame it would have made the searching easier.  ;)

Kind Regards
Tom

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