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London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: drownings in the thames
« on: Wednesday 06 August 25 11:02 BST (UK) »
I've been wrapping this up with some virtual congratulatory back patting and conclusive thoughts. I want to thank everyone who contributed to research, solving this family mystery. Certainly one of the most interesting outcomes I've had in 15 years as a social historian.
I had further thoughts in finalizing notes. I find putting everything into a chronological timeline brings clarity and reveals things you may not have realized otherwise.
I ruminated on why I feel Polly's family must have known about all of it and chose to let it go in the hopes that a family scandal would just conveniently go away. More than that, I feel that it was to do with her familial relationships. Something was going on. The most obvious is they may have been upset that she decided to leave them to live in Australia with William Tyree Jr. and wife Mary Ann Tyree, whom she seemed to have formed quite a bond.
Or they simply didn't want her to go, even forbid her or risk being cut off from financial support, and she left anyway. Another thought is that she may not have been entirely capable of responsible decision making and you can take that any way you like. There's many possibilities.
Why I think this is given the localized Tyree family branch which had several illegitimacies - that aspect obviously wasn't an issue to them.
The only thing that had changed over a generation is they were better known, successful, some even wealthy.
What happened in the end may be a case of hard feelings, 'she got what she deserved' for her actions, in her family's view.
The reason why it doesn't add up is because her brother Alfred Tyree had offices in London by that time. and whilst not frequent visitors, he and his wife Alice nee Norman did occasionally go there and did for sure in 1905.
If anything William Jr. and Mary Ann Tyree being concerned at Polly’s whereabouts or thinking something was possibly amiss, would have asked Alfred and/or his office staff to try to find her since they had not heard from her (we actually don't know if she corresponded with William and Mary Ann between leaving and death, logic denotes not).
At the very least someone in London likrly saw her name in the paper and thought I wonder if that is Alfred's missing sister Mary, especially if she was known to be uncontactable by a certain point.
The fact that the Tyree family could afford to get her disinterred/re-interred or repatriated but didn’t denotes they did not want to.Devil's advocate, we definitely now know she was in a mass grave in Woolwich Cemetery, being ‘unknown’ at the time, so that may have posed a complication) There’s no way that even if they didn't know about it at the time, they would have known at some time soon afterwards.
One realization I had from the timeline set out chronologically is, that if the press knew by at least 28 Apr 1901 she was ' a young woman from Australia, whose name was Mary Tyree', then why was she still buried as unidentified? She had been identified.
Polly also had more than one family member she could have asked for money if she was destitute. It makes me wonder if she did ask her parents and they refused. There were others she could have asked. Most likely she didn't want anyone to know what the situation was exactly.
To me from a psychological point of view her words and actions upon leaving the boarding house for a final time are specifically that of someone who has made the decision to take their life. It very much aligns with studies of cases; and the kind of statement by someone whose decision has typically already been made and they're kind of in a fuge/faux euphoric state at this point. There is often atoning, apology, unelicited fondness expressed.
And the fact Arthur was present and complicit in the words and actions. indicated to me it was a pact. They may have even taken something before entering the water such as Laudanum. Someone speculated here what I also thought as possibility regarding the fabric stuffed in her mouth; that it could have been for her dentures if they were ill fitting or causing irritation, or it could have been to assist her own death.
I also feel John Grant knew of the situation. Arthur’s uncle knew he was missing therefore Grant’s parents knew he was missing. They told him, or vice versa he had seen Arthur being cloe by and knew what the situation was.It’s that or the uncle was psychic.
The Grants may not have heard from Arthur after his return in the day of the WSL as they say, but they also didn’t look for him. Clearly given Arthur's first task upon return was immediately going home this indicates urgency. I think he returned on Jan 5, went home and told them about the situation; about Polly and the pregnancy. John was by then a deacon in the local church and this would have been hugely embarrassing. They asked him to leave the family home, I suspect.
It’s the same old situation of a millennia. People bring children into the world and they are emotionally unequipped and too immature to think about what that means in terms of unconditional love for your offspring. Or simply self-centred. If you are not prepared to accept outcomes outside of your expectations, then don’t become a parent.
Polly and Arthur may not have died, if they at least they felt there was someone they could go to for some help. But clearly they did not feel they were able to and the future was bleak. Cue a very unfortunate end.
I had further thoughts in finalizing notes. I find putting everything into a chronological timeline brings clarity and reveals things you may not have realized otherwise.
I ruminated on why I feel Polly's family must have known about all of it and chose to let it go in the hopes that a family scandal would just conveniently go away. More than that, I feel that it was to do with her familial relationships. Something was going on. The most obvious is they may have been upset that she decided to leave them to live in Australia with William Tyree Jr. and wife Mary Ann Tyree, whom she seemed to have formed quite a bond.
Or they simply didn't want her to go, even forbid her or risk being cut off from financial support, and she left anyway. Another thought is that she may not have been entirely capable of responsible decision making and you can take that any way you like. There's many possibilities.
Why I think this is given the localized Tyree family branch which had several illegitimacies - that aspect obviously wasn't an issue to them.
The only thing that had changed over a generation is they were better known, successful, some even wealthy.
What happened in the end may be a case of hard feelings, 'she got what she deserved' for her actions, in her family's view.
The reason why it doesn't add up is because her brother Alfred Tyree had offices in London by that time. and whilst not frequent visitors, he and his wife Alice nee Norman did occasionally go there and did for sure in 1905.
If anything William Jr. and Mary Ann Tyree being concerned at Polly’s whereabouts or thinking something was possibly amiss, would have asked Alfred and/or his office staff to try to find her since they had not heard from her (we actually don't know if she corresponded with William and Mary Ann between leaving and death, logic denotes not).
At the very least someone in London likrly saw her name in the paper and thought I wonder if that is Alfred's missing sister Mary, especially if she was known to be uncontactable by a certain point.
The fact that the Tyree family could afford to get her disinterred/re-interred or repatriated but didn’t denotes they did not want to.Devil's advocate, we definitely now know she was in a mass grave in Woolwich Cemetery, being ‘unknown’ at the time, so that may have posed a complication) There’s no way that even if they didn't know about it at the time, they would have known at some time soon afterwards.
One realization I had from the timeline set out chronologically is, that if the press knew by at least 28 Apr 1901 she was ' a young woman from Australia, whose name was Mary Tyree', then why was she still buried as unidentified? She had been identified.
Polly also had more than one family member she could have asked for money if she was destitute. It makes me wonder if she did ask her parents and they refused. There were others she could have asked. Most likely she didn't want anyone to know what the situation was exactly.
To me from a psychological point of view her words and actions upon leaving the boarding house for a final time are specifically that of someone who has made the decision to take their life. It very much aligns with studies of cases; and the kind of statement by someone whose decision has typically already been made and they're kind of in a fuge/faux euphoric state at this point. There is often atoning, apology, unelicited fondness expressed.
And the fact Arthur was present and complicit in the words and actions. indicated to me it was a pact. They may have even taken something before entering the water such as Laudanum. Someone speculated here what I also thought as possibility regarding the fabric stuffed in her mouth; that it could have been for her dentures if they were ill fitting or causing irritation, or it could have been to assist her own death.
I also feel John Grant knew of the situation. Arthur’s uncle knew he was missing therefore Grant’s parents knew he was missing. They told him, or vice versa he had seen Arthur being cloe by and knew what the situation was.It’s that or the uncle was psychic.
The Grants may not have heard from Arthur after his return in the day of the WSL as they say, but they also didn’t look for him. Clearly given Arthur's first task upon return was immediately going home this indicates urgency. I think he returned on Jan 5, went home and told them about the situation; about Polly and the pregnancy. John was by then a deacon in the local church and this would have been hugely embarrassing. They asked him to leave the family home, I suspect.
It’s the same old situation of a millennia. People bring children into the world and they are emotionally unequipped and too immature to think about what that means in terms of unconditional love for your offspring. Or simply self-centred. If you are not prepared to accept outcomes outside of your expectations, then don’t become a parent.
Polly and Arthur may not have died, if they at least they felt there was someone they could go to for some help. But clearly they did not feel they were able to and the future was bleak. Cue a very unfortunate end.