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Messages - Darian Zam

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1
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: drownings in the thames
« on: Sunday 15 June 25 11:56 BST (UK)  »
55 days? That's insane. Well it was really more of a sight-seeing trip than A to B  then. I suppose that means the other migration records for Arthur Grant need to be struck off because he couldn't have been in London 21 Oct or Capetown 27 Oct.

Quote from: maddys52 on Sunday 15 June 25 08:22 BST (UK)
As you know the Moravian left Sydney 9 Nov 1901. Shipping reports in various newspapers give the following timeline:

12 Nov - arr Melbourne
14 Nov - left Melbourne
20 Nov - arr Albany
7 Dec -  arr Natal
13 Dec -  left Table Bay
29 Dec - arr Teneriffe
3 Jan - passed Ushant
5 Jan - passed Prawle Point
5 Jan - arr Gravesend (for Royal Albert Dock)

Modified to add:
Interesting note about the Moravian and it's Captain SIMPSON:
"One of the most popular skippers on ocean steamers is, perhaps, "auld mon" Simpson, of the Aberdeen liner Moravian. He is essentially a democrat, and when evening concerts are held not only arranges for the passengers to attend irespective of "class", but also allows the crew to be present. He is known amongst seamen as "Our blue-eyed skipper."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/167245126

2
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: drownings in the thames
« on: Sunday 15 June 25 11:51 BST (UK)  »
Yes I already covered that speculation in an earlier comment, if the ring was a wedding band it would have been engraved with letters inside 'M.G.' But it wasn't. It was 'M.T.'

Quote from: sparrett on Sunday 15 June 25 05:19 BST (UK)
I wonder though, if they were married, whether the Kentish Independent newspaper would have said...

He and a young woman from Australia, whose name was Mary Tyree, had been living together at the house of Mrs Harden.

Wouldn't she be Mrs Grant or Mary Grant?

Sue

3
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: drownings in the thames
« on: Sunday 15 June 25 07:27 BST (UK)  »
Reading the description again, that actually makes more sense, yes. A brooch that was an actual M, rather than engraved with an M.


Quote from: sparrett on Sunday 15 June 25 04:14 BST (UK)
Quote from: AlanBoyd on Saturday 14 June 25 08:26 BST (UK)
I think this must be the article that Arthur Grant's uncle saw (my emphasis).

Friday 26 April 1901: Greenwich and Deptford Observer
Quote
MAN AND WOMAN MYSTERIOUSLY DROWNED
 She was wearing a metal brooch with "M" on it, and there was a piece of muslin in her mouth. Dr. Hirsch said the woman was pregnant and attributed death in both instances to drowning, He was of opinion that the woman had herself placed the muslin in her mouth. —

A comment.
Brooches fashioned in the form of an alphabet letter or decoratively engraved with a letter, were worn early in the 20th century and I can also see examples created before this.

Quite a variety of examples can be seen by google search. Perhaps it is this type she was wearing at death. M for Mary.

Could the muslin in her mouth have been something to do with the presence of her false teeth?
Doesn't really make sense though!

Sue

4
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: drownings in the thames
« on: Sunday 15 June 25 07:24 BST (UK)  »
Oh, so it did actually go to Sydney. First mention I've seen of that. So that leg was the shortest, probably half a day in comparison.

Oct 21-7 Nov 1900 (17 days) arr  Sydney 7 Nov 1900,  new run departs Sydney 8 Nov 1900. Counting 1 day stop at each country hence migration records being present. Liner probably restocked/cargo on these days and turnaround day in Sydney. My estimate based on Arthur’s migration records London 21 Oct 1900 and Capetown 27 Oct 1900 respectively and Polly’s arrival in Melbourne from Sydney Nov 9 1900:

London- Capetown Oct 21-27
Capetown 24 hours  Oct 28
Depart Capetown Oct 29
Arr Albany WA Nov 4
Albany-Melbourne 5
Melbourne arr 5 Nov
 Melbourne 24 hours 6
Melbourne-Sydney 7
Depart Sydney 8
Sydney-Melbourne 9
Arr Melbourne 9  Nov
Depart Melbourne 10 Nov



5
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: drownings in the thames
« on: Sunday 15 June 25 05:38 BST (UK)  »
Earlier comment covered me rechecking all stops along the route for marriage records and found nothing. I didn't find anything in South African records but it always pays to look again.

If he left London on the 21st, it took 6 days to reach Capetown. I now understand it doesn't seem the order was wrong as there are three examples of Capetown being the first stop after or last stop before England. Anyway, it seems like my speculation for an England-Australia run of 13-14 days  was pretty spot on for a rough guess. My calculation shows that Capetown to Melbourne was 7 days. That's 13 days with a day for restock, cargo, maintenance, board/unboard etc. So yes Natal makes WAY more sense, especially where I mention the stop was listed as 'Durban' later on.



Quote from: PatLac on Sunday 15 June 25 04:19 BST (UK)
MORAVIAN

OF ABERDEEN, A. SIMPSON, MASTER, BURTHEN 2902 TONS
FROM THE PORT OF LONDON VIA PORTS TO SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES, 21ST OCTOBER 1900

Surname   Given name   Station          Age   Of what Nation   Status

GRANT       A             GENERAL SERVANT   22     LEE                    CREW

https://marinersandships.com.au/1900/10/107mor.htm


Regarding your previous post mentioning Mrs. M. Tyree embarking on the Moravian, have you noticed that "Port at which Passengers have contracted to land" is Capetown? (I was hoping it was Natal in Brazil, given that I live in Brazil and I could try to find a marriage record  ;D). Could she have married Arthur in Capetown?

By the way, I think Natal was in South Africa as well! https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C62524

https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/1185CAA6-FA02-11E9-AE98-F784F22FEE0D?image=101

6
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: drownings in the thames
« on: Sunday 15 June 25 03:31 BST (UK)  »
Does anyone have an idea at what age someone lower-middle class would finish schooling in that era if they were expected to go to work and support the family? I'm speculating 14-16 years old. Arthur had at least four jobs in the grocery trade already, by Sept 1900.

Quote from: Darian Zam on Saturday 14 June 25 17:58 BST (UK)
'The Baker Street Schools' plural is a bit nebulous. There were two schools in Weybridge at that time neither in Baker St, and both primary I believe. The other Baker St in the Marylebone area did not seemingly have a school.

7
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: drownings in the thames
« on: Sunday 15 June 25 03:03 BST (UK)  »
Now it makes sense! I was concerned about finding the marriage in 1877, but not THAT concerned as I've run across a number of couples in my research travels recently who did not marry until after a couple of kids into the relationship.


Quote from: PatLac on Sunday 15 June 25 01:39 BST (UK)
Quote from: AlanBoyd on Saturday 14 June 25 19:30 BST (UK)
Looking at census records I believe that Arthur Grant was the son of John Grant, gardener, and Harriet Grant (Horn) who were married in Lewisham in Q4 1877. In 1891 their address is Waverley Road, Weybridge (and Arthur is there, aged 10). In 1901 their address is Holly Dale, Waverley Road, Weybridge. I think Holly Dale was simply the name of the house: in that period many modest houses acquired names. The couple are still at that address in 1911 when we learn that they have had five children, one of whom of who has died. There five children were Frederick and Charles b 1875 Blackheath; Arthur, Percy b ~1882 Lewisham; and Edith b ~1884 Weybridge. Frederick and Charles seem to have been twins and were born before the marriage, and I haven't tied them down.

Harriet was born in 1848 Kidlington, Oxfordshire and can be traced through censuses in that area up to 1871 (when she was a servant.)

Here is Waverley Road on the 1896 25 inch OS map. I'm guessing that this area of Weybridge was known as Sandpits, but I haven't seen any direct evidence of that. There are a lot of large houses in the area, perfect for a domestic gardener.

https://maps.nls.uk/view/103314121#zoom=4.8&lat=3172&lon=15432&layers=BT


Frederick John Henry Grant and Charles Thomas William Grant were the sons of John Grant with his first wife Naomi Caryer. They married in 1871 and Naomi died in 1875.

8
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: drownings in the thames
« on: Sunday 15 June 25 02:58 BST (UK)  »
I think about halfway into this thread someone kindly posted the information that was available via that Deceased Online held.
The problem is a lot of those cemeteries in central London have a low % of documentation by Find A Grave. Probably because they are vast, so from what I'm seeing a lot are maybe 20-40% covered by volunteers thus far. It has a long way to go.
I've actually as of yesterday written to parks management who handle the cemeteries and asked if they can provide more information from any documentation they may hold.I've given them plenty to work with so maybe they hold more detailed records that are not public.
During research I've read a lot of very gross and incredibly unsavoury stories regarding internment practices in central London in the C19th  :o

Enon Chapel still has me feeling ill. Imagine sitting through a sermon with flies from rotting corpses buzzing around and landing on you. Gag!

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/559169/disgusting-victorian-cemetery-helped-change-burials-london-forever

Quote from: jonwarrn on Saturday 14 June 25 21:31 BST (UK)
Quote from: Darian Zam on Friday 13 June 25 10:15 BST (UK)
How do you tell which one, and where the interment would be?

I seem to remember that Deceased Online used to give the cemetery name in the free index, but that information has long been replaced by just the name of the local authority. Possibly if you have credits (I don't) you may still get the name in the search results.
However, sometimes there are ways and means!

Again, sorry if it's been mentioned, a few of the early reports of the bodies being found, etc., said that the young woman had auburn hair.

9
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: drownings in the thames
« on: Saturday 14 June 25 20:56 BST (UK)  »
Yes both Polly. 49804 I think about 1895 as her face has matured somewhat by now. This session is probably the latest photos of her

Regardless she had no ring when she died so this isn't here or there. If she still owned this ring at the time of death we don't know that, or what happened to it. She may have sold it towards the end when broke, if she still had it.




Quote from: PatLac on Saturday 14 June 25 20:38 BST (UK)
I think it's definitely a ring and it shows that these 2 photos had been taken in different occasions. Polly looks younger in this one (no ring) https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/37683/tyree-miss-m than in this one (with ring) https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/56649/tyree-miss

The leg o'mutton sleeves were in fashion in the 1890s.

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