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Messages - Darian Zam

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 ... 12
1
Occupation Interests / Re: Do you have corkcutter ancestors?
« on: Monday 21 July 25 16:45 BST (UK)  »
Indeed. My second great grandfather was a cork cutter as was his brother. The rest of the siblings mostly did water type stuff, not completely unrelated I guess. Seamen, Canal boats etc. The cork cutters moved between Scotland and England. Now I know that the wood was mostly imported into England from Portugal this makes sense. They were in Westgate, Hull, Runcorn, Liverpool. All the big port areas which figures.  The cork would be processed and shipped out again. As 'journeymen' they would travel there for a time to work. I guess a lot of corks went back to Scotland for whisky! I'm still tracking their movements, they dropped kids everywhere which is helpful for research I suppose. Someone's done a pretty good historical breakdown of the profession on Geni.

https://www.geni.com/projects/Cork-Cutters/4500569




Dear All,

My g-g-grandfather was a cork cutter.  I've never been totally sure what that involves, but making stoppers for bottles and so forth would have been involved, I'm sure.

In about half a dozen references to his occupation, from census records, birth and marriage certificates of his children, he is always a cork cutter.  To my surprise, on the most recent acquisition, another birth certificate of a child, he is a "Tobacconist (Master)".  This is only 5 months after the 1861 census, in which he is still a cork cutter.  Unless the apprenticeship for a master tobacconist was very short (and he subsequently returned to cutting cork!), I presume that there must be some link between these two professions.  Googling doesn't show any obvious link.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Tim

2
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: drownings in the thames
« on: Friday 27 June 25 20:26 BST (UK)  »
We haven't been able to figure out who he is yet. Possibly Henry Fred  Tyree (b 1921). Nobody else fits. Has to be someone in Nelson and he looks like that branch of the family, if a bit of a toothless  hayseed.


Thanks Darian. Last one, do you know who this lad is?

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects?query=%22tyree+man%22

3
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: drownings in the thames
« on: Friday 27 June 25 18:48 BST (UK)  »
Good spotting on the portraits of Helen Batchelor nee Cross. I hadn't thought to look - or rather - we weren't really sure which sister it was, out of a few she had.
We already combed through Fred Tyree's wedding portrait and had seen them in there. Most of the other people are members of the Scott family (I haven't looked for them in the NPM collection either). Only so far out you can spread.
Yes we quite recently decided that the pictures around the house and garden are not sister-in-law Grace Beveridge Tyree after all but sister-in-law Polly Tyree.


[/quote]

Quoting myself just to clarify that you were right, Darian, and Graeme was wrong.

This is Mary Ann Tyree (née Cross). The different hairstyle was adopted later on by Mary Ann and also her sister Ellen Smith Batchelor (née Cross) as can be seen in other photographs, including two with them together. They look very similar as young women and as older women as well.

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/P36503/tyree-wedding-group

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/58595/tyree

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/132088/batchelor-mrs

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/13164/batchelor-mrs

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/142270/tyree-mrs

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/P33833/tyree-mrs-w

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/P33834/tyree-mrs-w


And 3 photos of Polly with Mary Ann Tyree (née Cross) or Mrs. William Tyree:

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/33245/tyree-house

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/31443/tyree

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/31442/tyree


Wrongly identified in this article as "cook and servant"

https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-post-1022/20141004/282982513200879?srsltid=AfmBOorEUyxCqKFPcopv1uznchy6hK9mCm0HGCXCwFlXFTWaNYLQiVM3

Polly's father, William Tyree Sn

 https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/34386/tyree#

[/quote]
[/quote]

4
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: drownings in the thames
« on: Friday 27 June 25 18:38 BST (UK)  »
Public comments Photo of William Tyree I (1820-89) - Graeme Tyree, posted 2 years ago

This one has been a problem to identify because of the man's appearance making it hard to fit his age with members of the family who were in Nelson. However lighting and retouching have probably made him appear more youthful than he is.
Quite possible it is William Tyree Sr. There is a lot of similarity in appearance with his brother Frederick Jeremiah Tyree. The latest it could have been taken is 1889 at which time he would have been 69 years old. This man looks to be in his late forties to late fifties, and the men's fashion he is wearing indicates late 1860s to late 1870s,
If Graeme is correct I suspect this was taken at the establishment of Tyree Studio in 1878 when William was 58. However I do not know what information Grame is basing this identification on as he has not provided any evidence.
I have backed and forthed heaps of times on this issue myself between 2017-2025 as you can see from comments here:

https://www.geni.com/photo/view?album_type=photos_of_me&id=6000000020173155516&photo_id=6000000062713870919&position=0

I have now switched it back to being Willim Tyree Sr's profile picture yet again. Graeme is likley right, I just don't know what he is basing this on and his judgement has been incorrect before from lack of cross-checking and making assumptions.



[/quote]

Quoting myself just to clarify that you were right, Darian, and Graeme was wrong.

This is Mary Ann Tyree (née Cross). The different hairstyle was adopted later on by Mary Ann and also her sister Ellen Smith Batchelor (née Cross) as can be seen in other photographs, including two with them together. They look very similar as young women and as older women as well.

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/P36503/tyree-wedding-group

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/58595/tyree

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/132088/batchelor-mrs

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/13164/batchelor-mrs

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/142270/tyree-mrs

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/P33833/tyree-mrs-w

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/P33834/tyree-mrs-w


And 3 photos of Polly with Mary Ann Tyree (née Cross) or Mrs. William Tyree:

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/33245/tyree-house

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/31443/tyree

https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/31442/tyree


Wrongly identified in this article as "cook and servant"

https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-post-1022/20141004/282982513200879?srsltid=AfmBOorEUyxCqKFPcopv1uznchy6hK9mCm0HGCXCwFlXFTWaNYLQiVM3

Polly's father, William Tyree Sn

 https://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/objects/34386/tyree#

[/quote]

5
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: drownings in the thames
« on: Friday 27 June 25 18:00 BST (UK)  »
Thanks Alan. I will take your (and AI's) word for it.


55 days? That's insane. Well it was really more of a sight-seeing trip than A to B  then.

The Moravian had a speed of 13 knots (see link below). She was a single-screw steamship, but was also a three-master, rigged for sail. My AI friend tells me that for a vessel like this the speed of 13 knots would be achievable under steam power, and under sail power with favourable winds.

The typical sea route from Melbourne is 13,508 nautical miles. If Moravian had maintained the speed of 13 knots continuously the journey would have taken 43 days.

An AI-generated estimate based on the coal capacity and fuel efficiency of similar ships of the time suggests a steaming range of between 3,100 and 3,700 nautical miles. Thus she would probably have relied quite heavily upon sail, and fallen back on steaming when the wind was unfavourable. She would likely have re-coaled in South Africa.

So all in all, a voyage of 55 days doesn't seem unreasonable.

https://mfo.me.uk/showmedia.php?mediaID=1911

6
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: drownings in the thames
« on: Friday 27 June 25 17:44 BST (UK)  »
Very likely. I know that William Jr. and Mary Ann Tyree migrated to Australia permanently some time between mid 1898- mid 1900. Polly Tyree seems to have had a close relationship with Mary Ann of all her in-laws. I had suspected she may have gone with them, or at the very least had travelled to Sydney to spend time with them first before boarding the Morovian for her fateful journey.

Darian,

Can you think of who these Tyrees might be? I had a look at the family tree on FS and I couldn't find a better option for Mr. Tyree, Mrs. Tyree, and Miss Tyree, than William Tyree Jn, his wife Mary Ann nee Cross, and Polly! As I understand it, they moved from NZ to Sydney in 1898 (change of address from NZ to Sydney seen on patent files).

 The Australian Star (Sydney, NSW : 1887 - 1909)  Thu 8 Sept 1898
 Page 4
 SHIPPING.

ARRIVALS — September 7.
Monowai, str., 3433 tons, Captain H. W. H.
Chattleld, from Dunedin, Lyttelton and Wel
lington. Passengers: Messrs. Edmonds, J. P.
Smith, Coutts, C. M'Donald, Hill, J. R. Thorn,
Sommervllie, Hirst, Gibson, Master Dashe, A.
Hail; J. C. Redmond, Gummoor, Skerrett, C.
Taylor, Solomons, J. Hoore, R. N. Fairbanlt,
C.P. Trevelyan Webb, J. Sinclair, Tyree, J.
G. Selby, Denby, F. Truman, Struther, D.
O'Brien, Congdon, F. W. Fairthorne, Webb,
Mesdames Edmonds and maid, C. Magnus,
W. E. Burt, Hirst, Gibson, Toy and child,
Jefferd, Abbott, M'Dairmond, Rawnsley,
Docksray, C. W. Windehall, Cody and maid,
Webb, Crighton and child, Tyree, Struthers,
Congdon and infant, Allen. Misses Booth,
Burt (2), M'Kinnon, Cousins, Henry, David,
Rawnsley, Elcomb, Sommerville, Roberts,
Tyree, Harrison, Allen; also 39 in the second
cabin; - F. w. Jackson, agent.

7
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: drownings in the thames
« on: Friday 27 June 25 16:41 BST (UK)  »
Have you checked these records?

https://archives.victoria.ac.nz/search?utf8=✓&op%5B%5D=&q%5B%5D=tyree&limit=&field%5B%5D=&from_year%5B%5D=&to_year%5B%5D=&commit=Search

No I haven't. I had quite a bit of correspondence with Pat Brocklenbank and have the article she wrote on all of the members of the family and their photography careers, which was published in a magazine. She really did a great job researching in a time it was much more difficult than now. Les Cleveland I haven't heard of.

I don't know if there are a lot of images here I haven't seen or new info scanning quickly through it, but will pass the link on to a descendant who is doing his own deep dive into it.


8
London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests / Re: drownings in the thames
« on: Friday 27 June 25 16:29 BST (UK)  »
No, I had noty seen the comment. I don't know why he has come to this conclusion.
Firstly as he points out Anne Catherine Tyree nee Baker was dead by 1885.
If this woman were Anne Tyree, then Mary would be 12-13 years old and she's certainly not that young here. 
The photo Mary Hodgman Tyree holds is I think I've already pointed out George Edwin Field and that was taken in 1893 as it was in a session with his family including the youngest an infant at the time who was born 1893. These were obviously being printed in the studio at the time the portrait of Mary Ann Tyree and Mary Hodgman Tyree was done and she's picked it up.
All that said there are many portraits of this same woman and by appearance and circumstance it is clear she is the wife of William Tyree Jr, not Sr; and that it is Mary Ann Tyree formerly Evans nee Cross. She also appears in more than one portrait with her sisters including Fred Tyree's wedding portrait, as well as in portraits with her only child Jack, and in a portrait taken in Sydney later on in life after she and William Jr had moved there permanently from the late 1890s. 
Anne Catherine Tyree had one known sister Sarah Baker and I doubt she ever set foot in the Antipodes.
 
I do not know why he thinks a woman cannot change her hairstyle over time. Or why he thinks people cannot look very different from photo to photo even taken at the same time; lighting can do some incredible things as well as style changes not to mention a bit of retouching.
 
Three strikes and you're out; that's about 5 so not following up on how he came up with a death date that isn't even correct. It transpires that Doreen Tyree was not the only person to find the correct cause of death and date so not really interested in how he came up with 1902.


9
Thanks Spades and thank you to everyone who contributed to unraveling this mystery. One of the more interesting ones that has been solved by RootsChat members. That took 8 years from the first time a Tyree descendant contacted me and we started trying to find out what happened to her.

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