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Messages - Jan007

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1
Tipperary / Re: Hayes of Carrigatoher Tipperary
« on: Thursday 31 March 16 22:34 BST (UK)  »
Well everyone I have some resolution.  There is a paper trail and proof of some of these relationships.  My Thomas Hayes (b 1829 to John Hayes and Bridget Quigley) is the sibling of Catherine Hayes wife of Adam Young.  Bridget (the mother) did die in Australia so she also immigrated to there.  I will still work on the Matthew line but am leaning toward the idea that Matthew who married Catherine Bourke was the son of John and Bridget.  This is based partly on the fact that Matthew is buried in the same grave ad Bridget in Stawell.  Also buried there are 2 of his children and the mother is identified as Catherine Bourke (thank you Gerry for this information).

Just to recap  Thomas and his family who went to the USA .  Catherine and at least her mother went to Australia.  I believe I found her passenger list as well which says she is going to her brother in Ballarat so at least 1 brother was there too for sure.

Where does this leave things for the Matthew who married Honora Carmody?  Based on trying to compile all of the information presented so far with what records I have seen (mostly the digital images from the parish records)here's my conclusion.  Matthew Hayes married Hanora (written as Judith in the record book) in Feb 1858.  He was born 1839 the son of Matthew Hayes and Ellen Berkery who were married 1821. He was the 2nd child they named Matthew. 

Matthew and Hanora also had a son Matthew in 1867 that apparently left Ireland in 1889 and married a woman he met on the ship (see a previous post in this string for details from his family).

In looking at the parish registers from Youghalarra I find that John Hayes and Bridget  had the greatest number of children with the surname Hayes from 1829-1860.  That's followed by Matthew Hayes and Ellen who had 6 that I found.  After 1860 only 2 families with the Hayes surname were prolific- Thomas (son of John) and his wife Catherine, and Matthew (son of Matthew) and his wife Honora.  It's apparent that most of the other Hayes people had either not survived to adulthood or had left the area.  I'm inclined to believe that Thomas and Matthew may well have been cousins.  Perhaps their fathers (John and Matthew) were brothers.

I'd love to hear back from anyone on this.  As time has gone by more and more information has become available.  Anyone have anything new to add?

2
Tipperary / Re: Hayes of Carrigatoher Tipperary
« on: Tuesday 18 March 14 16:37 GMT (UK)  »
Unfortunately I have not yet gotten a response from the Research Service in Nenagh asking for clarification of their previous findings.  I did look into the online records they refer to on the web site.  What I found was that there were in fact 2 Matthew Hayes baptized in Youghalarra parish- one born to John Hayes/Bridget Quigley (who were married 1825) in 1831 and one born to Matthew Hayes/Ellen Berkery (who were married 1822) in 1837 (the 1839 birth didn't come up in my search).  Only 1 Matthew Hayes married in the Youghalarra parish and that was in 1858 to Hanoria Carmody.  But which Matthew was it?  Maybe a clue can be gleaned from Hanoria Carmody.  If her parents were Denis Carmody/Mary Cleary (married 1822), she is one of 3 children of that couple that I found.  She was eldest born 1831, Mary in 1836, and Denis in 1839.

Does it make sense that a woman born 1831 would marry a man born 1837?  Possibly.  She would have been 27 at marriage and 46 when her last child was born (1877 in Youghalrra parish).  The names of the children of Matthew Hayes/Hanoria Carmody also give a clue-  a girl named Ellen possibly after her grandmother (Ellen Berkery) and no boy named John which would have been a grandfather's name (John Hayes/Bridget Quigley).  No Ellens in the  Hayes/QUigley line at all where they are in the  Hayes/Berkery line.  And no Johns in the Hayes /Berkery line at all where they are in the Hayes/Quigley line.

The only hesitation I have is regarding Hanoria Carmody's birth in 1831.  Perhaps the 1831 child died and another was named the same later that did not come up in my search.  I was not successful using wildcards and the spellings varied so I may have missed some people (Hanoria, Hanora, Nora, Honora would all be separate searches).  Also searching in the particular parish requires entering a first name and I had to guess at those possible children of Denis Carmody/Mary Cleary.

For now I believe that Matthew Hayes that married Hanoria Carmody in Youghalarra parish was the son of Matthew Hayes/Ellen Berkery.  If I hear back from the research center I will update. And I'll keep this information in case something later links to it. That leaves me with no leads on any of the siblings of my Thomas Hayes.  Maybe they all died young or never married. 

Janet

3
Tipperary / Re: Hayes of Carrigatoher Tipperary
« on: Tuesday 11 March 14 16:13 GMT (UK)  »
Shirley,
I agree with your  idea about Ellen.  There are no Ellens in my Hayes family at all.  I find no "step" family in my John Hayes family.  John and Bridget were the parents of all the children between 1829 and 1844.

I note that  a Matthew Hayes was a sponsor for 3 of John's children- Honora in 1833, Michael in 1835 and Judith in 1841.  Hes' the only man that sponsored more than 1 child.  The only other  Hayes sponsor was a woman- Onny ( possibly Honora?) who also sponsored Michael in 1835.
Maybe this Matthew was  a brother of my John Hayes?

More  research needed.

Janet

4
Tipperary / Re: Hayes of Carrigatoher Tipperary
« on: Tuesday 11 March 14 15:50 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Gerry,
I'm still not certain that your Hayes family is from John Hayes/Bridget Quigley.  Here is why.  The research that I had conducted found no Edward Hayes as a child of theirs.  He could have been missed as his birth year of 1827 would fit the family.  But considering they found all of the others I'm inclined to think he was not their child.  Another discrepancy is with your Matthew.  You indicate his grave is marked that he was 54 when he died in 1889.  He would have been born 1834-1835.  My Matthew was born 1831.  You don't indicate what happened to siblings Honora (1833), Bridget (1837) or Judith (1841).  If the mother Bridget Quigley did emigrate with her family, I would have expected the others who were born in the years between to also be with them. 

I have the same marriage record for John Hayes/Bridget Quigley as found by the Family History Research Service in Nenagh.  They were the ones that provided the names and baptism dates for the 8 children of that marriage. All of the children from 1829-1844 share the same parents.   As I was focusing on my direct ancestor, their son Thomas, they also located his marriage to Catherine Hogan in 1859 and their 10 children.  Through records here in the US I have confirmed all of the children were correct as were Thomas's parents as John Hayes/Bridget Quigley.

Did you also use the Family History Research Service in Nenagh to find your records?  I was  pleased  with their service and  found what they provided to be accurate.  However it is possible that they are connecting families that don't belong together.  That happened to me in Limerick with another branch.  We discovered the error after a few correspondences with potential "family".

If you have baptism records for your Edward, Matthew, Michael, Catherine or Margaret I'd like to compare their sponsors with mine.  If you have birth years that would be helpful as well.  Do  you have anything  in the way of official documents that link any of these children to parents John Hayes/Bridget Quigley?  Also, did any of the children name their sons John?  Particularly did Edward, Matthew or Michael name their first son John?  That would  have been the naming tradition.  It was followed in my branch.  The expectation would be that each son would name their first son after the paternal grandfather- in this case John Hayes.  Although it's not a guarantee, it is a clue if they did.

Any thoughts?

Janet

5
Tipperary / Re: Hayes of Carrigatoher Tipperary
« on: Monday 10 March 14 21:00 GMT (UK)  »
Based on the idea that your Hayes family came from Matthew Hayes and Ellen Berkery and mine from John Hayes and Bridget Quigley we would not be related ( as far as records go back to show).  But the questions is about Matthew Hayes who married Hanora Carmody.    There seem to be conflicting online claims as to who his parents were- Matthew and Ellen or John and Bridget.  As you said, I wish they were her to explain it all. 

If Matthew were the son of John, you would expect one of his children (probably the eldest son) to be named John.  But none were.  That would lead me to start to believe that Matthew was not John's son, but Matthew's.  However, Matthew's age at marriage to Honora was very young for the time, only 19 if he were born in 1839 to Matthew and Ellen.  The Matthew that was the son of John and Bridget was born 1830.   If he married in 1858 the age would be more appropriate.  Any thoughts?

What I do notice is a lot of common surnames names between your sponsors and mine.  I'd say we have some sort of connection, maybe a generation back.  Since the records don't go that far back, we may never know if my John and your Matthew may have been brothers.

But I'm still hoping to find a definitive answer about Matthew born 1831 in my family.  If you are certain your younger Matthew was born  1839 then they are not the same person and I will have to continue to search.

Janet

6
Tipperary / Re: Hayes of Carrigatoher Tipperary
« on: Friday 07 March 14 17:22 GMT (UK)  »
I should add that my Thomas's immediate family as researched by the Nenagh center was spot on.  All of his children match exactly to other records I have found.  The marriage for Thomas and his wife Catherine Hogan is also correct.  The research results letter does not indicate any doubt about Thomas's parents being John Hayes/Bridget Quigley and considering that there are sponsors named Quigley for both Thomas's siblings as well as his children I believe in the connection.  Thomas's sibling (including Matthew) were derived by finding records for children with the same parents in the parish register.  A total of 8 children of John Hayes/Bridget Quigley were found between 1829 and 1844.  They also provided a marriage date for John H./Bridget Q. as 7 Feb 1825.  Do you have a marriage date for your Hayes/Bererky ancestors?

Are you aware that there is a Matthew Hayes on the Griffiths valuation in 1850 and also in the 1825 Tithe Applotment Books for that exact townland?  What I do not find is any mention of the names Berkery or Carmody.  More to follow up on.

7
Tipperary / Re: Hayes of Carrigatoher Tipperary
« on: Friday 07 March 14 17:02 GMT (UK)  »
Thank you for indicating your sources.  I received my information for the Nenegh center also.  I generally trust them, however I did have less success with "facts" from the center in Limerick.  They made an error which connected my Ahern family with a family in Australia.  After a bit of correspondence between those descendents and me we both concluded that there was an error.  It is possible that there is also an error in the Nenagh research.  Is there any other source for the parish records aside from contacting the parish directly?  I wonder if the Nenagh center would re-visit their work to check for an error, although mine was done 20 years ago.  I may try to contact them regarding the family to see what their fee would be to do a bit more work.

 Did you receive any baptism records from the center?  If so, would you list the names of the godparents/sponsors in a reply?  The surnames for sponsors  of my Thomas and his siblings were Grady, Quigley, Lacy, Brian, Hayes, McGrath, Farrell, Kenna, and Hogan. Thomas's brother Matthew was sponsored by John Lacy and Mary Brian.   

The surnames for the sponsors of the children of my Thomas were Hogan, Hayes, Flynn, Quinn, Quigley, Dwyer, McDonnell, Ryan.  I also have Hogan ancestors from that exact area (Thomas's wife was Catherine Hogan).  The surnames of people that were sponsors for Hogan children were Hogan, Hanly, Ryan, Ready, Whelan, Flynn,Walsh, Rowhan,Moran.  Do any of these names match what you received? 

8
Tipperary / Re: Hayes of Carrigatoher Tipperary
« on: Thursday 06 March 14 15:20 GMT (UK)  »
Unfortunately my Hayes family did not have an  Edward as a son of John Hayes/Bridget Quigley.  I am certain I have the baptism records of all of the children from my Hayes family group, and Edward is not one of them.  It is disappointing that I can't seem to find any records of the siblings of my Thomas Hayes.  The closest I have come is a previous post in this string from a man who had visited the parish in Ireland and confirmed that his Matthew Hayes was brother of my Thomas and son of my John Hayes/Bridget Quigley.   For all I know the other siblings may not have even survived into adulthood.  According to records I have seen there were only 6 Hayes families living in that area in 1851.  It was one of the least common names in that very particular area at that time.  You would think that would make them easier to track, but it doesn't.  I will continue to look for connections.

9
Tipperary / Re: Hayes of Carrigatoher Tipperary
« on: Monday 03 March 14 22:26 GMT (UK)  »
I am still interested in making contact with anyone related to the Hayes (or Hogan) family from Youghalarra parish in Tipperary, especially the civil parish of Burgesbeg or in Carrickatogher.  Although many of the posts here are promising, I am still seeking someone that has the documents to prove a relationship.  I have baptism records from my branch as well as some marriage records from the parish.  My ancestor is John Hayes married to Bridget Quigley who had Thomas Hayes married to Catherine Hogan.  I am especially looking for information on Thomas's siblings.  Thomas immigrated to the US about 1888 with his wife and all of his children.  But not his siblings as far as I can tell.  The Australian posts offer some hope, however there are a few discrepancies that make me question a relationship.  Since civil records didn't exist in this early period, has anyone else requested parish records that can verify your relationship to John Hayes/Bridget Quigley? I am particularly interested in exchanging information with Bernie as his list of family members from the priest matches mine from the parish records.

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