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Messages - Zacktyr

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1
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: 1 Word in Heraldic Description of a Crest - need help deciphering
« on: Thursday 15 May 25 23:39 BST (UK)  »
Hello manukarik,

Thank you for taking a look at this for me.  I appreciate your time and input and I think you've cracked it! 

This King of Arms did use French for a few of the words in the description, e.g. "mollet" for 'mullet', so I think that "charnue" would fit as the word, the spelling throughout being representative of the era, 1566. 

Certainly, the crest, as shown in my original post, shows a man who is full figured and not the typical sparse representation of a man in armour.  Yet, the crest description says "a man of arms".  So, I think the word "fleshy" perfectly describes this crest.

Thank you, again.


Quote from: manukarik on Thursday 15 May 25 18:23 BST (UK)
I keep wondering if sharnue is charnue = plump or fleshy?

2
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: 1 Word in Heraldic Description of a Crest - need help deciphering
« on: Thursday 15 May 25 23:33 BST (UK)  »
Hello HughC

Thank you for taking a look at this for me.  I appreciate your time and input.

I've attached a screenshot of the name - highlighted in yellow - for this grant of coat of arms.  It's Adam Darnell of Thorneholme, Lincolnshire.  I found a reference to this coat of arms in an obscure text that indicated that the arms were in abeyance as of 1640, so never made it into any of the heraldry texts and references.  I have included a screenshot of the crest itself as it matches the description in the grant and I think manukarik has solved the word "sharnue".

This King of Arms used French terms throughout the grant - not many, but enough to indicate that he leaned on his knowledge of French for descriptions, e.g. he used "mollet" for 'mullet'.  The spelling throughout, of course, is very indicative of the era of its' creation, 1566.


Quote from: HughC on Thursday 15 May 25 18:11 BST (UK)
Burke's General Armory gives no such blazon for Darnel or Darnell,
but there are couple of families of Darrel or Darrell with crest

Out of a ducal coronet or, a Saracen's head couped at the shoulders proper, bearded sable, wreathed about the temples argent and azure, on the head a chapeau of the last, fretty of the third, tasselled gold, turned up ermine.

The word 'sharnue' would appear to be invented!
Certainly Complete Guide to Heraldry by Fox-Davies gives no clue as to what it might mean.

3
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: 1691 burial in Lilleshall
« on: Thursday 15 May 25 17:45 BST (UK)  »
Hi,

I agree with DRH123 on the content of this entry. 

Here is a transcription/extract of the entry in full:

"Anchorett Bell widow was March ye 22d Anno prdict Buried"

Note that I have interpreted her surname as Bell, not Bill.  The reasoning for this is that all other letter "i"s on the page have been very distinctly dotted above but no dot appears above this surname.  The second letter in the surname appears to have been written as a letter "e" but it has been somewhat converged with the third letter "l".  For this, I compared the downstroke to the downstroke of the letter "e" in the word "Margaret" three lines above.

4
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / 1 Word in Heraldic Description of a Crest - need help deciphering
« on: Thursday 15 May 25 17:26 BST (UK)  »
Hello Rootschatters,

I have one word in an heraldic description of a crest on the coat of arms of Adam Darnell granted in 1566 that I have been unable to reconcile and am wondering if anyone may have the answer for me.

The crest is described in the grant as follows (with original spelling from 1566):

"I have given unto hym by waye of encrease for his creaste and Cognissaunce on a wreathe or  & azure a man of armes hedd the breste and face sharnue havynge on his lefte shoulder a polron thereon a scarfe gules mantelled gules doubled argent as more plainelie appearethe depicted in this margent..."

I have attached a screen shot of the text with the word "sharnue" or "sharnve" highlighted with yellow, and a screen shot of the crest.

Any assistance is greatly appreciated.  Thank you.

5
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: Two cryptic words - 1800s French
« on: Wednesday 07 May 25 22:57 BST (UK)  »
Hello, everyone,

Thank you to each and every one of you for tackling this cryptic little phrase.  Joger's and Goldie61's conversation on paraph is very interesting.  I was a certified law clerk for 18 years and, like Shanreagh, had to affix my initials to the margins of many documents, particularly Wills.  But, never could an extra swirl be added.  So, it is very interesting to discover that those little fancy swirls actually have a term - a paraph.  I have attached another image from the document to show the fancy identical fancy swirl after the initial in the margin and at the foot of the page. 

For MichelBaboulinet, you may find the two highlighted capital "C"s interesting in the context of the second word in the margin entry.  This is what lead me to adopt "a cote" as a hastily written possibility. For MichelBaboulinet I have also added an image of the capital "R"s found in various French documents and have highlighted the one that closely resembles the first letter in that second word.  This image is from BYU's French Handwriting website.

As to that one cryptic word, between Zefiro's input regarding the meaning of "à côté de" and PatLac's contributions that have convinced me that the word is "Rôle", defined as being the front and back of a page of a notarial deed.  That word has no direct translation in English.  But, in English we use the word "folio" to describe a sheet of paper, both front and back, or recto and verso.

So with that said, I believe I can put this little puzzle to rest.  Thank you, again, everyone.  Sometimes, it takes a village to get to the facts.

6
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: Two cryptic words - 1800s French
« on: Saturday 03 May 25 20:29 BST (UK)  »
Hello Zefiro and PatLac,

Thank you both, so much, for taking a look at this little cryptic puzzle for me.  Between both of your responses, I think I may have cracked it.

I took a look at the notary's signature on the document - his name was Francois Habrial - and sure enough he has added a fancy swirl at the end of his name but before adding the word 'Notary', which is identical to the swirl that follows the "h" in the original image.  I've attached an image of his signature showing that swirl.  That same swirl is also used at the bottom of each page under the text of the page.  So, I think the second word is the notary's first letter of his last name, "H" with the swirl.

One phrase in French that I know of that could possibly explain the first word in that second line is "à côté de", or 'by' in the sense of a person attending to the document.  So, I am wondering if that word is a hastily and poorly written "à côté".

Putting the two parts together it would make sense that the Notary would have to initial each two-sided folio in the document.

Does this make sense to one or both of you?

7
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Two cryptic words - 1800s French
« on: Saturday 03 May 25 18:39 BST (UK)  »
Hello Rootschatters,

I have tried running this image through AI and through Transkribus and neither was able to give me an answer.  Attached is an image of a margin entry at the bottom of the last page of a Notarial Act.  I have the top line but can't make any sense out of the lower line.  Can anyone help, please?

The top line is
troisième et dernier.

8
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: 1786 French Sales Document - need help deciphering a few words
« on: Monday 31 March 25 16:49 BST (UK)  »
Hello Zefiro,

Ah, yes.  I know exactly what you mean as I come across this in transliterating very old English court documents.  So, it is perfectly logical to think that the same thing happens to clerks who are writing in other languages.  Your example is a brilliant find. Thank you so much.

9
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Re: 1786 French Sales Document - need help deciphering a few words
« on: Sunday 30 March 25 17:20 BST (UK)  »
Hello Zefiro,

Thank you so much for looking at this and solving the problem of the "Rompis" and "Imp. de Rompis".  The Google map shows this phrase immediately next to what appears to be a farm property.  So, I mistook it for being the name of the property and the laneway being the driveway.  Trying to discover what a "Rompis Ren/u/v/r" was, I did nothing but go around in circles.


As to Renferfermés, I was looking at that as being two words but couldn't make any sense of it, again because I couldn't decide what the final letter was, as noted above. 

This document is merely an extract of the actual sales document and only mentions the two parties and the location of the land.  What you have interpreted as  fossé, I had interpreted as forré, which, of course, is nonsense and translates into no known English word.  So, I have to agree that fossé is correct supported by the Cambridge Dictionary, which states that a fossé is
Quote
a long narrow hollow dug in the ground especially one to drain water from a field, road etc
.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/french-english/fosse#google_vignette

Again, thank you for solving this one for me.  Your time and expertise is greatly appreciated.

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