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Messages - Jeff Holzgrefe

Pages: [1] 2
1
Kent / Re: Cory's from Deal
« on: Thursday 17 November 11 23:13 GMT (UK)  »
Dear AJ,

Thanks for your heroic efforts in researching these family lines.  Unfortunately, I fear that I've sent you on a fool's errand.  There are just too many Elizabeth Ann MAYs born about 1835 floating around east Kent to conclusively establish her parentage.   Thank you so much for trying.  I would be most grateful though if you would be so kind as to forward the details of Thomas William CORY and Elizabeth Ann MAY's children.  That will do it for me.

Needless to say, if I can help you research something you only have to say the word.

All the very best,

Jeff Holzgrefe 

2
Kent / Re: Cory's from Deal
« on: Wednesday 16 November 11 16:38 GMT (UK)  »
Dear AJ,

The second loose end is as follows:

I'm trying to find the parents of Elizabeth, wife of Edward HARRIS (b. 1837) and mother of Alice Elizabeth HARRIS (1872-1963).  I have neither found a marriage for her nor any mention of her maiden name in any of the sources I've checked.  Again, here's what I know:

16 Nov 2011                   Family Group Sheet
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Wife: Elizabeth   #5850 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Born: abt 1848             in Durham, England  1
        Father:
        Mother:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
       Husband: Edward Harris    #5849 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Born: 1837                 in Smeeth, Kent, England  1,2
      Baptized: 22 Oct 1837          in Brabourne, Kent, England  3
        Father: James Harris #6185
        Mother: Amelia Bailey #6011
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     F Child 1: Alice Elizabeth Harris #5498 
      Baptized: 26 Dec 1872          in Folkestone, Kent, England  4,5,1
          Died: 1963                 in Thanet, Kent, England  6
        Spouse: Maurice Henry Cory  #5497  d. 1944 
       Married: abt 1891             in   7
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     F Child 2: Sarah Jane Harris #5851 
          Born: 1876                 in Dover, Kent, England  8
      Baptized: 26 March 1876        in Great Mongeham, Kent, England  9
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     F Child 3: Rose Harris #5852 
          Born: 1881                 in Folkestone, Kent, England  1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1) British Census 1881, Parish Folkestone, County of Kent,
RG11/  1008/ 59 p  52
(2) British Census 1841, Parish of Smeeth, County of Kent, England, Name:
   Edward Harris
Age:    3
Estimated Birth Year:    abt 1838
Gender:    Male
Where born:    Kent, England
Civil parish:    Smeeth
Hundred:    Bircholt
County/Island:    Kent
Registration district:    East Ashford
Sub-registration district:    Brabourne
(4) British Census 1891, Parish Deal, County of Kent, Class: RG12; Piece: 738;
Folio 143; Page 39;
(5) England Birth and Christenings -- 1538-1975, (Family Search), Name:    Alice
Elizabeth Harris
Baptism/Christening Date:    26 Dec 1872
Baptism/Christening Place:    Folkestone, Kent, England
Father's Name:    Edward Harris
Mother's Name:    Elizabeth Harris
(6) England & Wales, Death Index, 1837-1915.
(7) British Census 1911, Parish Deal, County of Kent.
(8) British Census 1881, Parish Folkestone, County of Kent, Class:  RG11;
Piece:  1008; Folio:  59; Page:  52
(9) England Birth and Christenings -- 1538-1975, (Family Search), Name:    Sarah
Jane Harris
Baptism/Christening Date:    26 Mar 1876
Baptism/Christening Place:    Great Mongeham, Kent, England
Father's Name:    Edward Harris
Mother's Name:    Elizabeth Harris

Any help you can give me in solving this final, little mystery would be tremendously kind of you and enormously appreciated by me.

With thanks and best wishes,

Jeff Holzgrefe

3
Kent / Re: Cory's from Deal
« on: Wednesday 16 November 11 16:27 GMT (UK)  »
Dear AJ,

My apologies for being so tardy in thanking you for your last post which certainly settled, in my own mind at least, the parentage of William Henry BAILEY.  I've been out of town on business.

I'm in the home stretch now.  I have done as much research as I think I'm going to on this family.  Only a couple of loose ends to tie up.  Any help you can give me will once again be hugely appreciated.

Loose end number 1:

I'm trying to find the parents of Elizabeth Ann MAY, the wife of Thomas William CORY (1832-1914).  Family historians give her three or four different sets of parents, but having checked as many sources as I can, I can't find proof one way or another.  Here's what I do know:

16 Nov 2011                   Family Group Sheet
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Wife: Elizabeth Ann May   #5796  died at age: 59
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Born: abt 1835             in Ramsgate, Kent, England  1,2
          Died: 1894                 in Deal, Kent, England  3
      Baptized: 22 Feb 1835          in Margate, Kent, England  4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
       Husband: Thomas William Cory    #5795  died at age: 82
       Married: 19 Oct 1857          in     her age: 22  his age: 25 5
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Born: 1832                 in Deal, Kent, England  6
      Baptized: 25 May 1832          in Deal, Kent, England  7
          Died: 3 Mar 1914           in Deal, Kent, England 
    Occupation:                      Boatman, Mariner  8,9
        Father: Richard Cory #5804
        Mother: Ann Clayson Langley #5805

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     F Child 1: Mary Ann Norris Cory #5799 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
     F Child 2: Sarah Sackett Cory #5801 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     M Child 3: Thomas Edward Cory #5847 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     M Child 4: Richard William Cory #5800  died at age: 74
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     M Child 5: Edward John Cory #5797 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     M Child 6: William Henry Worthington Cory #5846  died at age: 83
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     M Child 7: Maurice Henry Cory #5497 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     F Child 8: Harriet Annie Cory #5798 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     M Child 9: Thomas Edwin Cory #5802  died at age: 1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1) The Clayson Family Tree, (http://www.claysontree.com/AnnLangley.htm),
Accessed 5 Nov 2011.
(2) British Census 1871, Parish of Deal, Kent, England.
(3) England & Wales, Death Index, 1837-1915.
(4) Register of Baptisms, Marriages and Deaths, St. John the Baptist, Thanet, Margate, Kent,
England.
(5) Birth, Mariage & Death Certificates -- Kent -- 1837 to Present, Name:    CORY, Thomas , W ,
Year of Marriage:    1857
Entry Number:    79
Register:    D/14/1
Location:    Kent County Council.
(6) British Census 1841, Parish of Deal, County of Kent, England.
(8)RG11/ 998/ 37 p  35
(9) British Census 1911, Parish Deal, County of Kent.

Long story short, the 1871 Census gives Elizabeth Ann MAY's birthplace as Ramsgate and her birthdate around 1835.  An Elizabeth Ann May was also baptised at St. John the Baptist, Thanet, Margate on 22 Feb 1835.  And the Kent Birth, Marriage and Death certificates have her marrying Thomas William Cory on 19 Oct 1857.  If she were married in Deal there might be some information about her parents in the parish records.  If you have easy access to these records, I would be massively grateful if you could look her marriage up.

With best wishes,

Jeff Holzgrefe

4
Kent / Re: Cory's from Deal
« on: Saturday 05 November 11 16:49 GMT (UK)  »
Dear AJ,

I've run into a something of brick wall searching for William Henry BAILEY's parents.

As you discovered from the registry entry for his marriage at St. George's Parish Church, Deal on Oct 21, 1880, William Henry's father was a waterman by the name of Robert BAILEY.

You also raised the possibility that Robert Mummery BAILEY, Waterman of Chapel Lane, Deal, and his wife Catherine Susanna Elizabeth BAILEY may be William Henry's parents.  Evidence consists of the fact that Robert Mummery BAILEY and Catherine Susanna Elizabeth BAILEY had two sons, William Henry, and William James, who were baptised in Deal on 18 March, 1857 and 2 December, 1859 respectively.  This fits nicely with William Henry BAILEY's age of 24 and his father's name and occupation recorded in his marriage entry. 

However, you dismiss the possibility that this Robert and Catherine were William Henry's parents because their first child "must have died for there to have been a second William and that William is not William Henry."

Normally, I'd agree without hesitation, but there is nothing normal about the BAILEY family!  For instance, according to the 1891 Census, William H. BAILEY, age 41, had a younger brother Willie H. BAILEY, age 39 (and a wife Caroline Elizabeth BAILEY, age 40, and sons Wallace James BAILEY, Robert Isaac BAILEY and Willie R. BAILEY) living with him at 10 Market St. Deal on census night.  While the birth dates (abt 1850 and abt 1852 versus 1857 and 1859) fit poorly with the William Henry BAILEY and the William James BAILEY who were the sons of Robert Mummery BAILEY, you do have the truly bizarre coincidence that in 1891 my William Henry BAILEY had a brother, two years younger than he, who possessed virtually the same name.  In other words, it seems to me that Robert Mummery BAILEY and Catherine Susanna Elizabeth BAILEY had two sons, William and Willie, born two years apart, who both lived to adulthood.

I've looked for supporting evidence for this hypothesis (and for anything on Robert Mummery BAILEY and Catherine Susanna Elizabeth BAILEY generally), but have drawn a blank.  It is not that I just cannot find any supporting evidence.  The problem is I haven't found anything which disproves my suspicion that Robert Mummery BAILEY is William Henry BAILEY's father either.

Two questions: in light of the above, do you still think that Robert Mummery BAILEY and Catherine Susanna Elizabeth BAILEY can't William Henry BAILEY's parents?  And if so, do you have any additional evidence that decides the matter one way or the other?

Once again, my very deepest thanks for all your assistance with my research.

With best wishes,

Jeff 

5
Kent / Re: Cory's from Deal
« on: Tuesday 01 November 11 13:08 GMT (UK)  »
Hello AJ,

You don't you if any of this will be of use?  Are you kidding?  You have solved yet another mystery!

William Henry Bailey's mother was indeed Caroline Elizabeth Bailey.  The smoking gun is the 1881 Census which reveals all three generations living together at 26 Middle St Deal -- James Thomas Bailey, his wife Mary Ann, their daughter Caroline Elizabeth and her son William Henry.  Thank you so much.  I would never have thought to look for an earlier marriage. 

Sad story, by the way.  It appears that Caroline Elizabeth got married, had a son, lost her son, and then her husband all within two months in 1876 (she married one week before she gave birth presumably to ensure that her child would be legitimate).

I haven't had a chance to research your Robert Mummery Bailey hypothesis.  I'll let you know what I uncover.

Once again thank you for all your help.  I simply couldn't have done it without you.

Jeff

6
Kent / Re: Cory's from Deal
« on: Saturday 29 October 11 19:16 BST (UK)  »
Dear AJ,

Thanks for the info on the Pitcher line.  I haven't had a chance to digest it yet as I've been chipping away at the Charles HENRY Bailey problem.  I'm pleased to report that I have finally discovered who his parents are.  They are, as I suspected but couldn't definitively prove, William Henry Bailey and Caroline Elizabeth Bailey.  I found the smoking gun in the 1911 census (attached below).  As you can see, Charles Henry Bailey (age 26) was married to Annie Bailey (age 28).  They had been married 7 years and had had four children of whom only Charles Henry (age 6) and Caroline (age 2) survived.  (Note that their other two children William John and Robert Isaac both died before the 1911 census).  In short, everything above is consistent with what is known about the Charles Bailey who was the son of William Henry Bailey and Caroline Elizabeth Bailey.

What proves my claim, however, is that the census also reports that Charles Henry's two brothers, Robert Isaac (age 23) and Wallace James (age 28) were living with him at 10 Chapel St. Deal on census night.  This fits, firstly, with the Wallace J Bailey who was the son of William H Bailey and Caroline E Bailey and hence the brother of Charles R Bailey according to the 1891 census (attached).  Further confirmation that Wallace James Bailey was the son of William H Bailey and Caroline Elizabeth Bailey can be found in fact that a Wallace James Bailey, son of Willie Henry Bailey and Caroline Bailey, was baptised on 2 Apr 1884 at St. George's Church, Deal.  (This would make Wallace 28 at the time of the 1911 census).  Second, Robert Isaac Bailey, another son of Willie Henry Bailey and Caroline Bailey, was baptised on 15 Oct 1891 in Deal.  The 1891 Census also makes Charles Robert Bailey 26 at the time of the 1911 Census as was Charles Henry Bailey.

I think the above conclusively demonstrates that the Charles HENRY Bailey who was the father of Wallace James Bailey (b 1911). and the Charles ROBERT Bailey who married Annie Pitcher in 1903 and who, according to the 1891 census, was the son of William Henry Bailey and Caroline Elizabeth Bailey was one and the same person.

Let me know what you think.

Jeff Holzgrefe

Copyright images removed.   Only small sections can be posted for deciphering purposes. 
 

7
Kent / Re: Cory's from Deal
« on: Thursday 27 October 11 14:05 BST (UK)  »
Dear AJ,

A quick question.  Can you please confirm the birth and baptismal dates for Charles Henry Bailey 1 son of Charles Henry & Annie BAILEY, Waterman of 12, Princes Street?  There's a 12 month difference between the birth and baptismal dates you posted above (19/6/1904 (born 21/5/1905)  Charles Henry s/o Charles Henry & Annie BAILEY, Waterman of 12, Princes Street).

Many thanks,

Jeff

8
Kent / Re: Cory's from Deal
« on: Thursday 27 October 11 13:19 BST (UK)  »
Thanks Karen,

I'll continue to process all this and get back to you.

Best ones,

Jeff

9
Kent / Re: Cory's from Deal
« on: Tuesday 25 October 11 18:34 BST (UK)  »
Dear AJ,

You are almost certainly correct about Charles HENRY Bailey being the father of Wallace James Bailey.  Nevertheless, just to be entirely certain, I think I'll send off for the marriage certificate of Annie Pitcher and Charles R. Bailey of 1903.  It could be that the groom's name in the index is incorrect (http://extranet3.kent.gov.uk/sp/rois/details.cfm?Submit=Marriage&Register=D/15/2%20%20%20%20&Entry_Number=146%20%20&Forename=Annie%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20&Surname=PITCHER).  I'll let you know what, if anything, I discover.

In the meantime, would you be so kind as to research the Pitcher line of the family?  Perhaps that may be simpler.

Once again thanks for all your help.

Jeff Holzgrefe

 

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