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Messages - nospringchicken

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The Lighter Side / Re: BBC "WDYTYA" Series 12 Episode 3: Derek Jacobi
« on: Wednesday 02 September 15 20:03 BST (UK)  »
Found this episode to be the best so far.

Surprised some had never heard of him - and no-one has mentioned Last Tango in Halifax!!!

He was famous before the Internet - as far as fame went in those days.

As far as I remember he and Alan Howard (another name which disappeared off the Brit celeb radar such as it was then and who recently died) were major stage stars in the 1970s and 1980s with classical roles with older guard Laurence Olivier, Alec Guinness (who made a major TV splash with Tinker, Tailor,) John Gielgud and Ralph Richardson doing classical and movie roles and Kenneth Branagh seen as taking on the mantle after them all. They all came out of the closed shop repertory system, although Branagh may have crossed over.

Derek Jacobi's breakthrough TV role was in I Claudius.  He was also the TV Alan Turing. There was far more of a division then for actors between stage, TV drama, sitcom, soaps and movies, I think. He has made something of a comeback in recent years with a few stage performances, Last Tango and sitcom Vicious with Ian McKellan. I guess you could have compared him in '70s and '80s to Benedict Cumberbatch (he played Hamlet at the Old Vic) but without the internet, global reach, Asian audiences and stock exchange/football feel to fame and celebrity. It's different now with branded serials on so many platforms like Netflix, Amazon, Sky and other channels as well as BBC, ITV and boxed sets!!! However both cut their teeth on stage before TV breakthroughs.

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The Lighter Side / Re: BBC "WDYTYA" Series 12 Episode 3: Derek Jacobi
« on: Sunday 30 August 15 09:04 BST (UK)  »
I should, being a frank and open soul, really thank Mr and Mrs Google's little boy for his invention ... ;) hehe!!! :) Seriously there's some fascinating stuff on the internet about the common cause and similar precarious positions of Huguenots and Jews in Bordeaux and Guyenne at the time as religious persecution kicked in  - for example http://bit.ly/1PF7GQj

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The Lighter Side / Re: BBC "WDYTYA" Series 12 Episode 3: Derek Jacobi
« on: Sunday 30 August 15 08:23 BST (UK)  »
Hi Mowsehowse, he doesn't necessarily have Jewish ancestry as you know but ... With so much financially and status-wise concentrated on having an eldest son whether in the nobility or trade guilds, there may be a hidden history ... But one has to be extremely cautious - it's an interesting thought but nothing more without evidence.

The Huguenot/Nominal Catholicism is interesting too - a little like the conversos who became New Christians, many of whom ended up in Bordeaux from Spain and Portugal. 

In the mid to late 1500s Louis XIV did grant a limited residence to Jews on Guyenne so Joseph may have been involved in collecting money from them at the very least. So Guyenne had a special status as regards Jews.

Jews were also involved in the manufacture and dyeing of silk, for example, in Italy. But all this is bye the bye and establishment of a Jacobi- De La Plagne link before Deeek Jacobi's parents' marriage seems a much better bet.

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The Lighter Side / Re: BBC "WDYTYA" Series 12 Episode 3: Derek Jacobi
« on: Sunday 30 August 15 02:10 BST (UK)  »
Well of course Jacobus is Latin for James or Jack, although in the case of Jacobi in Derek Jacobi and de la Bastide (whom I'm assuming were Catholic), the surname was De Jacques - according to the link on the site http://bit.ly/1iaAt4A a de la Bastide is head of the judiciary in Trinidad if the site refers to current times. Doubtless many an aristocrat eyed the throne or even considered a feudal Republic with them at the head - if they could get the finance!

I was about to correct your James VII to III but then I remembered Scotland of course! That would have been a gross error on my part! It didn't get a mention, to answer your question - the Jacobi family were dismissed in a phrase as 'German bootmakers'.

If the De La Bastide, De Jacques, De la Plagne connection is correct, interesting that Derek Jacobi's parents hundreds of years later may have made what amounts to  a dynastic marriage - unless they were milling around the community of French  community descendants and it was a coincidence which can sometimes happen.

UPDATE: Derek Jacobi's German family came from Hoexter (Höxter) North Rhine Westphalia http://bit.ly/1JDXszr which was a "villa regia" in the time of Charlemagne which may well fit with the De La Bastide/De Jacques family. There are Christian Jacobi families still in Hoexter.

It is slightly confused in that it appears there was a Jewish Jacobi family (who probably adopted the surname around the 1700s/early 1800s when Jews were told to adopt surnames) in Fürstenau/Fuerstenau, Hoexter.

 Obviously the father or grandfather's name may have been Jacob hence Jacobi but sometimes Christian families did allow Jewish families to take their surnames for a variety of reasons. There is the variation of Jacoby.    http://bit.ly/1KUr5cg http://bit.ly/1EsymDp

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The Lighter Side / Re: BBC "WDYTYA" Series 12 Episode 3: Derek Jacobi
« on: Sunday 30 August 15 00:18 BST (UK)  »
A bit of a disingenuous episode - but hey he's an actor and a jolly good one! :)

The De La Plagne genealogy is charted at http://bit.ly/1F7C8wP The Greffier role appears to have been inherited from his father Paul in the wine region.

One major thing the programme left out is that Joseph's brother Alexandre also settled in London, so he was not alone. This seems a huge omission.

So Joseph 'couldn't get enough evidence' so shopped around and went on the attack in the Court Of Chancery where it was 'one person's word against another' and hearsay accepted without evidence. That was skipped over quickly!

Inclined to think there may be a grain of truth in the woman's (or more likely the woman's family and its male line) story. Her family may have been one of the contacts on the outside talked about earlier.

Agree about the possibilities of Joseph and Salome's son ... Born nine months after the marriage and he dies eight months after. The godfather thing ... Weren't godfathers sometimes the real father, although of course there may have been more than one godfather, so if it was that it wasn't necessarily the Duke but one of his set.

Strange how the silk weaving factories were introduced while of course it was pertinent to the Huguenots but not to Joseph who had a well documented inherited Bordeaux Guyenne  feudal position ... (Guyenne btw had passed between English and French kings a few times) Wonder whether Joseph was involved in the financing of this trade and got revenue from it? Just a thought. And guess just because Manze (or to be genealogically accurate Manze and Cooke) was introduced doesn't mean to say the de la Plagnes financed the eel pie and mash business unless it turns out the LaPlagne family married into the Manze or Cooke families! ;)

MAJOR UPDATE: This may be an ENORMOUS coincidence but it turns out, if it is verified, the original surname of the De La Bastide family into which Joseph De La Plagne married was De Jacques or JACOBI!!! http://bit.ly/1iaAt4A And nobody thought to put that in the programme?!!! The pies and mash are on Derek! Hehe!

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The Lighter Side / Re: BBC 1 WDYTYA: Series 11, Episode 4, Brendan O'Carroll
« on: Saturday 30 August 14 15:37 BST (UK)  »
Confessions of a Mrs. Brown viewer  :-X
However, it is a shame so much of it has been found to be online. nospringchicken has added quite a bit of information except one of her links on the Cairo gang says that Hardy died in the 20's while the expert on WDYTYA tells us he went on to be a banker and wrote two books  ???

Hi, According to this link in the Cairo Gang website Jocelyn Lee Herbert died in 1958. http://www.cairogang.com/escaped/hardy/hardy.html Which link did you find which stated he died in 1920? In fact there was also another one legged man in the auxiliaries which also begs a question.

Hi springchick

It was this link - here http://www.cairogang.com/murdered-men/angliss.html 
Almost at the end near the photo of the woman holding a pussycat.  Or have I read this incorrectly?  ???

CD

PS - Yes Heywood - agree with your statement.

I think in the programme it was claimed Angliss and Lee Hardy were the same man? However this website has pretty conclusive evidence that they were different men. Angliss and Lee Hardy are different men. However I did think that it was possible that at times they swapped identities ie gave each other's names. Also in the world of double, triple agents etc things can get pretty murky and maybe even the auxiliaries were playing off each other? This last sentence, I admit, is speculation but I think it may reflect the atmosphere of the time and I don't think it's wild speculation like claiming, say, that the O'Carroll family and Hardy were related or some other wild statement!!! In the light of the evidence I've found on the web I find the Brendan Carroll programme very twisty and turny. Brendan O'Carroll did often seem to be making a statement and then end with a questioning 'I would hope?'. By the way on a separate note his mother was an Irish MP.

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The Lighter Side / Re: BBC 1 WDYTYA: Series 11, Episode 4, Brendan O'Carroll
« on: Saturday 30 August 14 15:23 BST (UK)  »


Hi, According to this link in the Cairo Gang website Jocelyn Lee Herbert died in 1958. http://www.cairogang.com/escaped/hardy/hardy.html Which link did you find which stated he died in 1920? In fact there was also another one legged man in the auxiliaries which also begs a question.


sorry I know this is serious answer -  but I for some reason got the giggles when reading it --- forgive me... I am going out now so will not interrupt again  (maybe :) )
xin :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
[/quote]

I know, I know ... But I didn't mention Tarzan and Peter Cook and Dudley Moore ... ;)

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The Lighter Side / Re: BBC 1 WDYTYA: Series 11, Episode 4, Brendan O'Carroll
« on: Saturday 30 August 14 13:17 BST (UK)  »
Confessions of a Mrs. Brown viewer  :-X
However, it is a shame so much of it has been found to be online. nospringchicken has added quite a bit of information except one of her links on the Cairo gang says that Hardy died in the 20's while the expert on WDYTYA tells us he went on to be a banker and wrote two books  ???

Hi, According to this link in the Cairo Gang website Jocelyn Lee Herbert died in 1958. http://www.cairogang.com/escaped/hardy/hardy.html Which link did you find which stated he died in 1920? In fact there was also another one legged man in the auxiliaries which also begs a question.

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The Lighter Side / Re: BBC 1 WDYTYA: Series 11, Episode 4, Brendan O'Carroll
« on: Friday 29 August 14 14:19 BST (UK)  »
According to The Genealogist, Brendan O'Carroll's father, Gerard, then aged 10, was also badly injured in the Peter O'Carroll shooting https://www.thegenealogist.co.uk/featuredarticles/2014/who-do-you-think-you-are/brendan-ocarroll-149/

http://www.cairogang.com/escaped/hardy/hardy.html
Scroll down to see this information. The information appears to have been gathered by David Grant who runs the Cairo Gang website. http://www.davidgrant.org/david-grant/david_grant.htm David Grant asked for info on Jocelyn Lee Hardy on Rootschat in 2010.

'1920 Oct 16. Mr Peter O’Carroll was shot dead by the Military at his home in Manor Street Dublin. Dave Nelligan in WS380 cites Collins as saying they should "Concentrate on Hardy" as the perpetrator. Though clearly Peter O'carroll was not a senile old man, as his son's WS314 says his father was in Irish Republican Brotherhood and bought arms from British soldiers ...

'At 1.50am Peter O’Carroll and his wife Annie were awoken by a heavy knock on the front door of their home at 92 Manor Street. Mr. O’Carroll got out of bed and put on for his trousers and stockings. A night-time military curfew was in place in Dublin and the family was accustomed to such late night intrusions. Two of the O’Carroll’s seven children were members of the IRA: Liam was Adjutant of the 1st Battalion of the Dublin Brigade, while Peter Jnr was a member of ‘A’ Company of the same Battalion. Mrs O'Carroll later said that this raid was unusual in that there were only 2 or 3 men outside, rather than the lorry load who turned up on other raids. Peter O'carroll went to open the door, there was a thud then silence. When Mrs O'Carroll went down to investigate, she found her husband close to death. He had been shot once in the side of the head. There was no evidence of a struggle. The murderers pinned a note to his chest purporting to be from the IRA and claiming the murder. Peter O’Carroll had in fact been murdered by members of the Auxiliary Division of the RIC ...

'WS755. The full significance of the presence and activity of that 'Murder Gang" was illustrated by the perpetration of the slaying of Mr. O'Carroll. of: Manor St. One of his sons, Liam, was Adjutant of our (1st) Battalion; another, Peter, was a member of "A" Coy of the same Battalion. Not finding the boys at home, the. "Murder Gang" struck at the father

'WS 314 and WS594. Of Liam O'Carroll says My father and his father were members of the Irish Republican Brotherhood. Through my father, I became associated with the Nationalist Movement. ... We had a fair number of Lee Enfields. We were buying them at that time from British Army men. As a matter of fact, my father bought quite a quantity. He had a shop in Manor Street. These fellows, when they wanted a few drinks, would take anything out of the Barracks. The usual thing was that they would bring a parcel around; and he would give them five shillings in any case; it might be a pair of old boots; it might be two .45's. On one occasion, there was delivered to him a lorry load of petrol in two-gallon tins.

'WS380 Dave Nelligan (DMP Special Branch and IRA spy in Dublin Castle) An old man named, Carroll kept a locksmith's shop in Stoneybatter, a working-class quarter of the city. He had two sons, active Volunteers. Carroll had a visit from a British Army officer who warned him that if his sons did not surrender at the Castle before a given date he would be shot. Carroll. was found shot dead in his shop later. On his body was pinned a card: "Spies beware, I.R.A.". Tobin brought me a slip of paper and on it was written in Collins' writing: "Concentrate on Hardy". That was the name of the killer. MacNamara and myself knew this man well. Re was an Orangeman, with an artificial leg, on the Castle garrison and was an Intelligence Officer in the Auxiliaries and a very hostile killer ...

http://www.cairogang.com/murdered-men/angliss.html
Similarly scroll down for information on the murder of John Lynch.

'1920 Sept 23. John Lynch, a legal clerk carrying a large sum of money to Collins, was murdered in his hotel bed in the Exchange Hotel in Dublin by the Cairo Gang. Apparently Lt. Angliss, under the influence of drink, divulged his participation in the execution to a girl who inadvertently passed this information to an IIS informant. The porter at the hotel said

'...soldiers came to the door of the hotel at two o'clock in the morning, asked to see the register, looked for a name and went to room number six. They left. Nobody heard any sound. And some half hour or so afterwards two policemen came and knocked at the hotel and said to the night clerk: "We are going to guard room number six, where a man lies dying. The military told us to come here." All the next day they stood guard at that room, and did not even admit the proprietor of the hotel into that room. They supposed the man was dying. He was shot in the throat. The military held the inquest.'

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