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H Margaret  have you found  John?  In the 18181 census he was 6months old and Charlotte Lay/Manell was  age 32 born 1849.In the 1891 his age is wrong as he is down as 19 but it looks like it was interprated wrong as it has a line crossed through it which makes it hard to read it should be 9 i think and Charlotte is age 41 born 1850.In the 1901 John isn't on it and Charlotte's changed again age 50 born 1851.  are we following the same Charlotte. It's strange how both sides of the family didn't Know much if anything about John and Frederick have you found out any more about any of the family.
                     
                                                 Annette

Hi Margaret
 I haven't found out anything about Frederick but it looks like there was another brother called John W i think he might of died in the first world war as my aunt is convinced a brother died then she thought it was Fredrick as they didn't know about John ( born 1881 )  but when i looked at Hanborugh war memorial there is a John W Mansell on there  i assume it is the same one but as you have probably found out there is so many of them with the same names that it gets a bit confussing.  My mum remembers Mill End as where gg grandad lived and  Rose cottage where Kate lived it looks like she was called Woodley.I would love to find out when their mum died i even went to my local 
library for help (but it's in Plymouth ) they tried to help but couldn't find out anything from around the then.        Annette

hi Margaret
  This is so interesting to be able to find someone so close to my gran but have different memories yes i believe your right about there being a dispute in the family gran  allways seemed a bit upset with her dad we allways thought it was because her mum died when gran was young and her dad didn't do a very good job of bringing them up which might have something to do with your grandad saying their gran brought them up but in the 1901 census their mum was 50 and gran was 13 so i dont know if we remember the stories properly.Mum can remember millwood end and that there was other properties ( but not the names). gran worked at the priory for a while  she m married  William George johnson  they had 4 children and lived in wandsworth.

hi Margaret yes my mum has spoken about Kate and her son she cant remember HHS name my gran used to tell us stories of her growing up all the time unfortunately i cant really remember any. do you know when their mum died
       

                          Annette