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Messages - frirish

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1
Hampshire & IOW Completed Lookup Requests / Re: Tollerfields in Alverstoke
« on: Saturday 22 August 20 20:28 BST (UK)  »
Hello,
             I think I now have it sorted. Benjamin Anderson Lethbridge b 1830 had a relationship with Mary Ann Vale the wife of William. William was a sailor and often away. Benjamin`s father John was a tailor in Copperas Hill a specific area of Everton. Lo and behold William Vale`s father was a Hat-maker on the same strip in Copperas Hill. West Derby was a small rural back water at the time with about 4000 souls to speak of. They as merchants in the same trade had to have known each other. When Ben was younger he lived near a watch case maker and made chains for them. He would have sold his wares I would think in a haberdashery shop.
             Benjamin was a dance instructor and possibly met Mary Ann Vale that way. Her husband was often away come census time. She had a son and a daughter with him. Benjamin Anderson  II was born in June of 1853 and Mary Jane in Sept of 1855. Both were under Lethbridge.
Mary Jane was the name of Benjamin`s mother.
               She becomes Pauline and the Luddell or Suddell  ( latter could be Mary Ann`s surname and Suddell is an old clan name from Yorkshire where the Lethbridges were originally from .)  is added to her name as evidenced by her marriage record which included her father`s name. Clearly Ben and Pauline lived with Mary Ann as Benjamin snr married Jane Lambert in 1856. His choice of names for his first two children are telling- Emily Pauline and Benjamin Anderson ( II). Was he living a double life? Perhaps if he was present at Pauline`s wedding. I find British parish records give scant information as to what took place.  I image both sets of children must had a surprise to learn they has step siblings almost the same ages and names! But they may have never crossed paths.
As far as the Tollerfields go, I am on the right path with Alverstoke and am relieved they are not from the Dorset branch after all.
Thank you for your input on this challenging family. Much appreciated! BTW the name Pauline was used down the generations and a Pauline is my link to this line.
Cheers!
Frirish

2
Hampshire & IOW Completed Lookup Requests / Re: Tollerfields in Alverstoke
« on: Saturday 15 August 20 23:20 BST (UK)  »
Good morning Little Nell,

The baptism At St James the Less doesn’t mention her birth at all.

Name Pauline Mary Jane
Parents are given as William & Mary Ann Vale
14 Hankin Street
Dock Gate Man.

Benjamin William (same details) was baptised the same day.

They both have a A in the margin.

Hello
Was the baptismal in 1868 by any chance?
I was wondering what the A in the margin referred to and the lack of birth dates for the two.
There was a practice in the Catholic Church in Quebec for performing what was known as a conditional baptism to children born out of the diocese. The mother's word was not good enough and they required proof of baptism form the church were the child was actually first baptized.
My ancestors were in the US and refused to have their children baptized there and waited until they returned to Quebec. I wonder if there is a similar situation with the Vales. Their children could have been born in Devon.

3
Hampshire & IOW Completed Lookup Requests / Re: Tollerfields in Alverstoke
« on: Saturday 08 August 20 23:37 BST (UK)  »
John Tollerfield cannot be found in Portsmouth because he was born elsewhere. Am currently researching Postwick, Norwich as a possibility. If that pans out then Gloucestershire will be next.

4
Hampshire & IOW Completed Lookup Requests / Re: Tollerfields in Alverstoke
« on: Friday 07 August 20 20:51 BST (UK)  »
This line is making me dopey and obvious things are confusing me! I have researched the Dorset line up until 1790's when Poor laws were forcing them to move for town to town in Dorset. ( I did not research the Lethbridge line.) 
My rule of thumb is to disprove other people's trees and that has served me well for over 20 + years!
The geography is what is tripping me up as this is my first foray into southern England. It is hard to get data on migratory patterns.
I do know it was relatively easy to get employment in Portsmouth so it certainly could have been a magnet for Tollerfields in every county. More background research required on my part.
 

5
Hampshire & IOW Completed Lookup Requests / Re: Tollerfields in Alverstoke
« on: Friday 07 August 20 20:41 BST (UK)  »
1881 RG11/ 3661/90 p 12
21 Seacome St Everton
John Tollerfield Head 33 Seaman Winchman S F S S M b Portsmouth, Hampshire, England

Pauline Tollerfield   26   1855 (ACTUALLY 1853)
John Edwd. Tollerfield   5
Pauline Tollerfield   2
Mary A. Vale   48   mother-in-law.
It stands to reason that Pauline the 26 year old has the surname Vale.
What year was Lethbridge born in? Was her mother in law a Mary Ann?
And did her John Thomas Tollerfield from from Porstmouth?

Moderator comment: edited to remove cut & paste.  Please transcribe what you see.  Thanks

6
Hampshire & IOW Completed Lookup Requests / Re: Tollerfields in Alverstoke
« on: Friday 07 August 20 16:21 BST (UK)  »
 :o :o :o :o
Words fail me you two! I don't know where to start. Well first I don't understand the assumption that I am male...
When I said the two Paulines were different people, I was told they were not.
My initial question was about geography which was not answered.
I did not give details precisely because I already had them. At no time did I ask that my efforts be duplicated.  I have witnessed this phenomenon before and all it serves is to make me feel bad that someone would storm ahead and waste their time. Best to ask questions first.

As I have come to learn with public family history sites, mistakes are made by all involved myself included. But with the Tollerfield line I have encountered even more types of errors than I have  experienced to date. I post this as a cautionary tale.

I have come across errors made by ancestry themselves. Here are some examples for the Tollerfield line.
 in the Liverpool, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1935
Name:   John Tollerfield
Gender:   Male
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Map:   
Child:   Charles Tollerfield

Is incorrectly denoted as a marriage record when it's actually a baptismal record.

The individual who transcribed the data on the Tollerfield families in Liverpool saw fit to interchange data between the two most liberally.

The two Paulines are indeed two people!!!

Emily Pauline Lethbridge
Birth:  9th August 1858  - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Death:  1st Jun 1921  - West Derby, Lancashire, England
Marriage:  25 Dec 1876 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Spouse: Richard Henry Mills
F:Benjamin Anderson Lethbridge M: Jane Lambert

Pauline Jane Lydia (not Ludell) Vale (Vail, Vaile) Lethbridge was added for some reason.
Bapt: June 4 1868 Everton
Death: Dec 9 1895 Everton
Spouse: John Thomas Tollerfield 9 April 1873
Parents William Vail and Lydia Jane Hartley
_____________________________________________

On all census records available, John Thomas is recorded as being from Plymouth, Hampshire. Which had me doubting his link to the Dorset Tollerfiedsm despite an abundance of family trees would have me believe. Hence why I posted my question about geography.   
Long story short, he is actually from Postwick, Norfolk, Gloucestershire!

Now I can assure you that John Edward, Pauline, Margaret Jane, Annie Gertrude, Charles, Marion Gladys, Benjamin and  Harry Augustus are all Pauline Vale's children. My sources just have Pauline with no surname listed as mother. You are saying Lethbridge was listed so I am curious as to where that what listed. Remember the other Pauline married a Mr Mills!

To rule out the notion that Pauline Lethbridge became Pauline Vale, look at the date Ms Lethbridge married - Christmas Day in 1976. Ms Vale gave birth to her first son John Edward Tollerfield the April of that same year.

I don't have the answer as to why Lethbridge was attached to Vale. or how Vale became Luddel! 

7
Hampshire & IOW Completed Lookup Requests / Re: Tollerfields in Alverstoke
« on: Friday 31 July 20 19:21 BST (UK)  »
Pauline Leathbridge and Pauline Vale are two different ladies. So if Leathbridge is the mother I need to find the correct children. Pualine Vale may have only had a daughter Pauline then. Thank you for your research anyhow! I found John's dad in Wareham and all is good! Oh and yes Baggs is the correct mother. Job well done! :D

8
Hampshire & IOW Completed Lookup Requests / Tollerfields in Alverstoke
« on: Friday 31 July 20 18:15 BST (UK)  »
Hello all!
I am searching John born circa 1848 in Portsmouth. He was a sailor, a winch man in fact and emigrated to Everton where he married the lovely Pauline Vale. Here is what I need to make sense of: I thought it seemed reasonable that he might have been from Dorset, Wareham to be exact, but is that really feasible?
If truth be told I am praying this is not the case, as the trees covering those generations are well, a dog's breakfast! (Children from couples with the same names are intermixed despite the fact that one couple is C of E and the other Dissenters!)
Now John and Pauline had some not so common names for their children which I hope may catch someone's attention. Gladys and Gertrude being the most uncommon.

Thanks to Jed, he discovered maiden name of Baggs in Warehnam for his mother!
While I agree the Tollerfield surname often got mangled, it has been my experience that more often than not it was written correctly for the older generations I researched. ( John and Jane Courtney for example, whom I now believe are not a correct branch.)
Can someone be so kind as to suggest if I ought to remain in Alverstoke or head back to Dorset? One other clue: the Dorset crew, understandably did not have any mariners in the family! Thank you in advance for any advice. Cheers!

9
Kerry / Re: Waterworks Timekeeper -- Scant Info..
« on: Sunday 07 June 20 16:39 BST (UK)  »
A time keeper was the forerunner of what we now know as the payroll dept.! So you will find this occupation in all sorts of workplaces-my relly was one at a steamship company. So the original name meant the person who kept record of everyone's work time in essence a clerk.

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