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Hi Sparrat,

Sue: I am not sure who previously purchased Lila's death certificate but it was readily available. I got that emailed as a pdf . It still cost $41.  There are 9 living children plus 2 married females.  BUT the informant is "no relation".    okay that's it for tonight.  Will compare this list with what I have  here. 

Essnell.

Hi Sparratt,
Sue  if I could go back in time I think I might just ......... I am so frustrated with this lot. 

Iow I am taking trees as a springboad and I know that there are big issues there.   So I have spent the last 8 or so hours on the relevant government indexes.    I have some sanity from there but not a lot. 

 They are almost as irregular as anything else at this point.     it
EG.   I have been looking for Annie Murray  born c 1923. 

Alice E Murray:  I have found nothing on either of the government search indexes but I did find when I searched her on Ancestry a citation for her birth from the Australian Birth Index:

Here is what it said:  Date:1889 NSW. 
Registration year: 1889
Place Paddington,
Parents: William and Alice
Reg No:  33482.


So I looked up that reg no.   It was for a totally different person.  I also  found her death that same year, in Sydney, Mother Alice  Ref No 1627.
So I am removing her from the list.   

However:  This info appeared  later:   William Walter Murray’s father was William Murray no dates etc.. but he was married?  To Catherine “Kate” Rogers. 
Catherine [Kate] was born c1854  and died 1890 aged 36 yrs in Deniliquin, NSW.  The child from 1889-1889 was, I believe, hers .  I will try to get her death Cert to confirm this.   
Their son in 1872 was William Walter Murray.

 William Walter Murray, Tribal name ‘Goonah’ is the same person as Lila’s husband 1872-1954
William’s second wife after Lila Died in 1919 is Alice Colger born 1902 Island Aboriginal Settlement, Balranald, Murrumbidgee, Mutthi Mutthi Nation, South-West NSW, Aust.
She died 29-12-1975  Mooroopna, Goulburn, Bangrang Nation, Victoria. Aust.

The following are their children
**  Albert Herbert Murray
Info so far:  Birth date: 1921 Reg No: 21070/1921.
Place: Balranald, NSW.
Parents: William Murray and Alice  Colger

Marriage: Date: 1942
Ref  Reg No: 13490/1942 
Groom:  MURRAY,  HERBERT
Bride:    KELLY,  SARAH
Place: HILLSTON…..it’s in the Riverina District on the Lachlan River.

 Spouse:  Sarah Campbell Kelly 
 This couple have  5 children: 3 male and 2 female all private.
Death:
Name
Albert Herbert Murray
Death Registration Date
1985
Death Registration
Place    Victoria, Australia
Father  William Murray
Mother  Colger
Reference Number   12751

***  Bert Murray
Info so far:
 Birth Date: 1922
Place:  Balranald, NSW.
Marriage :
Date: 1941
Place Balranald, NSW. 
Spouse: Beatrice Kirby
About Beatrice Kirby :   1931-1985

Parents are  :  Arthur F.S. Kirby  and Laura Murray 1915
Laura is the daughter of William Walter Murray and LiLa Lily Atkinson. 
   [NSW Reg No: 27041/1915  This is Moulamein  but Specifically ….
                   Speewa Crossing NSW ]
  Laura and Arthur married in 1934. Reg No: 17888/1934.   
   They have two children.  Beatrice  Kirby 1931-1985
                                                  Hartly Rudolph Kirby  1936 – 1973
          Death Rec for Hartley: VIC. Reg No: 28740/ 1973 age 36 yrs
                                                Place: Fitzroy Victoria.

What is most interesting here is the marriage of Laura Murray to Arthur Kirby.

This is a link directly back to Walter and Lila  Murray. 

Did Beatrice and Bert Murray have children:  I have not looked yet.

****    Stanley Walter Murray
Info so far:  Birth: C 1923
               Death: 1972   Place: Balranald, NSW.
               Vic Reg Ref No:  46572/1972
               Parents :William and Alice
***** Alice Edith  aka Edith Murray.
Info so far: Birth: 1928  Balranald, NSW.
Death: Australian Death Index: 1972  Reg No:1334/1972   Dareton, Sydney NSW.
Parents:  William and Alice.   

Marriage:  Marriage Index Record:  Date 1944  Place: Wentworth Ref Rec No: 13217/1944
Spouse:  “Jack”  John Thomas Lawson 1920-1975.

They have 10 children.  8 female and 2male. 
******  Daisy Murray
Info so far:  Birth: 1933
                Place: Leeton, NSW.
                 Death: 22nd June 1988, Balranald, NSW.

*******  Mary Patricia Murray
Info so far: Birth:  ?
                  Death:  C 2006

*******   Edward William Murray
info so far:  Birth date: 1930
                Death Date: 1977   
                 Marriage: 1948
Marriages Search Results  Edward William Murray
And Nancy Mary Anne Kirby
PDF availabilty   ……………………….Unavailable
Registration Number…………………...13536/1948
Groom's Family Name…………………...MURRAY
Groom's Given Name(s)………………….EDWARD WILLIAM
Bride's Family Name(s)………………….KIRBY
Bride's Given Name(s) …………………NANCY MARY ANNE
District  ………………………………...BALRANALD

********  Reginald Murray  1929

 I still have this one to do but thought you might like to see all the above. 

Hope this sorts this family unit out .

Thanks for reading it's a bit long ...sorry. 

Essnell



 

Hi again everyone,

above post is related to wondering if Frank smith attender the Swan hill State school  if there was one from 1922 or so onwards.

also i am checking the list aboe fro Colger children on both Vic anad Nsw websiteds jusst to be ssure of the facts above. 

Essnell.

Hi Murrell,
Thank you for your comment . I think you are right judging how many times it's been read.  it's really been a ssurprise and interesting for me as well. 
I am almost certain I have the mystery person. I just am missing a DNA connection. Paper trail is in parts good but then there are parts that flop all over everything.  It's so frustrating.
there are so many issues with endogamy. Part of the culture of the mystery person.  and every one tells a story as they see it.  Hope you keep following it.   E.

Hi ReadyDale,  Thank you to you as well. Every suggestion helps.  I do have Pro-tools.  Got it as it was necessary to get the clustering done. [Actually got it for my own DNA looking for my own ggt grandparents inn England.]

 It has helped immensely as you say it does.  I am not getting to the bottom of the linkage on the second smallest cluster as to who connects to who.  There are just 7 people in this cluster.  They are all related .   
brother and sister and a cousin and an aunt and a cousin plus and two who might be connected to the aunt.  I just cannot build the trees.
I think a run through ancestry search for each might help as otherwise nothing seems to tell me more.

I have just chased down a side link back to the original gtgtgt parents.  so that is progress and it has two connections. That tells me I am on the right path.  But they are not in the 7x7.

more to this yet. 

AnDd as it DEC 13 here ..Happy Xmas to all.   Essnell

 

Hi Sparratt   Bitzar, 

okay    This is really getting at me  - so much so that I am hardly able to concentrate. 

So yes every time I have to repeat lists and every time I recheck things are changing. 

The main issue is that this family repeatedly used the same names. repeatedly spelt those names differently.     
sometimes adding another name some times using a nickname  etc.   

So I need to stop,  take account of everything and rethink it all    -  once again.     

Apart from that ..  I have to distinguish between Frederick Murray 1903, Frederick Murray 1905 and Francis Frederick Murray 1903/5     All of whom appear in various places.  Sometimes together and sometimes separately. and in different family settings.


Now apart from the above issue.  William Walter Murray was born 1872 and died 1954 .   
He, like most of the indigenous males, had several "wives" and each wife had a string of children,  and these were mostly concurrent , but not always at the same settlement group.
William Walter Murray also had Alice Colger as a wife.  I don't have a marriage record yet, but  I shall soon look for it. 
some time later:   Marriage Date: 1920  Reg No: 9111/1920.  So this was after Lila died. 


As I said previously I have been looking at something that I have not expanded before now. 
I have had a list of children that Alice Colger had with William Walter Murray.  Just names and dates .
According to what is “out there” - Alice was born in 1902. and died in 1975. 
She is supposed to have had these children:

Alice E Murray 1889  … I believe this is incorrect and her mother was maybe Kate Rogers.   

Annie Murray 1923 -2002
Albert Murray 1923 - ?  More on Albert below.
Stanley W Murray 1926 - ?
Alice Edith Lawson Edith Murray  1928 -?
Daisy Murray  1933 -1988
Mary Patricia [Priscilla] Murray 1937- 2006
Walter Murray  ? - 1985
Burt Murray  ??  could be Albert.
Edward Murray    date rules him out  [1903]    so who were his parents?
Reginald Murray  1929 - ?

Note:  Not too sure about the last two. 

Alice also had other spouses
 
 ** Emmanuel Austin Cooper
 Cooper children 

Lorraine Alice Cooper 1947- 1995
Emanuel Albert Cooper 1948-1991
Graham Austin Cooper 1956 – 1991
Kay Patricia Cooper 1958-1959
 
Last Spouse
 Jimmy “Yorky” Smith
 Daughter .. no details. 

So looking through the list, I got as far as Albert Murray
 
He is supposed to have married Beatrice Kirby.
His father is William Walter Murray, Tribal name ‘Goonah’. [ This is the same person as Lila’s husband] 1872-1954
His mother Alice Colger born 1902 Island Aboriginal Settlement, Balranald, Murrumbidgee, Mutthi Mutthi Nation, South-West NSW, Aust.
     She died 29-12-1975  Mooroopna, Goulburn, Bangrang Nation, Victoria.Aust.

[I have her parents if you need them. ]

Now Beatrice Kirby :   1931-1985  see below

Parents are  :  Arthur F.S. Kirby  and Laura Murray 1915
Laura is the daughter of William Walter Murray and LiLa Lily Atkinson. 
   [NSW Reg No: 27041/1915  This is Moulamein  but Specifically ….
                   Speewa Crossing NSW ]
  Laura and Arthur married in 1934. Reg No: 17888/1934.   

They have two children.  Beatrice  Kirby
                                        Hartly Rudolph Kirby  1936 – 1973
Death Rec for Hartley: VIC. Reg No: 28740/ 1973 age 36 yrs  place Fitzroy Victoria.

What is most interesting here is the marriage of Laura Murray to Arthur Kirby.

This is a link directly back to Walter and Lila  Murray. 


Now add to that :    Beatrice Kirby married   
 Albert Murray son of Walter  W Murray and Alice Colger   in 1941
      Reg No: 12836/1941. 

This is a link directly back to Walter and Alice Murray. 
I have not gone past this.   
But these inter line marriages skew the DNA.   

another connection seems to be looming  on the female side there is a Wise family and on this same line a Moore family - both could be connected to the above. 

I now need to re read some of this thread .   

Thanks for reading.
Essnell.