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Messages - Londoner2

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1
Other Countries / Re: INDIA: SHADWELL and INGLIS in Durgapore
« on: Monday 08 April 24 23:29 BST (UK)  »
Hi Karen.
I hope it is OK to list your tree?
I have a dna match with Alicia Reade, who has people in her family tree with the name Syiem.

2
The Common Room / Re: No death certificate GRO or local archives!
« on: Monday 08 April 24 22:50 BST (UK)  »
Thank you all!  He is not the St Luke's one - I have that death cert. And yes, 1841 Rose Cottage, then Forest Cottages in St John Parish. Then he moved to Alpha Villa, London Road, also Hackney.
I have ordered the Hooker death certificate to see if that is he. And Abney Park is a likely cemetery for this family. I will check that out as well.


3
The Common Room / Re: No death certificate GRO or local archives!
« on: Monday 08 April 24 21:50 BST (UK)  »
Joseph Hooper. Born 11 March 1800, The Hamlet, Ratcliff, Stepney, Middlesex. Occ: Clerk, Bank of England.  Probate - Letters of Administration Name   Joseph Hooper
Death Date   11 Jan 1858   Death Place   Middlesex, England
Probate Date   4 Feb 1858   Probate Registry   Principal Registry
'.... late of Alpha Villa, London Road, Clapton in the County of Middlesex   Clerk in the Bank of England  deceased who died 11 January 1858 at Alpha Villa aforesaid were Granted at the Principle Registry to Harriet Hooper of Alpha Villa aforesaid Widow the Relict of the said deceased she having been first sworn. 
A note next to the entry, in handwriting, says that 'Admin of Goods unadministered passed Principle Registry March 1880'.
Another entry for 31st March 1880 - the widow Harriet Hooper having left it unadministered. This time Admin is granted to his son William Henry Hooper, Clerk in the Bank of England, of East Avenue Walthamstow Essex, the son and one of the Next of Kin.  I.e. 22 years later.
This gives the same death date and location - Alpha Villa, on 11 January 1858.


4
The Common Room / No death certificate GRO or local archives!
« on: Monday 08 April 24 21:01 BST (UK)  »
Hi. I have a problem - an ancestor who has a Probate record giving the address and date of his death, but no sign of any death certificate. I have searched GRO, including for different years and misspelling of the surname. I have tried the local archives - they cannot find the death record at all.
I have tried to find coroners' archives, without success (in case he died suddenly). I have not found any burial record either (non-conformist Christian family in Clapton).

Does anyone have any ideas about what might have happened? 
Could there have been a Probate Grant of Administration without a death certificate?
I am absolutely flummoxed.

5
Family History Beginners Board / Re: James Theodore Vautin 1776-1857
« on: Monday 02 May 22 16:02 BST (UK)  »
Quote
I see that he is a clerk by 1841 but that doesn’t make him wealthy
My thought too.
Having a servant doesn't either. Even working class people had servants.
As for being a Gentleman this may apply to anyone above working class who usually had independent means but not always.
As a carpenter he may have regarded himself as upper working class. The Vautins may have been lower middle so not much of a glass ceiling to break through.

He had a career in the Bank of England, moved upwards by the look of it. The Vautin family were certainly not poor, doing OK.  As active and committed non-conformist Christians, they would live and behave modestly, and would look after their finances responsibly.

6
Family History Beginners Board / Re: James Theodore Vautin 1776-1857
« on: Monday 02 May 22 15:37 BST (UK)  »
The Vautin family were respectable, non-conformist Christian, middle class people.  James Theodore Vautin was a non-conformist minister, and maybe his son James was too (not sure about this).  James Theodore Vautin worked at the Bank of England, and was Principle of the Treasury when he retired (not sure what that is).  They are likely to marry other non-conformist Christians, sometimes meeting future spouses at the local Meeting or church they attended. James Vautin jnr. married Hannah Hooper, whose family attended the Queen Street Meeting in Ratcliff, Stepney, Middlesex, England. James Vautin baptised some of the Hooper children.   One of the Hooper family worked as Agent for the Governor of the Bank of England, William Mellish; a brother and nephew had jobs at the Bank of England. The Hooper father, John, had a business as tailor and selling ready-made clothes, and supplying ships with a range of essentials (hammocks, you name it...).  So these families are businessmen, or have solid jobs or careers, and are upstanding members of their community.  They are neither poor nor working class. John Hooper snr's wife was Mary Calder, so she may have been the Mary Hooper who was present at the birth of the Vautin children at Nottingham Place, Stepney, in 1819.


Stepney was outside the City of London walls, and even in 1813 still had green fields, farms and market gardens. A lot of people associated with shipbuilding, provisioning and supplying ships, plus seaman and ships' captains, and so-on, lived near the river at Stepney.  People in a range of income groups lived there, from the poor to the fairly wealthy. The overpopulated, horrific, slums became a problem later in the 19th Century, but these middle class families had moved out to new, greener, suburbs by then (Greenwich over the river, else out towards Walthamstow, Woodford, northwards).  James and Hannah Vautin migrated to Australia.

My grandmother (a Hooper) told my mother that there were Huguenot family members in the past - this may have been the Vautin family.

7
Family History Beginners Board / Re: Richard (Dicky) White
« on: Saturday 14 October 17 18:51 BST (UK)  »
Hi, belatedly.
Hannah Hooper m James Vautin: parents of Hannah Hooper were John Hooper and Mary Calder.
John Hooper would have been born about 1858, could have been anywhere. There are a number of Hooper families in the area, in Wapping, Stepney, Limehouse, Spitalfields, Hackney - just not possible to know if he is of any of them or from elsewhere. First appears, assuming it is the same John Hooper, 1782 - 1784 in Butcher Row, Ratcliffe, Stepney, renting a house at £9 week (so not of the poorest people in the area). 1785 - 1818 he is at Cock Hill, nearby, renting a house at £10 10s.  The rent goes up to £15, so maybe he rented more of the property or it just goes up. He was at 1 Cock Hill, a house and a shop. He was a tailor and slop-seller (ready made clothes). He also rented a house etc at 25 Shadwell Hight Street in 1825, with his son, where he was a tailor and slop-manufacturer. From 1818 the land tax records show John Hooper living at Brooke Street, Ratcliffe, and no longer at Cock Hill. In 1825 he was still a slop-seller, from his grandson's birth record.

On 23rd April 1789 he married Mary Calder, at St Katherine by the Tower.   His home parish was St Dunstans, Stepney, Middlesex, England.  Which covers Ratcliffe.  Witnesses were William Emmerson and Will? Davis. 
Mary Calder was born 26 Nov. Mile End Old Town, Stepney, Middlesex. Her parents were William Calder, a market gardener, and Mary Atkinson.  William Calder and family were in Old Ealing, Brentford, Middlesex (he a gardener - this was a major fruit growing area serving London) before they moved down to Stepney, where he rented land for market gardening.

John Hooper and Mary Calder had six children: Samuel, Hannah, Georgiana, David, John and Joseph. They were non-conformists, so the births and baptisms are not recorded in the Anglican records. They are in the England & Wales Christening Register as well.  Cannot find Mary Calder's death or burial, but John Hooper died on 6 March 1838 at his son John's house at Millwall, Poplar, Middlesex, England.

The children's births -   see Piece 4661-1: Dr Williams' Library Registry, Birth Certificates, 1805-1812, and the England & Wales Christening Registers.

Hannah Hooper: born 26 Sep 1792 in Ratcliffe, Stepney, Middlesex (probably at home at 1 Cock Hill).
Married James Vautin at St Mary, Stratford le Bow, Tower Hamlets, Middlesex, England, on 26 September 1819. Witnesses were John Hooper, Joseph Hooper, James Vautin and Eliza Vautin.

Hannah Hooper/Vautin's aunt, Hannah Calder, married William Emmerson, who was a witness at the marriage of John Hooper and Mary Calder. He was probably the Wm Emmerson who was a captain of a ship, and a widower. He died in 1796, and had not changed his will since before his second marriage, so his daughter inherited.  Hannah Calder/Emmerson ended up living with her brother-in-law John Hooper at Cock Hill.

James Vautin baptised some of the Hooper family children, Hannah Hooper/Vautin's nephews and nieces, at the non-conformist Stepney meeting - I take it this is James Vautin senior?





8
Occupation Interests / Re: What on earth did he sell?
« on: Saturday 14 October 17 15:40 BST (UK)  »
Slops are ready-made clothes, as compared to bespoke, tailor-made.

The origin seems to be:
"Late 14c., "loose outer garment," probably from Middle Dutch slop, of uncertain origin, corresponding to words in Old Norse and perhaps in Old English. Sense extended generally to "clothing, ready-made clothing" (1660s), usually in plural slops. Hence, also, slop-shop "shop where ready-made clothes are sold" (1723)."
Slop shops were supplied by sweated labour, in homes or small workshops, paid the minimum possible. Though it often means ready-made work clothes, it covers all ready-made clothing.  It was lucrative back then, and it is lucrative now. E.g. Primark, and most of the retail fashion industry, and the work clothes industry.

A modern example of a wealthy slop seller:  Consider the multi-millionaire Richard Caring who in the 1970s was about the first UK fashion company to get manufacturing done in Hong Kong etc., having trained the manufacturers to make his designs to a good standard (see Wikipedia entry for Richard Caring).

9
Other Countries / Re: INDIA: SHADWELL and INGLIS in Durgapore
« on: Saturday 04 September 10 00:29 BST (UK)  »
Hi all.

I am uploading a Brockway photo for Knysh, which has not scanned in very well. My mother said that it is probably Mary Ann Brockway, one of Emma Brockway's sisters. If that is correct, she would be sister-in-law to J B Shadwell.

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