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Dear Janey,

The daughter is actually another Matilda, born in Addey Street, Deptford on 23rd May 1898. And also incidentaly whilst checking these records, I noticed that on this birth certificate the mother is stated as Matilda Pratt, formerly Lawrence, but on the sons birth certificate she is down as Matilda Julia Pratt formerly Lawrence. They moved from Deptford down to Sutton at Hone Swanley by the time the son, William Henry was born (11.05.1900), where they spent some years in a workhouse before coming back up to Deptford. There is a baptism record for William Henry in Crockenhill, but I could find no trace of a baptism for Matilda.

Kim

Thank you all for all this information, I am going to print it off tomorrow and read it through thoroughly, and try and unravel it..... will let you know what I think. Thanks again, it is much appreciated

Kim

I have spent months on this particular part of my tree, and I have eliminated most other Matilda Lawrences/Laurences that popped up when looking for mine. The problem is that I cant even eliminate this one because they do both, totally disappear after that 1891 census. No Mathilda Gutrolf/Gutrolg is anywhere, no children were born, no death, no travelling, nothing .... and add to the mix that My Matilda, who I know for sure was my great great grandmother had two children with my GGGrandfather, William Henry Pratt, and her name is quite clear on both their birth certificates, and on workhouse records, and her death in 1922 ........ but no marriage is to be found for them, on the 1911 census, when the entire family were in a workhouse in Dartford, she is stated as Matilda Julia Laurence, then Pratt added .... and "S" in her marital status, then crossed out and the "M" added ...... so I really don't think they married. I think they were a "rough" family, obviously very poor, and lived in the slummiest of "Sutton-AT-Hone" Swanley, and then the really "bad" parts of Deptford when they moved back.  I would so love to crack this, and actually don't think I will ever manage it, so far no stone has been left unturned and I don't think there is any other avenues. My post on here was a desperate one!!

Is there anyone that can possibly help to knock down this enormous brickwall that I have spent 2 years chewing over.

Basically can anyone find out anything more about the above Frederick Gutrolf/Gutrolg

I have a marriage 30th Sept 1883 to the above Matilda Julia Lawrence at Bethnal Green,
His father was George Adam Gutrolf, deceased at time of wedding. Fredericks occ then was baker.

He comes from Germany on one census ~ Ohio, Cleveland on the other (1891)

In 1891 he is living at 41 Griffin Street with Matilda, he is now a gen lab.

And then he disappears ....... no death, no travel, no census records, nothing. Can anyone please tell me anything more about him .......

With many thanks and much appreciation

Kim

Thanks all for the replies, heres what I know now ~ Butt street was  there in 1911, census results show that, but prior to that I think it was called Henrietta street ~ henrietta street is NOT on 1911 census but on earlier ones and Butt street vice versa so there is probably something in the fact that I found out that henrietta street became butt street. What I need to find out now is how long Butt street was still standing. Does that make sense, I have had to read it myself three times but I  think its clear.

Reading Charles booth links of that time describes Henrietta street as being a very poor, smelling, rough area ~ indeed Watergate street, that runs alongside it is full of women with black eyes, shoeless children, filth and indescribable stenches amongst other things. Apparently Henrietta street only consisted of about 7 houses and this does seem to fit in with the size, etc of what became Butt Street.....

And Ray, you are looking in the wrong place, Flagon Row/Bridge Row is near but not actually Butt Street. Butt Street is the tiny little "alley" type road that runs across Church Street and Watergate where the two meet, triangular in shape. I did try to upload a map earlier that shows it clearly, but for some reason I was unable to do so. I will try again
Thanks again

Kim