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Messages - TreeDigger

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1
Kent / Re: Who is George COGGER (ca 1796-1835) from Ulcombe?
« on: Sunday 21 July 24 16:07 BST (UK)  »
Thanks again for thinking along!

As @trish pointed out, George from Headcorn can't be he right guy. Too old, wrong burial date, and his wife dies after Ulcombe George marries Sarah Day. Drat!

I have the sneaking suspicion that, once again, I'm dealing with illegitimacy again. So. Bastards.

In 1802, Sarah Cogger gives birth to an illegitimate child named George in Strood. This doesn't appear to be the same George who marries Harriet Reed in nearby Rochester in 1837, as his father is named as Thomas Cogger and he could be identical to the George baptized in 1815 at Meopham as son of Thomas & Susannah Cogger. However, aside from Mary (1838), George (1839), another George (1841) and Harriet (1844), they do baptize a Sarah (1842). Confusing.

But.. Thomas Cog(g)er marries Susan(nah) Johnson in 1804 in Luddesdown, which happens to be the same place where George & Harriet baptize their kids. So despite the lack of a daughter named Susan(nah) - instead sowing confusion by naming one Sarah - it does appear as if the George who marries Harriet is, indeed, the son of Thomas born 1815.

Which brings us back to George born 1802 to Sarah Cogger in Strood.

It all feels eerily familiar. Could George from Strood have lied about his age and status as widower when he married Sarah Day in 1828 in Ulcombe to conceal his illegitimacy? Well, I know of two men who left the UK as father and (bastard) son and stepped onto New Zealand soil as brothers, so nothing is impossible.

In what little time I had this weekend to do some digging I couldn't positively identify a George born 1802 in Strood or even Kent anywhere in the 1841 census, but I'll admit to having just glanced through them. Still.. it does feel like this could be the right guy (but I'll refrain from doing a happy dance this time).

Oh, and the reason behind this quest is that I have over 10 DNA matches with folks with an indigenous background from the White Earth reservation in Minnesota. Having spent weeks linking them to several families there, they all turned out to be descendants of George Cogger & Sarah Day. Two closer cousins/matches of mine seem to indicate the link goes via my Appleton ancestors in Kent. And Sarah Day's line is basically ruled out.

So.. George Cogger. Who is he?! 

TD

2
Kent / Re: Who is George COGGER (ca 1796-1835) from Ulcombe?
« on: Friday 19 July 24 19:03 BST (UK)  »
Thanks for the answers, people, much appreciated!

@bearkat - You're on to something!

The bans between Jane Cogger & William Gaskin are published in 1824 in.. Ulcombe! The only conclusion is that George's age at death is way off. Jane is baptized 1806 in Headcorn as the daughter of George & Martha Cogger. So you may have pointed to wife #1 as well!

No time to dig deeper now but this seems like an excellent lead! * happy dance*

3
Kent / Who is George COGGER (ca 1796-1835) from Ulcombe?
« on: Wednesday 10 July 24 16:57 BST (UK)  »
Hi all,

Throwing out a quick request for help amidst the madness that is now my life and has caused my own problem solving skills to glitch (also: no time!).

George COGGER, bur. 26 May 1835 aged 39 at Ulcombe, Kent
Married 28 March 1828 Thurnham to Sarah DAY (1798-1857; her 1st mar. 1817 Chatham to George  Champion, her 3rd 1843 Ulcombe to Robert Henry Butler).

George is a widower!

Children born of Cogger/Day union:
Charles 1828, William 1830, John 1831, Elizabeth 1833, Ellen 1835.
(Sarah has an illegitimate son Alfred born 1839)

I have all the details on both Sarah and all the children, but I can't seem to find anything on George's origins and his first marriage. Help?!

TD

4
Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing / Re: Shared 18% DNA
« on: Friday 22 March 24 06:04 GMT (UK)  »
With any DNA match you need to find what is called the Most Recent Common Ancestor, or MRCA, from whom you and your match have inherited the bit of DNA you have in common. It could be that bit of DNA is larger in your or the match's case, but it's the overlap that counts.

In the case of matching centimorgans (cM) of 20cM or less, this means you'll have to build your tree and that of the match quite a ways back, including all of the branches. The matching DNA could've come from your paternal grandfather's great-grandmother on his maternal side, or your great-grandmother's great-grandfather on her paternal side. There are many options. It's also possible the MRCA is even further back, or closer.

In any case, it means you have to do some research  ;)

5
Thank you so much - that is clearer to me. [...] Is it Ok to invite you to View or collaborate on my results? I have Access to others for viewing only - one in this line.

I'll gladly help, but things will be a bit slow due to Real Life demanding my attention (elderly parents, one of whom fell and fractured a hip & shoulder). Will look up your tree and expand the one I made. I'm both on Ancestry and MH, so that shouldn't be a problem ;) 

6
Kent / Appleton family from Kent; a quagmire.
« on: Thursday 21 March 24 06:29 GMT (UK)  »
My 3x great-grandmother Mary Ann Appleton's origins are still partly shrouded in mystery.

Established facts..

Married
28 Sep 1830 at Margate to John Foster W(h)ales
Children
John Henley bap 11 Sep 1831, Margate
Edward bap 17 Mar 1833, Margate
William Brown bap 30 Nov 1834, Margate
George 29 May 1836, Margate
Eliza Ann bap 14 Oct 1838, Margate
Emma bap 05 Apr 1840, Margate
Harriott born ca. 1842, Margate
Stephen bap 11 Feb 1844, Margate
Mary born ca. 1846, Margate
Joeph born ca.1848, Margate

The 1841 census finds the family (transcribed as 'Dales') living at Princess Crescent in Margate, with Mary Ann aged 30. This means her birth is somewhere between 1806-1811. Coupled with her eldest son named John Henley, her parents, without much doubt, can be identified as John Appleton & Ann Henley, married 24 Aug 1809 at Canterbury, where Mary Ann is baptized on 12 Dec 1809, a scant 4 months after the marriage.

And that's where, as far as I'm concerned, the Appleton lineage stops.

Ann Henley & daughter Elizabeth Appleton and grandson Edward Wales can be found in the 1841 & 1851 Margate census respectively. John Appleton has died by then, and most often is identified as the John Appleton that was buried aged 49 on 24 Feb 1833 at St Nicholas-at-Wade, residence Sarre. He's then additionally often identified as the son of James Appleton & Mary Ellender.

The problem I have is that I can't seem to find evidence for any of that. John is either said to be baptized in 1778 - which doesn't correspond with the quite specific age of 49 at his burial - or is 'stuffed in' between the other children of the couple.

So if anybody has proof of (t)his parentage..

7
Thank you, TreeDigger.  I think I understand but if you could kindly share your caffeine, please, it might help.  Of course, I could try going to sleep at a normal time rather than popping in here at all hours of the night.  ;D.

I'll give you some caffeine if you say "Hi!" for me to SoCal  8)

The combo IBD & IBS happens when..

*you and a match have a bit of identical DNA that's shared by a whole geographical group (IBS) in the same spot, while your parent has it in a different spot
*you and your parent have a bit of DNA inherited from an ancestor (IBD) and your mutual match also has DNA inherited from that same ancestor
*the inherited (IBD) DNA happens to be in the same region as the IBS DNA you and a match also share.

I've included an image trying to further explain it.

8
My thoughts were that at some time one of the 'nobles' had fathered an illegitimate child, but then how come they are connected to both sides when my maternal and paternal families lived in different counties?

Could be that, yes, it's just sheer coincidence.

But people tended to move around far more than previously thought. A bastard son, for instance, could be married off to a younger daughter from a minor family branch and then the pair shipped off to a small hold elsewhere in the country; landholding politics were very important back then.

However, chances of finding proof are very slim. My discovery (despite having experience in Medieval research) was really the result of being extremely lucky.

(multiple edits = lack of caffeine)

9
Excluding an error in the numbers (and given the fact that the cM are so minor), I don’t remember the answer - is it possible for a child to have more cM than a parent, please?

The answer is "yes".

It's the difference between IBD (Identical By Descent, sharing a theoretically traceable common ancestor within the past centuries) and IBS (Identical By State, sharing cultural/ethnic/geographical roots with a common ancestor in a murky past).

It happens that an IBS segment (which match & child happen to have in the same location) gets tacked on to a IBD segment.

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