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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: The [Church of Ireland] Doherty's of Londonderry
« on: Sunday 18 February 18 21:37 GMT (UK) »
Yep, that's them. Many thanks. I'd searched as Docherty but wouldn't have thought of trying Daugherty.
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Derry (Londonderry) / The [Church of Ireland] Doherty's of Londonderry
« on: Sunday 18 February 18 19:40 GMT (UK) »
Doherty was predominantly a catholic surname but I'm trying to track down the Church of Ireland Dohertys who feature in the 1901 census and then disappear in 1911. Mother, Sarah was born circa 1859. In 1901 she was recently widowed by the death of husband, William. Most of her children still lived with her at 10 Kennedy Street. This included my gt grandmother, Mary, who would marry John Love in 1904. Her siblings in 1901 were 21 yr old William, Sarah [20], James [19], Richard [18], Cassie [15], John [13], Robert [10], Susan [4], Eveline [3] and Samuel [1]. Mary is easy to find in 1911 but the rest of the family aren't, suggesting possible emigration. I've not found them in Britain or on passenger lists. Only clue so far is the WWI army diaries. Mary's husband, John was killed in November 1916 and the report of his death stated that he died shortly after parting company from his brother in law, Sgt Doherty. It's not known which of his brother's in law this was as it could have been any of four. Sarah Doherty's eldest son in the 1901 census, William was a stoker. There is a Stoker William Doherty on the Londonderry war memorial, married to Nellie Doherty of Patrick Street but I don't know if this is the same person. With six children aged 11-15 I thought it would have been relatively straight forward to find this family in 1911 but have struggled. Any information anyone has that might help is much appreciated.
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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Robert Sherrard 1862-1952
« on: Thursday 18 February 16 20:14 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for posting. Mina's mum was called Elizabeth Torrens, according to her marriage record to Robert Sherrard at Second Glendermott Presb on Sep 17th 1885. There is a family lore that Elizabeth's daughter, Rebecca Taylor Sherrard was so named to curry favour with someone named Taylor but it didn't amount to anything. Whether that's true or not is lost to history now.
It's a little unusual that five of Robert and Elizabeth's adult children are buried with them in Glendermott Cemetary.
It's a little unusual that five of Robert and Elizabeth's adult children are buried with them in Glendermott Cemetary.
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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Robert Sherrard 1862-1952
« on: Tuesday 16 February 16 18:53 GMT (UK) »
Yes, Mina was my great aunt and the last of the Sherrard girls when she passed away aged 106. Unfortunately Mina wasn't particularly interested in talking about her family history. She had a sister with polio and a brother that was downes syndrome and one of her sisters was an unmarried mother. I suspect she viewed all of these things to be stigmas that should remain in the past and not spoken of.
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Nottinghamshire / Re: Sidney Robert Palmer (Bly)
« on: Tuesday 17 March 15 22:39 GMT (UK) »
Fortunately the Football League have always kept detailed records of every player that has ever taken part in a Football League game. Sadly I'm sorry to say that there are no players of the names Sidney or Robert Palmer or Sidney or Robert Bly in the records. There was both a Bill Palmer and Bill Blythe playing professionally in 1911 but I don't think either is the person you are looking for. Bill Palmer did play in Nottingham around the time of the 1911 census but he was a Yorkshireman who played for a great many clubs over a long career either side of World War One. I don't believe that he is Sidney Robert Palmer but just in case, there is a wiki page for this player at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Palmer :Bill Blythe meanwhile was a Scotsman and he never played in the East Midlands.
It's possible that Sidney was on the books of a club but never managed to make a first team appearance or he may have been playing for a club outside the Football League. Is it possible that Sidney would have been a man of independent means? If so, rather than listing himself as a gentleman as those who did not need to work for a living would record themselves, he instead listed himself as a Footballer and was playing in the amatuer game. I mention this only because even some of the top professionals of the time would not be listed in the census as Footballers. The maximum wage a player could earn in 1911 was just £6 a week. Very good at the time but only the very best players earned it. To entice players to their clubs, directors would offer them jobs in their businesses outside the game to supplement their wages [top players wouldn't actually do the job but would collect the wage] Further down the Footballing ladder, players really did need a supplementary income. So it meant most Footballers would actually have listed themselves by another occupation in the census.
It's possible that Sidney was on the books of a club but never managed to make a first team appearance or he may have been playing for a club outside the Football League. Is it possible that Sidney would have been a man of independent means? If so, rather than listing himself as a gentleman as those who did not need to work for a living would record themselves, he instead listed himself as a Footballer and was playing in the amatuer game. I mention this only because even some of the top professionals of the time would not be listed in the census as Footballers. The maximum wage a player could earn in 1911 was just £6 a week. Very good at the time but only the very best players earned it. To entice players to their clubs, directors would offer them jobs in their businesses outside the game to supplement their wages [top players wouldn't actually do the job but would collect the wage] Further down the Footballing ladder, players really did need a supplementary income. So it meant most Footballers would actually have listed themselves by another occupation in the census.
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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Robert Sherrard married Mary Buchanan
« on: Saturday 14 March 15 11:05 GMT (UK) »
Much like the Buchanans of Victoria, the Sherrards who gradually levitated into Londonderry city would not have tolerated marriage to a Roman Catholic. This attitude would have begun in the 1840s and gradually become more ingrained as the various political actions of the next hundred years divided catholics and protestants on political lines. over the 130 years from the 1840s to the 1970s First you've got the famine, which doesn't affect majority protestant Ulster as badly as it does majority catholic Leinster, Munster and Connaught. Thats followed by the birth of the land league and the Irish parliamentary party where again it's mostly rural catholics who feel more affected by unfair rents. The Orange order is born and you now have working class protestants coming to the defence of middle class protestant landlords, Captain Boycott being the most famous when his name became the term for being boycotted. So in the space of a generation you've got rural protestants and catholics who lived side by side in harmony, now tolerating each other but holding resentments under the surface that has caused a split in the community. It then goes on to the push for home rule starting in the 1880s, home rule riots in the 1890s, the arming of Ulstermen to resist home rule in 1912, the rising of 1916, the partition of Ireland and then fifty years of protestant paranoia in governing Northern Ireland that sparks the violence of the 1970s and '80s. Even today you can find that people of the pre 1968 generation, who appear tolerant on the surface, still carry old resentments and prejudices when you scratch the surface. The '60s and '70s was something of a wake up call for most that such bitterness couldn't continue though. I think the whole first world experienced something of a wake up call in terms of racial and religious tolerance generally from the 1980s and beyond in which acceptance of inter religious marriage in Northern Ireland was just one part.
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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Robert Sherrard married Mary Buchanan
« on: Friday 13 March 15 20:20 GMT (UK) »
the social history of a time and place can often offer a glimpse of who people were and why they took the steps they did in life. On the Katherine and Catherine debate, I think it does just come down to Katherine being spelling that was going out of fashion in faour of catherine more so than a religous thing. It was only with the proper keeping of records in the late 18th century that these things started becoming more important to people. It's a point to note that the first half of the nineteenth cenrtury was a time when a great many still couldn't read or write so spelling wasn't necessarily a big deal for them.
Religion too is a less clear thing in the first half of the century as Presbyterians were regarded by those in the established church as no better than Catholics, for whom they had little regard. There wasn't necessarily open hatred as such but those in the established church would have considered themselves, privately at least, as being socially better than Presbyterians and Catholics. That said, marriage to and between Protestants and Catholics wasn't as uncommon rurally as many would think.
Marriage itself prior to the 1840s wasn't as big a deal as it was later in the century. for rural folk, living in small tight knit communities where families knew each other going back a century or two, marriage was more conceptual than religious. Often it was a case where, as long as the families and the communities regarded them as married then that was good enough. Jumping the broomstick so to speak. Starting in the 1830s and moving into the Victorian age, Ministers applied soft pressure on their parishoners who were also employers that it was their moral duty to ensure their employees were married in the eyes of god and not living in sin. It became common for married men to earn more than those that weren't so men started marrying. It was as true then as it is now that most simple folk were god fearing but not especially religious. In truth though, children born out of wedlock for a community like Slaughtmanus wouldn't have been a big deal as long as their parents lived as man and wife. One actual upshot of the pressure to marry was the growth of arranged marriage. It wasn't rife but equally not uncommon for a young woman to attract the attention of a middle aged farmer in need of a wife. A labourer could find his circumstances improved by agreeing to marry the poor girl off to a man over twice her age. Such practices happened in rural Ireland right up until the early 1950s, indeed my wife has an aunt who found herself in such a position when just a girl of 17 in the late 1940s.
That makes it all the more remarkable for Catherine to have left her husband. Then again, with limited knowledge of emigrant history, I've always felt that Ulster-Scots who went abroad took their religion but were hoping to get away from the social restrictions of their homeland as much chasing the dreams of better lives in Australia, USA, South Africa etc.
I think it's telling that the first thing the Buchanans do on arrival in Australia is leave Melbourne. Fair enough, there was a gold rush and the newspapers in Ireland virtually tell people that the streets of Melbourne are paved with gold. Folk from Belfast and Londonderry would still probably have been more likely to stay in Melbourne and tried to seek their fortune in a more built up environment. The Buchanans however came from a place so small and rural that it wasn't even, and still isn't on the map. There were a good five miles away from the nearest village in Claudy.
I'm probably telling you what you already know but the Genghis Khan sailing of 1853 was a very famous one and perhaps the worst sailing any emigrant ship ever encountered without actually floundering.
Religion too is a less clear thing in the first half of the century as Presbyterians were regarded by those in the established church as no better than Catholics, for whom they had little regard. There wasn't necessarily open hatred as such but those in the established church would have considered themselves, privately at least, as being socially better than Presbyterians and Catholics. That said, marriage to and between Protestants and Catholics wasn't as uncommon rurally as many would think.
Marriage itself prior to the 1840s wasn't as big a deal as it was later in the century. for rural folk, living in small tight knit communities where families knew each other going back a century or two, marriage was more conceptual than religious. Often it was a case where, as long as the families and the communities regarded them as married then that was good enough. Jumping the broomstick so to speak. Starting in the 1830s and moving into the Victorian age, Ministers applied soft pressure on their parishoners who were also employers that it was their moral duty to ensure their employees were married in the eyes of god and not living in sin. It became common for married men to earn more than those that weren't so men started marrying. It was as true then as it is now that most simple folk were god fearing but not especially religious. In truth though, children born out of wedlock for a community like Slaughtmanus wouldn't have been a big deal as long as their parents lived as man and wife. One actual upshot of the pressure to marry was the growth of arranged marriage. It wasn't rife but equally not uncommon for a young woman to attract the attention of a middle aged farmer in need of a wife. A labourer could find his circumstances improved by agreeing to marry the poor girl off to a man over twice her age. Such practices happened in rural Ireland right up until the early 1950s, indeed my wife has an aunt who found herself in such a position when just a girl of 17 in the late 1940s.
That makes it all the more remarkable for Catherine to have left her husband. Then again, with limited knowledge of emigrant history, I've always felt that Ulster-Scots who went abroad took their religion but were hoping to get away from the social restrictions of their homeland as much chasing the dreams of better lives in Australia, USA, South Africa etc.
I think it's telling that the first thing the Buchanans do on arrival in Australia is leave Melbourne. Fair enough, there was a gold rush and the newspapers in Ireland virtually tell people that the streets of Melbourne are paved with gold. Folk from Belfast and Londonderry would still probably have been more likely to stay in Melbourne and tried to seek their fortune in a more built up environment. The Buchanans however came from a place so small and rural that it wasn't even, and still isn't on the map. There were a good five miles away from the nearest village in Claudy.
I'm probably telling you what you already know but the Genghis Khan sailing of 1853 was a very famous one and perhaps the worst sailing any emigrant ship ever encountered without actually floundering.
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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Robert Sherrard married Mary Buchanan
« on: Wednesday 11 March 15 21:10 GMT (UK) »-Birth Catherine Kane (Cairns) 4 March 1823, baptised 10 March 1823, Parish/District Glendermott (Church of Ireland, Father James Kane, mother Margaret McShane
-Marriage James Buchanan, Slaghtmanus to Catherine Kane, Listress, on 31 October 1851. Father of James given as James Buchanan, Weaver. Father of Catherine, given as Michael. James gives his profession as Smith (Blacksmith)
Hi Christine. I'm curious about this info as Catherine's birth record points to James Kane but her marriage record points to Michael Kane? I'm also curious that if both records state her name was Kane, where the Cairns surname comes in? Also James' father here is recorded as James and not William.
Sorry to sound a bit like a cross examiner but while researching the Sherrard family I came across lots of Slaughtmanus 19th century family who all had the same names and I sometimes linked on the basis of assumptions that I later would find to be wrong when checking documentary evidence. Years later it has led me to always double check any information that I'm not certain about.
And don't worry about any roots chat etiquette about posting regarding the Buchanans here. This thread after all is as much about Mary's family as Robert Sherrards.
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Derry (Londonderry) / Re: Robert Sherrard married Mary Buchanan
« on: Monday 09 March 15 22:54 GMT (UK) »
I believe I confused Jane Sherrard [Buchanan] with a Mary Jane Sherrard who was also married to a farmer named Robert Sherrard and was of a similar age when both were recorded living in the same area in the 1901 census. Indeed, your post pointed me in the right direction to see their two grand children. The elder members of my family were aware of the Donnell’s but did not recall the two grand children recorded in the census.
The Landaire mentioned as the birth of William Buchanan I would have to agree is probably Londonderry. Landaire I suspect is a phonetic of the loose pronunciation of the time.
I’m afraid I suspect that Jane's daughter Mary-Jane did not marry James Cairns however. Both Robert Sherrard and his brother, Matthew had a son and a daughter named Robert and Mary-Jane. Mary-Jane did indeed marry James Cairns at Carlisle Road Church on May 26th 1891. The father on the certificate however is Matthew, not Robert, which confirms that it was Mary-Jane of 1865’s cousin. Alas I have a hunch that Mary-Jane of 1865 was one of the three children Robert states was dead in the 1911 census. Mary-Jane of 1865’s brother was however the Robert who married Elizabeth Torrens, although I suspect his cousin Mary-Jane lived with her own brother Robert [all very confusing]. Robert and Elizabeth were my great grandparents. Robert lived into his 90s and my father was a child when a huge Sherrard family reunion was held in 1951 to celebrate his birthday. There was a large family photo taken at the time which was sadly was mislaid only four or five years ago.
Unfortunately I haven’t taken the Buchanans any further back than Jane’s father, William. Indeed I did not know her mother’s name until your post.
Curious that the Donnells appear in the 1911 census to confirm that their two eldest children went to live with their grand parents while the next five stay with them. They are nowhere to be found in the 1901 census despite all the children being apparently born in County Derry.
While the info from Aghadowey is very good, I can advise that the Robert Sherrard whose death he reports in 1930 is not the same man as the associated 1911 census link. The man in the 1911 link is my gt grandfather who, mentioned previously died in 1952 and whose birthday in 1951 was attended by my father.
There’s lots of other links that I haven’t had a chance to look at yet. I’m Robert Sherrard and Jane Buchanan’s great great grandson, via the Robert Sherrard shown in that 1911 census link, which also shows my grandmother, Rebecca Sherrard. The youngest girl Wilhelmina {Mina} my great aunt, was the second oldest woman in Ireland when she passed away in December. I’d be keen to see photos of my gt gt grandmother’s brothers and also to see if the communication between the families in the USA and Australia included any contact or mention of the family back in Ireland/Northern Ireland.
The Landaire mentioned as the birth of William Buchanan I would have to agree is probably Londonderry. Landaire I suspect is a phonetic of the loose pronunciation of the time.
I’m afraid I suspect that Jane's daughter Mary-Jane did not marry James Cairns however. Both Robert Sherrard and his brother, Matthew had a son and a daughter named Robert and Mary-Jane. Mary-Jane did indeed marry James Cairns at Carlisle Road Church on May 26th 1891. The father on the certificate however is Matthew, not Robert, which confirms that it was Mary-Jane of 1865’s cousin. Alas I have a hunch that Mary-Jane of 1865 was one of the three children Robert states was dead in the 1911 census. Mary-Jane of 1865’s brother was however the Robert who married Elizabeth Torrens, although I suspect his cousin Mary-Jane lived with her own brother Robert [all very confusing]. Robert and Elizabeth were my great grandparents. Robert lived into his 90s and my father was a child when a huge Sherrard family reunion was held in 1951 to celebrate his birthday. There was a large family photo taken at the time which was sadly was mislaid only four or five years ago.
Unfortunately I haven’t taken the Buchanans any further back than Jane’s father, William. Indeed I did not know her mother’s name until your post.
Curious that the Donnells appear in the 1911 census to confirm that their two eldest children went to live with their grand parents while the next five stay with them. They are nowhere to be found in the 1901 census despite all the children being apparently born in County Derry.
While the info from Aghadowey is very good, I can advise that the Robert Sherrard whose death he reports in 1930 is not the same man as the associated 1911 census link. The man in the 1911 link is my gt grandfather who, mentioned previously died in 1952 and whose birthday in 1951 was attended by my father.
There’s lots of other links that I haven’t had a chance to look at yet. I’m Robert Sherrard and Jane Buchanan’s great great grandson, via the Robert Sherrard shown in that 1911 census link, which also shows my grandmother, Rebecca Sherrard. The youngest girl Wilhelmina {Mina} my great aunt, was the second oldest woman in Ireland when she passed away in December. I’d be keen to see photos of my gt gt grandmother’s brothers and also to see if the communication between the families in the USA and Australia included any contact or mention of the family back in Ireland/Northern Ireland.