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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: Ratty on Sunday 23 October 05 16:29 BST (UK)
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Anyone with any tips on where to look for information about what happened to my gr gr gr granduncle Thomas Albone? He was convicted of attempting to poach and assault in March 1836. On the 13th May 1836 he was sent to the prison hulk Justitia and then in July he was transported aboard the Lady Nugent to Tasmania. I am led to believe that at some time after that he married and that there was a family. This is where I hit my problem......where do I go from here? Any suggestions, help gratefully received.
Donna
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The Tasmanian archives contain much information about convicts (and free settlers) in Tas.
http://www.archives.tas.gov.au/
If you cannot find any information in their online data, they do have a research service available. I could not find any detail of your man doing a quick search of the online indexes.
On the AVRI (covers NSW Vic Tas and WA) to late 1800s - there is only one record for an ALBONE - Elizabeth, born in NSW 1861, father William. There was nothing for ALLBONE, but many records for ALBON, although not in Tasmania.
Trish
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You might be lucky and find something on this site too:
http://www.genseek.net/constas.htm
I have found a few things on genseek, relating to a free settler of mine.
Prue
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You may be interested in this site, it is for convicts to Tasmania
http://rootsweb.com/~austashs
Cazay
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Hi All
Thanks for the suggestions, unfortunately I didn't come up with anything, but never mind I'll just have to keep looking.
Donna
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Hi Ratty
Could this be your Thomas.
Thomas ALBON (born: bedfordshire) married Pheobe JUDD nee MANSFIELD (born Essex) Victoria 1868 ref: 896.
Thomas ALBON died 1872 aged 56 parents: Unknown Ref: 9245
Cheers
Genni
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Hello Genni
Yes could very well be. Thomas was born around 1812 so with that death date should have been around 60, but the age is not that far out so I reckon it's a definate possibility.
Thanks alot
Donna
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Genni
I was wondering if I could be cheeky and ask where you found the info and if there is any indication of a child?
Donna
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Donna
The information is from the Victorian Indexes.
You can download the image online ($17.50 AUS)
http://online.justice.vic.gov.au/CA256C7100199CBE/page/Births+Deaths+and+Marriages+Online+Shop-Births+Deaths+and+Marriages+Online+Shop?OpenDocument&1=0-Births+Deaths+and+Marriages+Online+Shop~&2=0-Births+Deaths+and+Marriages+Online+Shop~&3=~#search
Just go to the download page.
George (34) & Phoebe JUDD (26) and children Joseph (4) & Sarah Ann (infant) arrived in Victoria on the 'Royal George' November 1849.
Both Joseph and Sarah Ann marry under the surname ABLON.
2 children:-
John Thomas born 1860 Footscray Ref: 647 died 3weeks Ref: 396
Alfred William born 1863 Footscray Ref: 2101 died 4monthd Ref: 4140
Emma ALBON born Footscray married in 1873 to John STEWART Ref: 2794. Unfortunately her birth is before registration.
She gives her parents as Thomas ALBON & Phoebe Unknown when she dies in 1914 (aged 62) Footscray Ref: 5584
Alfred william's birth should list all the children born to Thomas & Phoebe.
Cheers
Genni
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Thanks Genni
That's great....I'll get on to it.
Donna
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Hi Genni
Just wanted to say that I downloaded a copy of the marriage certificate of Thomas and Phebe this morning and it's definitely the right Thomas....birthplace and parents match perfectly.
Thanks for the link you gave me.......now I just need to try and follow any descendent's.
Donna
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Glad I could help Donna. when I get a chance I'll see if I can find out when he arrived in Victoria.
Let me know if you want any info on Emma's children.
Cheers
Genni
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Genni
Any info you have or come across for Emma's children would be great and much appreciated.
Donna
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Hi donna
John Stewart & Emma Albon's children:-
All registered Footscray
Thomas Albon Stewart born 1874 (ref: 15928) died 1877 (Ref: 4849) aged 2
John Thomas Stewart born 1884 (ref: 9566) died 1886 (ref: 5434) aged 23mth
Rroy McGregor Fairbairn born 1891 (ref: 3311) married Janet Gibson McGregor 1917 (ref: 8139)
Alphtruda Kathle born 1893 (ref: 3940)
Emmalee Myrees H born 1893 (ref: 3941)
Cheers
Genni
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Hi Donna,
It will be a giggling pleasure to add Emma's children names to the summary (PM yesterday).
Either she became a little eccentric in her choices of names or someone couldn't spell very well.
The Alpha.... is very unusual!!!
Sue
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Hi Donna,
Thomas and family
One wonders whether Thomas actually had any surviving descendants.
Genni listed two (pre-nuptial - 1860 and 1863) children with Phoebe (MANSFIELD) JUDD but both died in infancy.
Did Thomas's death certificate say how long he had been in Victoria? Can the death of George JUDD be found? Any records of births in Vic to George and Phoebe?
One wonders whether Emma ALBON (b ca 1852) really was a child of Thomas ALBON and Phoebe MANSFIELD or did she just (and perhaps other children of George and Phoebe) adopt the ALBON name like Joseph and Sarah - presumably we think that Joseph and Sarah are children of George JUDD and Phoebe MANSFIELD (as they arrived with them in 1849) and that both subsequently adopted the name ALBON.
Of course, Thomas may have married more than once and might even have had descendants before he took up with Phoebe.
I have researched a convict who married a widowed ancestor of my children (she was past child-bearing age by then). I found that the convict had been married and had a child in England before he was convicted and sentenced and transported to Tasmania in 1834 (descendants of that child had always assumed that he was the convict's only child). Then, in Tasmania, he married (1847) and probably had at least one child (fate unknown). In 1853 he married again and had a child who survived and had descendants. He moved to Victoria with this wife and the child. The wife died in 1859 and he married yet again (in Victoria) in 1860 and had 12(!) more children. That wife died in 1888 and after less than a year he married my children's ancestor - the marriage was not a success, they parted, and he died in 1891.
Tasmanian Archives
As Trish said, the Tasmanian Archives has a Research Service. It would add to the available information if you could get (if you have not already done so) all the information which is held by the Tas Archives re Thomas.
The Archives site says the following:
"Convicts
The records of the Convict Department and the administration of the Convict System are a valuable source of genealogical information. More than 74,000 convicts were transported to Tasmania between 1803 and 1853. Conduct registers of male and female convicts arriving in the period of the Assignment System 1803 - 1843 provide much information. [CON31 and CON40]. Until June 1840 convicts were either assigned to settlers or sent to work on public works but in the early 1840s the Assignment System was replaced with the Probation System. On arrival convicts were placed into gangs to work and the length of time in the gang depended on the length of their original sentence. There are similar but more detailed conduct records for this period [CON33 and CON41]. The information contained in the conduct records can be supplemented by using other series of records such as indents, descriptions and muster rolls. The Convict Department in Tasmania did not retain butts of indulgences such as Tickets of Leave and Conditional Pardons but simply noted the fact that the indulgence had been granted on the conduct record."
Brief Guide No 13 lists Records most frequently used for personal information about convicts. It is at:
http://www.blaxland.com/ozships/events/12/1142.htm
Guide No 20 is also interesting. It is at:
http://www.archives.tas.gov.au/guides&Info/guide020.htm
Lady Nugent
From:
http://www.blaxland.com/ozships/events/12/1142.htm
the 'Lady Nugent', a convict vessel with master Jas Fawcett, left Sheerness 11th July 1836 and arrived Hobart Town 12th Nov 1836.
Victorian Death Index, 1921-1985
Janet Gibson (MCGREGOR) STEWART - mentioned by Genni - died aged 42 in 1936 at East Malvern, parents Mcgregor Jno and Harriet Annie Archer GIBSON, Ref 2648
There are the following deaths with father Joseph ALBON (and mother Harriet YOUNG).
*ALBON Harold Leslie, father Joseph, mother Harriett YOUNG, died age 67 in 1952 at Wggi, Ref 17772
*ALBON Albert Victor, father Joseph, mother Harriett YOUNG, died age 73 in 1956 at Rich, Ref 6643
*DUNBABIN Susan Ethel, father Albon Joseph, mother Harriet YOUNG, died age 73 in 1956 at Koru, Ref 18852
*ALBON Thomas Edgar You, father Joseph, mother Harriet YOUNG, died age 84 in 1962 at Elst Ref 19868
*ALBON John Stewart, father Joseph Judd, mother Harriet YOUNG, died age 78 in 1967 at Fran, Ref 27952
And a child of Harold Leslie:
*ALBON Malcolm, father Albon Harold Leslie, mother Agnes Craig JEFFREY, died age 20 in 1935 at Wthaggi, Ref 17277
And children of John Stewart:
*ALBON Thos Ronald, father Albon Jno Stewart, mother Eliz HENDERSON, died age 19 in 1947 at Pran, Ref 11869
*GRAY Joyce Isabel, father Albon John, mother Elizabeth HENDERSON, died age 45 in 1963 at Trar, Ref 9700
And Joyce Isabel's sons:
*GRAY Theodore Walter, father Gray Reginald David, mother Joyce Isobell ALBON, died - no age give - in 1936 at Pakenham, Ref 15958
*GRAY John David, father Reginald Dav, mother Joyce Isabel ALBON, died age 21 in 1959 at Trar, Ref 26512
And her husband:
*GRAY Reginald David, father David, mother Maude BROWN, died age 71 in 1969 at Bool, Ref 16328
JAP
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Hi Jap and all,
Yes. We also wonder why the change of name for George Judd. He was married to Phoebe Mansefield as Joshua Judd in quarter Dec 1841 (Freebmd). When they arrived on the Royal George,with 2 of his ? 4 ? children he was George. (Assisted immigrant1849, per gennig).
Should search death under both first names. Finding death would at least mark the beginning of Phoebe's widowhood/availability for re-marriage.
There is an entry for the Lady Nugent arriving in Hobart 12/11/1836. Thomas Albon is listed on board with 286 convicts. The ship departed London 12/7/1836 (Sorry I can't quite re-locate my source on that).
Which ties in with Donna's conviction information.
1863 Sands McDougal shows Thomas Albon as a brickmaker - Moreland & Parker Streets, Footscray, Melbourne.
This goes on for a few years, changing to Storekeeper in same street.
A death entry we have established for Thomas Albon ( 1872 aged 56 b. Bedfordshire ) may explain why in 1874 Phoebe is recorded the storekeeper.
And this continues for some years. There are also records of a Mrs Matthew Albon living in the same area from about 1879
All of this is only of interest and does not offer any real evidence of Thomas having children in Aust. .
Also of interest, the possible grandchildren of Joseph and Harriet appear on the www.ww2roll.gov.au site. Some of the names are very familiar, including next of kin. Thanks Sue
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Hi Everyone
Well I miss one day of checking my messages and haven't you all been busy!
Yes I agree Sue those names are somewhat unusual! It's exactly as they appear on the birth certificate though...seems as if they were twins with Alphtruda being fractionally older than Emmalee.
Jap, Thomas's death certificate dated 27 December 1872 says that he had been in Victoria 25 years which we know is not strictly accurate, but then it also says that he married Phoebe Mansfield 25 years earlier in Essex, England!!!! Which as I now have a copy of their marriage certificate which states that...... Thomas Albon a bachelor (not quite sure what his wife in England would have to say!) married Phoebe Judd a widow on February 19th 1868 in Victoria ...... would seem to also be stretching the truth a little.
Also to add to the confusion on Alfred William's birth certificate (Thomas and Phoebe's last child) it gives as the other children of both Thomas and Phobe......Mary - deceased, Joseph 18yrs, Sarah Ann 14 yrs, Eliza - deceased, David - deceased, Emma 8 yrs, John Thomas deceased.
Joseph, Sarah Ann and Emma all name children after Thomas and all give Thomas as there father although it is obvious that it is not actually the case.
I have contacted the Tasmanian Archives and they are goin to look out all records they can find of Thomas for me. I don't know if that will help or just add to the questions!!!
Donna
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Hi Donna,
So we know all children pre-date the wedding - 1868 ( this pre-dating means nothing of course)
Phoebe is 45 when marries Thomas. Only 4 yrs married before he dies.
Thomas's wife is still alive when they marry. She died post 1871
Question: When is the earliest entry for a child using Albon name? ( excluding Joseph and Sarah Ann whom we are pretty certain are George's)???????
On the b. cert. you have listing the chn. of Phoebe and Thomas, could you just clarify - does it list the offspring of Thom. and Phoebe as individuals OR clearly as joint parents??
Mary is a new name. Is there anything to show when she was born? By the order you have listed the chn., she seems to pre-date Joseph. She is another mystery.
The Tas archive info will be good because it will show us when Thomas was free from his convict " life sentence "to come to Vic and start producing children, if in fact he did.
Does anyone know anything about the term "Life" in a convict sentence?
How short could it be?
Oooooh! I do love a good convict hunt!! Sue
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Hello again Donna,
Goodness me! Thomas and Phoebe certainly knew how to make life difficult for future genealogists - their certificates must just about set a record for the number of fabrications ;D One wonders why, when they married, Phoebe actually gave her correct married and maiden names!
Unfortunately I don't have access to the Vic Pioneer Index or I would look for the death of George (or Joshua) JUDD - though it might well have been before civil registration. As, it seems, were the births of Eliza, David and Emma before we come to the two ABLON children - John Thomas b & d 1860, Alfred William b & d 1863.
One feels that there must be quite a story behind the adoption of the ABLON name by the JUDD children, and their citing of Thomas as their father even though we know for sure that is not true for Joseph and Sarah Ann at least. Well, perhaps Thomas was in Victoria for as long as (or nearly as long as) he says. And perhaps Phoebe took up with him not long after her 1849 arrival - so Joseph and Sarah Ann might always have believed that Thomas was their father and perhaps he actually was Emma's father. Though, if this were the case, one would perhaps have expected some more ABLON children between the start of civil registration (1 Jul 1853) and John Thomas's birth in 1860 ...
I do hope that the Tasmanian Archives come up with some useful information.
All the best,
JAP
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Question: When is the earliest entry for a child using Albon name? ( excluding Joseph and Sarah Ann whom we are pretty certain are George's)???????
John Thomas born 1860 is the earliest. The others were not registered.
Donna - Which children are listed on Thomas' death certificate?
The Tas archive info will be good because it will show us when Thomas was free from his convict " life sentence "to come to Vic and start producing children, if in fact he did.
Does anyone know anything about the term "Life" in a convict sentence?
How short could it be?
Have we establish what sentence Thomas got.
In 1827 the 1st Qualification in obtaining a TOL (Ticket of Leave) of about 16.
Period of transportation - 7 Years Having served four years with one master, or five years with two
Period of Transportation - 14 years Having served Six years with one master, eight years with two, or ten years with three.
Period of Transportation - Life Having served Eight years with one master; ten years with two, or twelve years with three .
Found out today the 'Lady Nugent' went from Hobart to Port Jackson.
Cheers
Genni
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Hi Genni,
So 'Life' could be something between 8 & 12 years?
The reason I say that was his sentence is that Donna mentioned during a PM exchange that Thomas was originally sentenced in Eng to Death and this was reduced to Life as a transportee.
I may well have misunderstood her and we will no doubt hear from her to clarify the issue in due course.
It is possible ,as Jap points out, that he had been in Victoria for the number of years stated on his death certificate (25). Wonder who gave that information at his death. It would place his 'release date' around 1847 - a nice round 10 years. Ah, a tricky man this one! Sue
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With regards to George/Joshua JUDD.
Following from the indexes:-
George JUDD died 1856 (born Wil) aged 44
and
Joshua JUDD married Elizabeth LEWIS 1863.
Genni
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Hi Genni,
Facsinating. Makes it worse not better.
Where is Wil?
Williamstown, Victoria - and he is nothing to do with our George. Or Wiltshire Uk?
The real Joshua was married to Ph. in Saffron Waldron, Essex. There seem to be a few Judds in that district.
Don't know what to think. Any notions? Sue
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Morning Everyone!
Sue, on the birth cert. thereis under the FATHER column a sub heading 'where and when married, issue living and deceased'. Now that to me suggests that those named would be at the very least all the fathers children but certainly the issue of the couple. Mind you looking again with the magnifying glass it also says that homas married Phoebe in 1845 in Chrisall, Essex!!!!! Did these people ever tell the truth?
Also I had another look at Phoebe and Thomas's marr. cert. and under where it says widow for Phoebe it also says 1851. That obviously would suggest that Judd died then...of course nothing else seems to add up on these certificates so that might be totally wrong as well! If it is true though then it would indicate that Emma was a natural child of the couple as she was born c1853.....unless of course Phoebe was with someone else after Judd and before Thomas.
As for the life sentence, then yes it was changed to life after an appeal. The original verdict was death. Thomas and two others had gone for a spot of poaching when they were caught by the gamekeeper. Thomas who had a gun with him threatened to shoot but when seized took a bludgeon from his pocket and hit the gamekeeper. The man was not seriously hurt but the three were accused of poaching and assault. At the trial the jury although saying guilty suggested not a death sentence but the judge who by alll accounts seems to have been a bit of a 'hanging judge' thought otherwise. The three were sentenced to death but the other two had there sentence changed quite quickly and after further appeals Thomas's was changed as well.
Oh and the other question... the children on Thomas's death cert. are the same as on the birth cert of Alfred William! Although on that the child before Joseph is definately Henry and not Mary as I read on the birth cert. The names on the birth cert are very very small and hard to decipher so it could very well be Henry and not Mary.
Donna
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Hi again Donna - a late afternoon/early evening hello from me,
I like Henry!
Assuming that the marriage of Joshua JUDD - with Phoebe MANSFIELD on the same page - on FreeBMD at Saffron Walden Dec qtr 1841 is the couple, then that fits nicely.
This is because FreeBMD also has the following births at Saffron Walden:
Henry JUDD Jun qtr 1843
Joseph JUDD Sep qtr 1845
Sarah Ann JUDD Sep qtr 1848
(and a few other JUDDs but I'll ignore them as they are not mentioned on the Aus certs).
And FreeBMD has the following death at Saffron Walden:
Henry JUDD Sep qtr 1844
JAP
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Afteroon then Jap
Wish it was afternoon here....I'd have finished work instead of having to go off and do some in a while!
Looks like it's definately Henry then. Makes a change to actually be fairly certain about something!
Donna
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Hi Donna,
Don't work too hard - genealogy is far more important!
As you say, it's nice to have something which - rightly or wrongly - looks fairly definite.
The lady I mentioned before (who married an ex-convict late in life) was also a teller of porkies.
She arrived in 1848 and, at 16, she married a Mr Cooper in Melbourne in 1852 and seems to have had two, or possibly three, children with him - the first one died as an infant.
At some stage (after the second or the third child - still not sure as, though the second child was always a Cooper, the third child was always known as Dooley) she took up with a Mr Dooley (we think Mr Cooper survived until 1879). There is no birth record of her next child (a daughter Alice) but, at the birth of a son in 1862, she lied that she had married Mr Dooley at Kangaroo in 1859, and said that they already had a daughter Alice - this latter probably the truth given that Alice was always known as Dooley. There is no birth record of the next daughter Clara Dooley. Next, in 1866, came Isabella - but this time the fussy Registrar was having no porkies. Isabella (though always known as Dooley) was registered under her mother's maiden name and also under her mother's married name of Cooper; and though no father was entered on the birth cert, it was annotated "Informant says she has lived apart from her Husband for 9 years last past". Next child, Rebecca Dooley in 1868 was registered as Dooley and this time her mother lied that she had married Mr Dooley at Creswick Ck in 1856. Then came Hannah Dooley in 1870 by which time her mother said that she had married Mr Dooley at Melbourne in 1852. The births of the next three Dooley children haven't been found. There is, of course, nowhere any marriage between my lady and Mr Dooley (he died in 1880).
By the time my lady died in 1911, there is just one marriage mentioned on her death cert - another fabrication as it says that she married the ex-convict at age 21 in Castlemaine (yes, she married him in Castlemaine, but it was in 1889 when she was about 54!
Frustrating and all as it is for us, one can surely sympathise with their wish not to let the stickybeak Govt official know all their business ;)
JAP
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Morning Friends,
Hot day in Melbourne. Nice barbeque weather.
The baby Eliza (on Alfred's cert.) also shows in Saff Wel. as being born and dying in 1843, so she was Phoebe's too.
Look, I'm probably clutching at straws here, but does anyone think it is worthwhile tracing through Joshua after his marriage to Elizabeth Lewis. Was she of child-bearing age? The names of any chn. or what part of Victoria he subsequently lived in might reveal clues as to whether he is the Joshua we are talking about or whether the deceased George is our man.
I also understand how incredibly disjointed and hard to read these old records are, so up to you.
Donna, this is pure curiosity, but are there any wittnesses to the marriage? Where in Melb. did it take place?
Jap, you convict ancestor was an IMPOSSIBLE woman! But I enjoyed her story.
Sue
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Hi All,
Sue, this is trivial but, re Eliza, I didn’t think that the Saffron Waldon one fitted. Partly because she is not in the right order for the names on Alfred William’s birth cert but also because she was born (and died) Sep qtr 1843 and this would not fit with Henry who was born Jun qtr 1843. But of course FreeBMD is not complete and, without the certificates, it is just guesswork.
As an aide-memoire to myself I’ll try to set down events (and possible events) and add a couple of additional ones – hope it’s correct.
1836 – Thomas ALBON, a convict, married, arrives in Australia on the ‘Lady Nugent’
1841 – Joshua JUDD marries Phoebe MANSFIELD, Dec qtr, Saffron Walden
1843 – Henry JUDD born, Jun qtr, Saffron Walden
1844 – Henry JUDD dies, Sep qtr, Saffron Walden
1845 – Joseph JUDD born, Sep qtr, Saffron Walden
1848 – Sarah Ann JUDD born, Sep qtr, Saffron Walden
1848 – JUDD family arrives in Australia in November on the ‘Royal George’; George (34), Phoebe (26), Joseph (4), Sarah Ann (Infant)
18?? – Eliza (true parentage unknown) born; she dies before the birth of Alfred William ALBON in 1863
18?? – David (true parentage unknown) born; he dies before the birth of Alfred William ALBON in 1863
1852-55 – Emma (true parentage unknown) born; the later birthdate is from her age of 8 on birth cert of Alfred William ALBON, earlier date from her age of 62 at death in 1914.
1856 – A George JUDD dies
1860 – John Thomas ALBON is born and dies in Footscray
1863 – Alfred William ALBON is born and dies in Footscray
1863 – A Joshua JUDD marries an Elizabeth LEWIS
1868 – Thomas ALBON (born Bedfordshire) marries Phoebe JUDD nee MANSFIELD (born Essex); Thomas is described as a bachelor and Phoebe as a widow with a date in that column of 1851. Thomas says he has no children; Phoebe says she has 3 living and 5 dead.
1871 – Joseph ALBON (born Essex) marries Jane STANNARD (born London); they have a son b Melb N, died Carl.
1872 – Thomas ALBON, age 56, parents unknown dies
1873 – Emma ALBON (born Footscray) marries John STEWART; they have children in Footscray
1873 – Sarah Ann ALBON (born Essex) marries John MONK; they have children in Footscray
1877 – Joseph Judd ALBON (born Essex) marries Harriet YOUNG; they have children in Prahran and Melb
1878 – Phoebe ALBON (born Essex) marries Richard William WEARING (born Greenwich)
1885 – Phoebe WEARING dies, age 64, father Mansfield Jno, mother Abigail, at Footscray
1886 – Sarah Ann MONK dies, age 37, father Alton (sic) Thos, mother Phoebe Albon MANSFIELD, at Footscray
1914 – Emma STEWART dies, age 62, father given as Thomas Albon and mother as Phoebe.
1917 - Jos Judd ALBON dies, age 72, parents Thomas ALBON and Phoebe MANSFIELD, at Cheltenham
So we have the death of Thomas ALBON, we have the death of Phoebe MANSFIELD later JUDD later ALBON later WEARING, we have the death of Sarah Ann JUDD aka ALBON later STEWART, we have the death of Emma (father unproven) known as ALBON later MONK, and now we have (later post from Genni) the death of Joseph JUDD aka ALBON. I don’t seem to have the death of Joseph JUDD aka ALBON.
However, the most important thing for Donna, whose interest is in Thomas ALBON, is whether or not Emma is a biological child of Thomas’s. That doesn't seem to be something we can find out? Also, of course, whether Thomas fathered any children between his arrival in 1836 and whenever it was that he took up with Phoebe...
JAP
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Hi Everyone
Nicely summarised Jap.
I'll just add Josh Judd ALBON died 1917 Cheltenham Aged 72 Ref: 900
Parents stated as Thomas ALBON and Phoebe MANSFIELD
The significant thing is Joseph knew there was a Judd connection.
My only thought is for them to go up as ALBON'S it would seem the name would have been used from a very young age. Joseph especially as he was 4 when they arrived.
It would appear they stayed in the Footscray area from the beginning, if she changed partners 7 or 8 years down the track the children would still have been known by their original surname.
There are school records held at the PROV, I'll see if I can find anything.
Cheers
Genni
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Hi everyone
Answer to Sue's question about whereabouts of Thomas's marriage and witnesses......witnesses were Joel Mansfield and Susanna Mansfield, obviously some sort of family connection to Phoebe. Place.....well that's a little harder...very difficult to make out.....I don't know any of the places around the Melbourne area but it looks as if it starts with an F or maybe a K. Short name don't think it's Footscray unless who ever wrote it down shortened it but there doesn't seem to be a Y at the end.
Nice summary JAP...Emma's marriage certificate gives her age as 20 in 1873 so that would put her birth c 1853.
Do any of you think it's worth me buying the marriage certificate for Phoebe Mansfield and Joshua Judd or any of the children? Don't want to waste money but if it would help clear anything up then it might be worth it.
It will be interesting Genni to see if you find anything in the school records.
Donna
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Hi Donna,
If I were you, before shelling out more money on certificates, I'd be waiting for
a) response from the Tasmanian Archives,
and
b) any information which the meticulous Genni might find from school records.
I guess I might be a bit interested in Phoebe's death cert - though no doubt it will be as misleading as so much of her history and/or everything she's ever said! Perhaps a descendant of hers might have it?
Meantime you could always upload the place from the marriage cert and let us all have some fun deciphering it.
With this family it's hard to know what to believe so who knows about Emma - was she born ca 1852, ca 1853, ca 1855 none of which is too far apart. And, as they say, it's a wise child that knows its own father!
I for one certainly look forward to more info especially, firstly, that from the Tasmanian Archives.
Best regards,
JAP
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Good advice JAP
In the meantime here is the marriage place
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Don't think that worked properly....never added an image before.
Donna
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OFF TOPIC
Sue,
Isabella wasn't a convict - that was the husband she married late in life.
And she was my children's ancestor not mine.
I have no convicts anywhere unfortunately. Nor do my children - though they came close. Their GgUncle (who married one of Isabella's daughters) was sentenced in 1848 to 7 years transportation to VDL for forging and uttering. A respected tenant farmer of Fife from a long line of respected tenant farmers on both sides and married to the daughter of a similar chap from Rothesay Bute, he ended up on the hulks in Portsmouth a few years later due to sail to VDL - fortunately various petitions for mercy signed by many gentry, worthies and clergy of West Fife now succeeded and he was pardoned. In 1855 he sailed free to Melbourne. Whether he and two other brothers who also emigrated to Australia - including my children's ancestor Robert - ever met up in Victoria I do not know.
Cheers,
JAP
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Hi Friends,
Jap that is a terrific bit of work. I am going to print it and sticky tape it to the computer so I have a ' ready prompt' to clarify my thoughts as is quite often necessary.
By the way I see your point about Eliza, She is way out of time line. Thanks.
Donna, I suspect that the suburb you are struggling to read is Footscray. The registrars were fond of smart little abbreviations and the column is narrow. Trouble is there seems no consistent set- down lexicon for the abbrevations so they just made up their own. It might be Ftc. Ftcy. Footsc. or other. As most life events took place there, Footscray is likely.
Jap & genni are best advisers on whether to get the cert. They are the experts in the Index and certificate business down here.
I am interested that Phoebe obviously had blood relations in Melbourne. Heaven knows who they were. It suggests a supportive family circle, but doesn't reveal much else.
We see that Phoebe did not like the solitary life and chose to marry yet again after Thom. died.
And Donna, I must get you to look at your post in its place on the main board (child board - Emmigrants to Australia)
Please note that you have FIRE ON THE FOLDER!! Remember when I said in PM that once they get hold of a convict the Aust. rootschatters will keep going at him to the bitter end. Great thread!! xxxSue
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Hi Ratty,
Everything looks like FOOTSCRAY to me.
Cheers,
Moley (sorry, just joking)
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Hi Sue,
For anyone who is interested in MANSFIELD ancestry, that is certainly something to be followes up.
JAP
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AND A PS:
If that scan is really what the certificate look like, I'd be asking the Vic BDM people for something better.
JAP
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Well Footscray it is then....I guess my attempt at an attachment worked after all!
Donna
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Yes that's what it looks like and what's more that's one of the better ones!
Donna
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Donna, I think I'd be hassling the Vic BDM! Not because I think they've done anything wrong but digitising images is difficult - they go for the average and so, of course, many (darker, lighter, whatever) don't come across too well. But, usually, the offices concerned are more than happy to provide a better paper image (at no cost) for digital images which are hopeless.
Donna, yes your uploads worked brilliantly (I've never tried one!). The second one better as far as I'm concerned.
Donna and Sue, hope you have good results from the private correspondence re convicts to which you refer. And Sue, that the MANSFIELDs and JUDDs (yours?) come good.
And perhaps earlier Sands & McDougalls PO directories might help.
This is a great puzzle!
JAP
PS: As Sue says, the places (and abbreviations) in the Vic Indexes could be anything and can be totally misleading. Local Registrars seemed to use whatever abbrevations suited them so there's no way there can be a definitive listing. On another RC thread there was reference to the abbrevation Chil (usually Chiltern in NE Vic as I assumed); but it turned out to be Chilwell near Geelong!!
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Hi
The 'e' on Albon is back again on the cert. Seems to come and go.
Jap, I thought for many years that I had no convict either. The previous generations was very quiet and ashamed about such connections and it was not revealed to their children, so not to my generation. It was only through research on the part of a relative that the truth came to light and even then the surviving elderly relatives (ie my father's brothers) have trouble accepting it as truth and do not care to discuss the matter.
Often the convict was just described to the young as an arrival from Eng. and about 10 years of his life in VDL ignored or not noticed. .
Mine Gerge Cornish, was absolutely incorrigible and continually had his sentence extended for defiance and insubordination. Eventually settled down and raised a lovely family. Bit like Thomas. It is interesting that it is now a claim to fame.
Thanks for the nice chat. Sue
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Sue,
My lot (terribly proper) were proud of NOT having convict ancestors. They might have tried harder to find some (given that they were invariably trying to be upwardly moblie) had they realized how fashionable convict ancestry would become in later years.
They used to wave the passage certificates around to prove there were no convicts.
Though my HACKING lot were desperate to claim a connexion with Henry HACKING, a sailor of the First Fleet - of course they didn't know what a rogue he was.
I'd like to find a convict (or two) but - try as I may - I can't!
Even my children's GgUncle John, convicted to transportation for the "gentleman's" crime of forgery and uttering, and on the hulks in 1850, was pardoned and CAME FREE in 1855 on the 'Goldfinder' - and, naturally, became a successful businessman.
Judy
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Whilst 'googling' Footscray I came across a site for the Footscray Historical Society, so I've asked if they have any information about Thomas and gang in their records. Thought it was worth a try, might turn up something interesting. I'll let you all know what happens.
Donna
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Hi Everyone
Donna - notice that your attachments are Tif images, are the originals?
As to where the marriage took place i'd say Kew, which is of course a fair way from Footscray but if people in the area thought you were married you'd probably go somewhere else to marry.
The Kew Baptist church, the other images on the page will be the same church are they any clearer?
Genni
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Hi Donna,
I too have emailed the Footscray historical society. When you first posted your Thomas enquiry, I found a reference to a Thomas Albon on Rootsweb. There is a part of this site called Aust & NZ contributions (or such) and when you put in a name, any book or newspaper reference to the name comes up.
You can go to Ryerson index from there too.
Anyhow a book reference to Thom. Albon came up. You only get the reference,not the actual 'quote'
The book is 'Punts, Pubs and Pastures' and it is about women in early Saltwater River which is now called Footscray. The reference to Thomas Albon is on pg 15
I tried to get at the book through my library, but could not be done. Tried to locate it at another libray and they currently can't find it though it is cataloged as being held there. I have contacted the hist. soc. in hopes, but after 10 days or so , no response. They perhaps meet infequently. We must be patient. Sue .
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Hi Donna, If you go to www.whitepages.com.au you will find in Melbourne, Victoria, a concentration of Albon families, after you do a Victoria metropolitan search. I live in Melbourne, so if I can expedite things by phoning them for you, just let me know. Regards, Irene
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Apologies all!
I had only looked at the residence of the bride and groom and both were clearly Footscray - Thomas a storekeeper, and Phoebe assistant in store.
But yes, the place of the marriage is Kew, and specifically at the residence of Joel MANSFIELD at Kew; and the marriage - by license - was conducted at Joel's residence by a Baptist Minister of Kew. I guess the Sands & McDougall directory for that year might pinpoint where Joel's place was. Phoebe's parents look to be John MANSFIELD (Wheelwright?) and Abigail BUSH. Thomas's harder to decipher - Thomas ALBON (Laborer?) and Sarah possibly WRIGHT (or BRIGHT or KNIGHT).
Thomas (strangely) admits to no children at all (not even John Thomas ALBON and Alfred William ALBON, both of whom died in infancy) - perhaps he was just being delicate so as not to point to the fact that he and Phoebe had had children before they were married. Phoebe however seems to get her children right - 3 living (that would be Joseph, Sarah Ann and Emma) and 5 dead (which would be Henry, Eliza, David, John Thomas and Alfred William); I guess, as a widow, there were no constraints on her admitting to have had previous children unlike 'bachelor' Thomas.
Donna, if that's the quality of the original download I'd certainly be requesting a more legible paper copy - gratis!
Cheers,
JAP
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Hi Genni
The way one gets the certificates is as pdf images which one then has to print off. You don't actually get a download as such to save. They give you several days to print the image and you can take as many copies as you want within that time.
Morniing Jap or should I say good afternoon, so it's Kew is it. I wondered ,then thought I was seeing things! You were right with your assumption about the name of Thomas's mother it was Sarah Wright and his father was a labourer, in English census terms an 'ag lab'. Mind you the majority of the population in the area they were from did the same thing because that was the main form of employment.
Oh well, Sue, looks like the Historical Society is going to think Thomas is a popular chap! I too had seen the reference to the book but thinking that there was no way I could get to see a copy had, I must admit, forgotten about it. Would be interesting to know what it says though wouldn't it?
Hello Irene, welcome to the party! Had a look at your link and taken a note of the names etc. Thanks for the very kind offer of ringing them but I think I might wait just a little. Thomas and Phoebe seem to have 'created' their own family and I don't want to upset anyone who might not know all the history. Think it might be better to try and get a few more facts. Very helpful to know there are Albon families still in the area though.
Donna
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Hi Genni
The way one gets the certificates is as pdf images which one then has to print off. You don't actually get a download as such to save. They give you several days to print the image and you can take as many copies as you want within that time.
Sue
I save them to my computer all the time, If you don't have that option, PM me the numbers and I'll save them for you.
Cheers
Genni
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Hello Everyone
After one minor comment, this thread appears in my "new replies to your post" list. I'm so glad I said something, as it is a most enjoyable thread. Sorry i can't add more. If only they knew the lengths we would go to - they probably would never have recorded anything. ;D
Trish
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Glad your're enjoying it Trish and you're probably right they wouldn't have said anything if they had of known that in a hundred years or so a pack of genealogists would have been hot on their heels! Wonder what people will be thinking about us lot in a few hundred years!?!
Donna
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Hi,
Here are a few PO and other entries for the Mansfields. Interesting, but not really helpful.
1856 electoral roll JOEL MANSFIELD, Boroondara Division ( this covers Kew and surrounding suburbs) Bricklayer. Freehold house and land.
1862 Sands McDougal. JOEL MANSFIELD Carpenter . Stanley Sreet West Melbourne. He is the only entry for that year.
1868 - The marriage year -Sands McD. JOEL MANSFIELD carpenter 69 Stanley Street West Melbourne.
J. Mansfield, Builder. FITZWILLIAM STREET, KEW.
Henry Mansfield Andrew Street Prahran.
Mrs Mansfield 131 Moor Street F.
Mansfield W. Builder, Kew.
Fitzwilliam Street is a leafy pleasant street with some large blocks. No street number was listed.
Sue
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Hi All
Went to the Public Records Office today. Found the following:-
Probate Index
Thomas Albon Footscray Storekeeper died 27/12/1872 probate granted 2/4/1885 Joel Mansfield (Reserving Leave) Ref: 30/30
Phoebe Wearing Footscray Widow died 27/2/1885 probate granted 14/5/1885
G B Little Ref: 29/652
Richard William Wearing Footscray Carpenter died 17/5/1884 Letters of Adiministration Probate granted 24/6/1884 Richard R Wearing Ref: 27/830
Thomas' will may prove interesting.
Cheers
Genni
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Hi Ratty,
This may interest you for further 'will enquiry'
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~dpsoc/wills.htm
Choose Victoria.
Sue
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Hi All, As I mentioned in a previous post, I emailed the Footscray Hist. Society re. a reference to Thomas Albon in a local history book.
They have got back to me today saying that they have 'a wealth of information ' on him. Unfortunately none of it was revealed in the email, ::)other than to say that the reference in that book is just a listing of lands held by him!
The term 'lands' may be a clue to why there may have been difficulties with the Will's execution.
I have sent a PM to you Ratty with the details if you want to follow up, though I think the historian was getting in touch with you too. Sue
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Hi everyone
I promise I haven't been ignoring you, but I've been without an internet connection for four days!!! Talk about feeling lost. As Sue said the historical society did contact me but al they told me was to get in touch with Sue! The message they sent her talks about a wealth of information but no indication as to how much a 'wealth' is...think it could be worth the $20 research fee but there are copying cost on top so I don't know how much that would be. They also give the address of a relation to John Monk, Sarah Ann Albon's first husband...think it would be worth dropping him a line.
Interesting info Genni...I'll check the link out Sue.
Donna
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Hi Donna,
I can't believe that I didn't regognize the Monk name immediately. I kept thinking I've heard it before somewhere. Too tangled a web!
We may be lucky and discover that Dr. Monk already holds the 'wealth of information' and is happy to share it with you. A quick check of the PO directory suggests he may have moved house since contacting the Hist Soc.
I will PM you his likely new address. He might be glad to give you an email address to correspond through.
Let me know if I can help.
Sue
PS. A closer reading of the HIst Soc Info. it says 'his name on a map of lands' not 'lands held by him' Too excited to concentrate properly.
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Morning everyone
Just thought I'd let you know that I had an email reply to the letter I sent to Dr Monk. He is the grandson of John Monk who's first wife was Sarah Ann Albon. He doesn't make it clear whether his father was a child of John and Sarah Ann or of a later marriage. At the moment it hasn't yielded much more information but I have sent him copies of all the certificates and another letter detailing all of OUR thoughts..he says in original email he might be able to fill in some gaps....here's hoping!
Donna
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Hi all,
Made the trip to the PRO today - Donna have organised copy of Thomas Albon's will for you.
In Phoebe's probate (too many papers and too expensive to copy, must remember to take my digital camera as you are allowed to photograph the papers) - found the following very interesting.
Joseph Albon in affidavit states that he is know by his friends by both Joseph Judd & Joseph Albon. And that his true and correct name is Joseph Judd.
Phoebe left specifically the following items to family members (the rest was shared equally)
Emma - the picture Mr Albon and the Cockaloe (that's what it like - writing was near impossible to read)
Joseph - the family bible (he had given it to his parents as a present)
Sarah - Album and Electric Machine
Ada Maud - the Buggy
Cheers
Genni
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Hi Genni
Brilliant, can't wait to see what the will says.
Nice to know that Joseph admitted at some point what his true name was even if he did give the wrong one on the certificates.
Do you think maybe the picture was of 'Mr Albon and the Cockatoo'?
Intriguing to know what 'Album and Electric machine' is.
Donna
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Hi All,
Genni, I am in stitches. What if it is not a picture of 'Mr. Albon and the cockatoo', but the picture of Mr, Albon and also the cockatoo.
Whichever, I think Emma got a raw deal. The electric machine sounds more useful whatever it is!!
Sue
ps Love your new picture gennig. Dear little children.
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Okay Sue
I guess it would make more sense if it was a picture of Mr Albon and also a cockatoo. Personally though I'd rather have a cockatoo than an electric machine! Much more interesting... mind you my two dogs would also fiind it interesting!!
Donna
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Donna,
Wouldn't we love the picture of Mr. Albon though. You might still find a living descendant who has it. You just never know in this game.
Did you know that cockatoos have extraordinarily long lives?
Up to 100 years. True.
We might find it too!!!!
Sue
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Yes, and with this family just think what tales that cockatoo might be able to tell!
On the subject of Emma....I found a picture of her and John Stewart's son on the Footscray Historical Society page. Roy McGregor Stewart was at wounded at Gallipoli.
Donna
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I'll have a look. Such a Scottish name for the boy. His father must have had a strong heritage.
No, no, no, let's not even think about it!
Nearly caught again.
Sue
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Donna & Sue
Word could mean a cockatoo, must admit that never crossed my mind. That word was fairly clear and I thought it was some kind of material thing not living.
It was a codicil on Phoebe's will and written just prior to her death and the writing was very scratchy. I didn't get copies of her things because there was so many, next time I go up I will take my camera a take a photo.
The Electric machine had me puzzled but I think it maybe a cash register or adding machine as Sarah & her husband John ran a store.
Thomas named the three children in his will, leaving them all sections of land. Claimed them as his children didn't say 'Step'.
The fact Emma was given the photo of Mr Albon, seems to suggest she was his actual daughter.
Sue - those dear little children in my picture, are me & my twin sister!!! I'm the one on the right.
Cheers
Genni
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Genni,
You've certainly homed in on the important point i.e. that Joseph ALBON stated that his 'true and correct' name was Joseph JUDD. Very convincing!
Have to love the dear little children ;)
What next?
JAP
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Hi everyone,
Just read a copy of Thomas's will (courtesy of the one and only Genni) and for a former ag lab and convict he seems to have done quite well for himself, amassing property to the value of around £3,500 - £4,000! Not a bad amount in the 1870's.
Referring back to your comment Genni about the photo being given to Emma suggesting that she was a real daughter, I too had thought that this was an indication of the same.
Donna
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Hi Donna,
That must certainly be an interesting document. I wonder whether the convict experience created a determination to make a financial success of his remaining life.
Are we are still waiting for his convict details from Tassie?
Anything of interest from Dr. Monk lately?
Sue
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Hi Sue
Yes still waiting for the details from Tasmania and still waiting for the stuff from the Footscray Historical Society. Most frustrating but I guess I'll get something soon....I hope.
Not much more from Dr Monk he said he was going to send some copies of info which he had but nothing has arrived yet.
Donna