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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Topic started by: Keith Sherwood on Friday 21 October 05 17:06 BST (UK)
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Hi, Everyone,
Just thought I'd put this little poser in front of you to see whether anyone can make head or tail or what the true DYSON family relations are meant to be in this household, at 5, Clay Street, Oldham, Lancs. RG11 Piece/ Folio 4073/68 Page no. 46.
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation
Thomas DYSON Head M Male 51 Ashton Labourer
Lancs
Sarah DYSON Dau M Female 55 Plymouth Housekeeper
Samuel H... Son U Male 18 Plymouth Cotton
(DYSON) Operative
Agnes H. H... Dau U Female 13 Plymouth Cotton
(DYSON) Operative
Rosina H... Dau Female 9 Plymouth Scholar
(DYSON)
As you can see, the ages, relationships, and even place of birth do not add up at all. Any ideas about what errors have possibly been put down, and does anyone have access to the original image of this entry, as this is off the familysearch. org website...
very best wishes,
Keith
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Bit difficult to read Keith but, yes it does give those ages, the middle initial "H" for the children isn't right though.
I would imagine the enumerator has just had a couple to drink and wrote "daur" where it should have been wife, nevertheless she could be a little on the mature site to have a 9 year old child. ;D ;D ;D
Send me a pm with your email address and I'll send further details.
Mary
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I'm still thinking - will need to search a couple of other censuses but I wonder if she became housekeeper to Thomas, moved in together with HER family and then married Thomas and all the family were classed as "Dysons" when the enumerator came around.
Mary
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Great, Mary,
I'd really like to have a look at the original. There are still one or two question marks even assuming a mistake writing "dau" instead of "wife"; and her extreme age when giving birth to her 9-year-old. I don't see why the "DYSON" name is in brackets for the children, for one thing...
Very best wishes,
keith
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Sorry, was just finishing my reply when you were adding a postscript - you must admit it's a bizarre entry all told. Alcohol abuse might cover a multitude of sins...!
Keith
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Ooops :-[ :-[ :-[ hangs head in shame
I'm not allowed to offer you the scan, been told off :P
Send me a pm and commiserate.
BTW I'm not sure that Dyson is in brackets, in fact I'm not positive that it is DYSON at all for the children - maybe Higham ...
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I agree with Mary A.
The image is not the greatest but it looks like the children have a different name beginning with H something like H**ham.
Sue
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The interesting point is that in 1871 he is at home with his parents and in 1891 living with his brother at a pub. ???
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I'm wondering about Ingham, only because there's a marriage in 1874 December qtr of Sarah Ingham to James Thomas Dyson Oldham 8d 1153
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The interesting point is that in 1871 he is at home with his parents and in 1891 living with his brother at a pub. ???
If that's the case I would think maybe the enumerator was totally sozzled when he wrote "daur" and Sarah was actually the housekeeper and everybody was dittoed down from Dyson. Well not everybody, just Sarah with the assumption made that she was housekeeper.
Mary
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In 1891 I am sure that Thomas is down as single. It seems the same person as the 1881 entry.
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My thought was - Sarah might be his spinster sister! ( as she's 4 years older than him !! ::)
Annie
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My thought was - Sarah might be his spinster sister! ( as she's 4 years older than him !! ::)
The difficulty with that is the place of birth.
Nessie, please post details, I'm sure Keith would appreciate them and we can have a look too.
Mary
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This is incredible, MaryA, Annie, Sue and Nessie,
I've only just gone to put the kettle on (well...actually more of a sidetrack than that) and this Census entry has been really dissected by you four good ladies. I've even had a whisper in the ear from MaryA to hurry up and send her a PM with my e-mail address so she can send me a copy of the image.
From what I can gather, this Ingham marriage looks a real pointer. But I'll have a good butcher's (as in hook, as in look) on the image presently....
Thank you all so much for this...
Keith
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1871 RG10/4103/10/16
2 Howard Street Oldham
John Dyson head age 57 twiner
Ellen wife age 54
Thomas son age 30 clogger and shire walker
JR Morley Dyson son age 21 clogger and shire walker
William Morley Dyson son age 16 joiner
Sarah Needham Dyson dau age 11 scholar
All born Oldham
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I have had the disc on for the 1881 census and failed to find the mixed up entry for Thomas Dyson ???
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This is getting better and better - bit like a frantic monthly Rootschat Challenge. Now what exactly is a "clogger and shire walker" for heaven's sake?
Keith
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Bedtime reading Keith!
No shire walker though :P
http://www.amlwchdata.co.uk/occupations.htm
Annie
PS I think Ellen was married 3 times Morley Needham and Dyson
She died - his sister came to look after him and the children
and she was born in Plymouth because their father was in the Navy ::)
Howz that Mary ??? ???
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?? Shire Walker - was he the chap that walked the stallion from farm to farm to visit the mares, a seasonal occupation ;D therefore made clogs the rest of the year ??
Don't know how rural that part of Oldham was in those days but I spose there were always the brewery and tram horses.
Suey
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Not quite my bedtime yet, but I see from your splendid list, Annie, that the man "made" clogs. Now what about the "shire walker" bit - was that a recreational pursuit or something to do with horses...?
I'd also quite like to know the name of the Pub in the 1891 Census, Nessie, I think it was...
keith
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Just reread the census entry I posted and the age of that Thomas seems to be 10 years to young ??? Will have to go look again. Sorry if I confused you :'(
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The shire walker was someone who excerised the horses when they were not needed for pulling the carts for delivery
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Suey!
That was pretty smart of you! did you think that up yourself ?? ;) ;)
Annie
See you and Nessie just know good stuff like that !! :D
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Keith the pub was the Church Inn on Beardsley Street Oldham. But I haven't posted the census as I thought it was the wrong Thomas ???
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Hi, Nessie,
This is getting extremely frantic - I feel quite out of breath - and now you're thinking we've got a "Doubting Thomas" on our hands. I do hope he's our man still, as this has been such fun, and I like to be able to lay claim to pubs (and cloggers - though sometimes they used that term about our local football team) frequented in the past by family ancestors...
keith
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I'm getting frantic now Keith ;D Have checked for a Thomas Dyson ten years younger born Oldham and come up with nothing ??? So were the ages on the 1881 census wrong as well?
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I'm wondering about Ingham, only because there's a marriage in 1874 December qtr of Sarah Ingham to James Thomas Dyson Oldham 8d 1153
I have a Sarah Ingham in my tree so did a census look up 1881 for the above Sarah.
Thomas Tetlow wife Sarah -
James T. Dyson wife Margaret - RG11/4089 folio 69 page 15 Oldham
On free BMDs the four names are the two males above and Sarah Ingham and Margaret Hutchinson, Dec qtr 1874 Oldham 8d 1153.
Susan :)
sorry folks put the wrong ref for Thomas Tetlow - will look again ???
Just ignore me folks can't find it now ??? perhaps I was lookin in different census year.
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I have had the disc on for the 1881 census and failed to find the mixed up entry for Thomas Dyson ???
Nessie - Disc 1 North Central Region Lancashire A-J ;D
Reads the same as on the Ancestry transcript, I reckon they couldn't read the surname that's why H... (DYSON) appears ::)
Susan :)
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Thanks Susan. went back and found it as I had been 10 years out in the birthdate :) But I still can't find him with that birthdate and birthplace in the other censuses. Looking at the 1881, I am not sure it is Aston anyway ;D
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I've even had a whisper in the ear from MaryA to hurry up and send her a PM with my e-mail address so she can send me a copy of the image.
I'll have you know Keith that when MaryA gets impatient she doesn't whisper, she gets LOUD!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Me thinks Annie has a good imaginashun :P
I didn't find the correct Thomas either, was a bit bothered by what you had found but weren't telling us Nessie. However, I would agree with the transcriber that his birthplace reads ASHTON which could well mean that earlier census entries could be in Cheshire as Ashton Under Lyne is often noted as being there.
I thought maybe Rosina would be the easiest name to find (although coincidentally having just today helped somebody else with a family with a Rosina and found her birth had been registered "Rose Helena" ) the only Rosina I could find born Plymouth in 1891 was in Bootle, but strangely enough the parents were Thomas and Sarah, ages and birthplaces out though .....
Just food for thought.
Mary
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Mary,
The roaring hurricane has appeared in my PM's - very large and VERY difficult to say without the slightest doubt what the exact intention was. I'm going to be quite feeble and say that the familysearch.org version seems a pretty good stab at it, though I'm still not sure about the DYSON/INGHAM thing...
Talk about sitting uncomfortably on the fence, but at least this topic has been thoroughly aired, and thank you all for diving in to help.
Hadn't realised that Ashton might have come under Cheshire once - that might encourage me to look in places I hadn't even considered before...
keith
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I can't see Ingham on that image ??? but then I've gawped at it till I'm now boss-eyed ::) has anyone found an Agnes or Samuel born Plymouth in the 1871 yet cos I'm dipped if I can find one to fit.
Suey
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Hi Suey,
Doesn't look like Ingham to me ???
Also looked at 1871 for Samuel and Agnes and can't find one to fit.
Fresh eyes tomorrow :)
Susan
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Susan, yes 'time for bed' methinks....
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Sorry all, I think I dropped off to sleep and left you all at it!
I did say that the Ingham was only a suggestion because of the marriage I'd found and the possible ending of the children's surname .....ham, nowt definite about it at all.
Anyway Keith, I'd be interested to know what you have for whoever you were looking up at the time, was it Thomas or Sarah? what other info do you have and maybe we can look at this from around a different corner.
Mary
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Mary,
I'm afraid that I was initially trying a stab in the dark, trying to find a Thomas DYSON who was given as a witness at the second wedding of a James Greaves DYSON in King's Norton in 1871. His grandfather was the William DYSON whom I've been trying to establish (it seems for ever, now) as having been born in Ashton...
Just looking for some kind of possible family connection - there weren't all that many Thomas DYSON's listed in the 1881 Census, and I just happened on the one in Oldham; then became perplexed by the details of the entry.
Maybe I've caused a bit of a storm in a tea-cup over someone not even related to J.G.Dyson - though threads plucked out of the air like the monthly Rootschat Challenge seem to get a real head of steam up.
But one is still curious about that DYSON family that I unearthed, and I am sure if we were certain about INGHAM or not, we'd have found that family somewhere in Plymouth by now...
Keith (you asked for a ramble, and you got one - I've just re-read this...)
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Hi, Everyone,
Just a postscript on this lively and entertaining thread (while it lasted) in that I've had a look on the ScottishPeoples website at their newly-up-and-running 1861 Census. I've paid my Scottish pounds to discover for the first time that James Greaves Dyson had a half-brother called Thomas Dyson born in Innellan, near Dunoon, Argyllshire in 1849/50.
HE must surely be the witness at his half-brother's wedding in 1871, and as I hadn't put in the "Born in Scotland" element when I searched the 1881 English Census, he wasn't in the short-list.
However, some good family history was unearthed on this thread, even if it was the wrong Thomas...
Thanks for all those contributions, nevertheless,
Keith
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I love it when you unearth a new sibling, well done Keith and good luck for the rest of the tree!
Mary
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Mary,
Even though I had to spend a little of my hard-earned money on a pay-per-view 1861 Scottish Census, it was still a thrilling moment (what DO people make of us mad family history enthusiasts? - I know members (living) of my own family think I'm past salvation).
And I see this thread has been shunted away from the mainstream and headlight glare of The Common Room. But this was my first experience of a Workhouse Porter and Portress (politically incorrect, surely, today...)
Very best wishes,
keith
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For those of you who might be interested, here is a free site:
http://www.egrave.com/index.asp