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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Hackstaple on Thursday 20 October 05 17:05 BST (UK)
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Fellow Rootschatters - usually I am the helper but I have a thorny one that somebody may just have the key to. This is the second wife of my wife's paternal grandfather and I am helping her half-cousin research his side of the family. What we have:
The Archives in Cape Town have the following information:
Death of Alice Riley - maiden name Alice Frances Butler - died 20 Mar 1943 - age 73 years & 7 months - born October 1869, England. Husband's name Charles Riley [died 1942]. You will already have spotted a error in calculation in her exact age at date of death!
A search on Ancestry and then on 1837online revealed only one Alice Frances Butler Dec. 1865 Bethnal Green 1c p. 325 - there are others born near the date but birth records on 1837online always show a second Christian name if given. The 1865 does not worry me as she seems to have married at asomething about age 30 and a maiden lady of those days might easily knock off a few years to help with finding a husband and then stick with that story.
OK so far? - there is a family legend that she was the daughter of a Doctor of "Cheltenham" - these people live in South Africa so any vaguely similar name might do.
I find no Alice that fits in 1871 or 1881 and no Dr. Butler with a daughter Alice in 1881.
She married Charles Riley about 1894 or 1895 - nobody knows if this was in England or South Africa.
She had a son who was sent to a private boarding school in England - Tollington in the Muswell Hill area. So, I have tried to find her round there in '81 and '91 on the basis that she would hardly have picked a school with which she had no familiarity. There were some pretty good boarding schools in South Africa, even back then so it was not a normal thing to do. I formed the idea that her parents may have lived in that area - perhaps he was not a boarder but a day scholar living at their home.
I doubt whether anybody will want to spend a week on this as I have but perhaps someone may have this Dr. Butler or one of his children in their own blood line. ???
Lastly - her third son - not the one who went to Tollington, was christened Charles Henry de Beauvoir Riley. The de Beauvoir bit intrigues me. The others were Ernest, Cecil Myer, Violet Isobel so no fancypants middle names there. Does that offer any clue? There was a de Beauvoir St. in East London, I think Hackney.There was a de Beauvoir in the 1891 census but none before or after that I have found. 8)
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Poor Old Hack!
Post this on the South Africa board too! Rutti Tutti is very good at prising out information!! and we can work on it at this end!
Annie ;)
Edit - Hack - could the Butler mentioned here be a relative?
http://www.tollington.com/id130.htm
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Hack,
There is a marriage on freebmd for Mar 1867 between a John Edmond De Beauvoir and either a Caroline Ann Beckley or a Latitia(?) Mann (not sure which), in the Islington district. (Vol 1b page 301). Interestingly enough, this district covers Tollington...wonder if they are linked to you?? ???
millerina
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It reminded me of a comment made in one of the monthly challenges about where middle names came from - de Beauvoir could be a godparent - especially if they had some money ;) if you know what I mean. Unfortunately many christenings unless they were RC don't give the godparents names.
Mary
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Poor Old Hack!
Post this on the South Africa board too! Rutti Tutti is very good at prising out information!! and we can work on it at this end!
Annie ;)
Edit - Hack - could the Butler mentioned here be a relative?
http://www.tollington.com/id130.htm
Hi Annie
I had spent some time previously on this Butler but in the 1891 census I found an E.A. Butler, schoolmaster, but he was down in Kent and so hardly able to act as Vice-Principal at Tollington Park. However, there may still be some link to "my" Alice Butler.
I posted this query also on the S. Africa board but it is not really the South African connection that I need.
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It reminded me of a comment made in one of the monthly challenges about where middle names came from - de Beauvoir could be a godparent - especially if they had some money ;) if you know what I mean. Unfortunately many christenings unless they were RC don't give the godparents names.
Mary
Good point Mary. I had chased a red herring in this direction as I assumed that because her step-son was a Catholic [of sorts] then she would be also. However her eldest grandson told me recently that their whole family were C of E. But the godfather idea is good - perhaps there was a family friend de Beauvoir in South Africa.
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Hack,
There is a marriage on freebmd for Mar 1867 between a John Edmond De Beauvoir and either a Caroline Ann Beckley or a Latitia(?) Mann (not sure which), in the Islington district. (Vol 1b page 301). Interestingly enough, this district covers Tollington...wonder if they are linked to you?? ???
millerina
Thanks Millerina - I had noticed this before but but I never found anybody that matched in. Of course, Alice's mother could have been a Miss De Beauvoir but then I would expect to find that marriage, but haven't. The name and district link make this a seductive lead though. Thank you.
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Hi Hack
Just in case E A Butler turns out to be connected. Here he is in 1891.
RG12/126 Folio: 239 page: 5
39 Ashley Road, St Mary Islington
Edward Albert BUTLER Head 46 Alton Hampshire Teach (mathematics & science) & Author (Entomology)
Lucy BUTLER wife 39 India
Marguerita Lucy BUTLER dau 12 Hastings Sussex Scholar
Constance Emily BUTLER dau 10 Hastings Sussex Scholar
Frank BUTLER son 9 Hastings Sussex Scholar
Edith Mary BUTLER dau 7 Holloway London Scholar
Grace BUTLER dau 6 Holloway London Scholar
Joseph Elijah BUTLER father Widower 72 Alton Hampshire Retired Bookseller
Arthur Vincent BROOK boarder 15 Holloway London Scholar
Frederick James SCHOFIELD boarder 13 Huddersfield Yorkshire Scholar
Mary SELLENS servant 31 Sedlescomb Sussex Nurse domestic
Rebecca FULLER servant 20 Poplar London General domestic servant
Martha H J GOLD servant 14 Kentishtown London General domestic servant
Lady Letitia De Beauvoir nee Mann was born (between 1817 and 1821 depending on which census) in Denver, Norfolk. She died in Paddington March Qtr 1895. Her husband died before 1871 as she stated as a widow and visiting Eliza Mosse in Westminister. In 1881 she is boarding with Sarah J French in St Luke London. Sarah's maiden name was Mann and was stated as a servant to Letitia's mother in the 1861 census. In 1891 she was boarding with Rosa C Hughes in Paddington.
Cheers
Genni
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Thank you very much Genni. I really could not find him. This is obviously the Butler of Tollington Park School - perhaps he is a brother of Alice? [the right sort of age]. Now I shall have to look to see if I can find Joseph Elijah with a daughter called Alice. :)
Later - very easy to track J.E. Butler through the censuses to 1861 - his age and place of birth being absolutely consistent [an ideal sort of ancestor for someone]. However, not a trace of Alice Frances in any of them so one must conclude that the shared surname is a coincidence or that the relationship is more distant. :'(
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They are a frustrating lot Hack!
I thought that the 1881 family of doctor Thomas E Butler might fit in since the children were born in S Africa and some of the names look familier. No such luck though!
May be the 1851 will solve it all for you ;)
What did you mean by "Death of Alice Riley - maiden name Alice Frances Butler - died 20 Mar 1943 - age 73 years & 7 months - born October 1869, England. Husband's name Charles Riley [died 1942]. You will already have spotted a error in calculation in her exact age at date of death!" ?
Her death looks spot on to me.... ???
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It is the months. October to March 20 cannot be more than 5 months - I just noted the odd arithmetic. I will take another look at Dr. Thomas E Butler but I am sure that I have already done so, perhaps more than once as my wife's cousin has been toying with for a couple of years now but it was only last week that he obtained the death record. Thanks for your interest and input. :)
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I suppose I could argue for a generous 6 if she was born early October but I suspect I made the same error as the obit writer :-[
I blame the tablets ;)
Good luck!
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Hi Hack
There is a marriage on freeBDM for Alice Frances Butler - Jun 1892.
BUTLER Alice Frances Maidstone 2a 1240
Needless to say the complete page hasn't been keyed so missing at least one husband. I understood that Kent had all their marriages to 2002 online - so I know not what I am doing incorrectly, but I cannot find the above lady in their data base.
http://extranet3.kent.gov.uk/sp/rois/marriagesearch.cfm
I don't know if you saw in 1891 - Alice F Butler born Leeds, Kent (Age 27) - niece - living with James and Frances Page.
The same lady is on 1881 and 1871 - but the F is missing from her name.
This is presumably her birth 1864 March
BUTLER, Alice Frances Hollingbourne Kent 2a 557
And I hope she is the one you are looking for, but could simply be a namesake.
Trish
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Trish - I had to discard that Alice - the one born Kent for one reason - one sees many people who lie about their ages but their birthday is always correct, not the year but the day. The difference of 5 years was completely acceptable, as I said before but the not the difference in month of birth. I say that being aware that the month of birth is not on BMD but births in October would 99% of the time be registered in the December quarter. Thanks for your input - I might yet come back to that but I am now waiting for some reaction from my wife's cousin.
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Strange - the cousin replied today having just received the actual death certificate for Alice. She was born in Bristol so that makes the Cheltenham connection more likely and perhaps there was a father who was a doctor in Cheltenham - the original tale which I was given a year ago. :-[
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Do let us know when you find her - as I am sure you willl
:) :)
Trish
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Trish - I had to discard that Alice - the one born Kent for one reason - one sees many people who lie about their ages but their birthday is always correct, not the year but the day. The difference of 5 years was completely acceptable, as I said before but the not the difference in month of birth. I say that being aware that the month of birth is not on BMD but births in October would 99% of the time be registered in the December quarter. Thanks for your input - I might yet come back to that but I am now waiting for some reaction from my wife's cousin.
I wouldn't say that it's ALWAYS the case that birthdays are correct to the day. I know of one that is precisely 3 months off, although it is true that the day of the month is the same (my example is from 1893).
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Hello Hackstaple,
I am researching Charles Riley, whom I believe to my great-grandfather. What I can't find is his birth on Saint Helena Island around the right date, but I did find a John Charles Riley born on St Helena on 16 February 1857, and wondered if you knew if this was the husband of Alice Frances Butler? If so, later in life it would seem he started using Charles as his first name.
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Hello Hackstaple,
I am researching Charles Riley, whom I believe to my great-grandfather. What I can't find is his birth on Saint Helena Island around the right date, but I did find a John Charles Riley born on St Helena on 16 February 1857, and wondered if you knew if this was the husband of Alice Frances Butler? If so, later in life it would seem he started using Charles as his first name.
I am afraid that all of my efforts to find the exact baptismal record of Charles Riley have failed and I have had contact with another descendant who has also struck out. However the Charles Riley who left St. Helena about 1880 and the one who married Alice Frances Butler in Cape Town are one and the same. Eventually we settled on John Charles Riley and his father John born about 1836. That John was the son of the invalided soldier Charles who married the slave Mary Sam before she was emancipated. It is fairly certain from the DNA records of my own children that Mary came from Madagascar and was of eventual Malysian origin. . Charles became a significant trader in Bechuanaland and founded the town of Maun and had a hotel, store and garage there which devolved on his son Charles Harry de Bouveoir Riley who made the hotel a mecca for hunters visiting Ngamiland. That Riley was always known as Harry. There were other children. By his first marriage to a woman, whose name is lost, James (Jim) Riley a hunting guide and road surveyor and Katherine (Kath) who married and lived in Pretoria. (I married Jim's daughter). From his union with Alice Butler there came Cecil Myer, Harry, Ernest and Isobel Violet. Cecil ran Riley's Departmental Store in Mafeking. Ernest stayed in Cape Town. Violet married a Mr. Olley and they moved to Fort Victoria where they ran a store. That family now live in in Suffolk from where the original Olley came.