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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tipperary => Topic started by: Hilaryanne on Friday 14 October 05 16:21 BST (UK)
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Is Loughmore the same as Loughmoe n and s?
I have a catholic marriage there, how can I find information about it?
Thanks so much
Hilary
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Hi Hilary,
Yes. Loughmore and Loughmoe are one and the same place. Loughmoe is the older version of the placename, coming from the Irish (Gaelic) Luach Magh. Magh means a plain. Lough does not, in this instance, refer to a lake. There is no lake in Loughmore, just the river Suir.
Older people, when speaking with affection about the place often refer to it by the older name which they pronounce 'Lokemah' (phonetically), e.g. 'How are ye all in Loughmoe?
These confusions are caused by the crude anglicisations of Irish placenames by the English authorities in the 19th century. Brian Friel's play 'Translations' treats of this topic.
Who are your Loughmore relatives? I come from the next parish though I now live in Dublin. My mother and paternal grandmother were from Loughmore.
Would you like a poem about the village? Let me know.
Bijou
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Hi Bijou
Thanks for your informative note. I would love to read a poem about Loughmore.
The marriage I am interested in is between John Byrne and Anne Gleeson in Loughmore Tipperary in 1847. I would like to know John and Anne's parents names if possible.
Thanks so much
Hilary
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Hi Hilary,
Thanks for your e-mail. Gleeson is quite a common name in Loughmore. There are several families still there. Byrne, however would be an unusual name traditionally in that area. It is more associated with the Dublin/Wicklow region. However, Byrnes can pop up all over Ireland.
If you contact the Tipperary Family History Research centre in Tipperary town they should be able to help you with the details about the parents. They are at www.tfhr.org. They hold all the records for the Catholic Archdiocese of Cashel and Emly to which Loughmore belongs. They charge a fee. Or you could contact the Parish Priest at the Parochial House, Loughmore, Templemore, Co.Tipperary and he might look up the records for you.
Here comes the poem. I don't know who wrote it. My mother used to recite it.
It's a Tipperary village and it nestles on a hill,
In a land bereft of tillage lacking food to feed the mill,
And the waters of the river through the rocks and pebbles roar
As they circumvent and quiver in their travels by Loughmore.
There's a castle standing stately, telling tales of days gone by,
But to ruin it has gone greatly, nature tells the reason why.
It's a building grey and lonesome from the tower to the floor,
But it once was gay and handsome, ornamenting fair Loughmore.
The barrack walls are tumbed down, now changed the scene of old.
Where England's crown was to be found, now floats green,white and gold.
And here's a health to those who fought and drove them from our shores,
And to every gallant Irishman from Blarney to Loughmore.
The village decks the hillside with a restingplace close by,
The home of age and pride and youth who thought it well to die,
To leave this world of grief and woe for that eternal shore
Which may be up or down below but far from fair Loughmore.
I don't know why the author said 'bereft of tillage' as Loughmore is a very fertile place. I have one other verse from another poem where Loughmore is mentioned.
The sweet silvery Suir with its current so pure,
Laughing and sparkling by storied Loughmore,
And on through the valley,twixt beech tree and salley,
To join its fair sister the beautiful Nore.
There is a Loughmore website with some pictures of the Purcell castle. Someone in Australia has transcribed the inscriptions from the headstones in the churchyard and they are online. Try typing in Parish of Loughmore and Castleiney Graveyard and it should come up.
Good luck,
Bijou.
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I was interested that you (Bijou) mentioned the Brian Friel play, Translations, as I've just seen the National Theatre touring production in Southampton; this play is so informative for anyone researching Irish history. Did you enjoy it, I loved it.
Mags
Sorry to go off the topic slightly!
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Hi Mags,
I have just had a rapid look at this thread. I could see little need for you to apologise. This is what RootsChat is all about. It is mixture of genealogical research, a bit of banter and general chit chat. The contributors to the Irish threads seem to like this formula although they could be posting matters irrelevent to genealogy at the Lighter Side or Even Lighter Side. Many people appear to read the Irish threads for the humour that they contain. It is great to see members, like yourself, who have joined in the past few months getting involved. I hope you are enjoying RootsChat, are recommending it to your friends and if you have a library near you pop a poster in and ask one of the librarians to display it on a board.
Good Luck with your research, Chris
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Hi Chris,
Thank you so much for your kind words.
Rootschat is great; I have told several people about it. It's only been recent weeks I've had time to post any messages - one of the advantages of temporarily not going out to work!
Cheers,
Mags
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Hello
I'm in South Australia and have been doing research for 10 years now. Loughmore is a totally separate place from the other places with similar spelling.
How do I know? Because my gggrandparents, Patrick Brophy and Mary Fogarty married in the village church at Loughmore in 1816.
My younger sister came back here after a holiday in Ireland about 2 months ago, and she went to Loughmore. She tells me it is not really a town, just a very small village, but very colourful and pretty.
Regards
Trinkleberry.
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Hi, Bijou here in Dublin. Loughmore County Tipperary and Loughmoe County Tipperary are one and the same place, the latter being the more ancient spelling which has now fallen into disuse. All old maps and historical references to the parish in old texts spell the parish as Loughmoe. Obviously there are other townlands in Ireland also called Loughmore as Loch Mor (big lake ) would be an obvious topographical description. Loughmore Co.Tipperary,coming from Luach Magh/Loughmoe does not refer to a lake. Luach Magh is on all the signposts along with the English version.
I don't think anyone ever claimed it was a town. Please believe me. I know my Loughmore.
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Seasons Greetings to everyone on this thread.
What a great start to the Festive Season with a couple of brilliant messages from bijou and twinkleberry. They almost made Loughmore come to life I look forward to reading many more messages like this in 2006.
Keep sending those friendly helpful messages, Chris 8)
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Seasons Greetings to you too, Christopher.
Will probably be too busy to do much rootschatting the next two weeks, what with all the festivities etc, but hope you have a most convivial time wherever you may spend Christmas.
Cheers
Mags
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Thanks for the Good Wishes for Christmas Mags. Remember to keep a seat at the table for the absent guest. I regret to say I am one of the many people who spend a lonely Christmas on their own. I have grown to hate this really stupid time of year. It must now be the lengthiest Birthday Party in existence running from August to early January. It is so commercialised and no longer the simple event it once was just over 2000 year ago when Our Lord Jesus was born in a stable in Bethlehem. Here is a tune, which I have not heard before, for that lovely hymn "Away in a Manger" http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/a/w/awaymang.htm
LATE NEWS An American Friend, resident in London, modelling at the moment in Nigeria is flying over from there to spend Christmas with me.
All the best Chris
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For those interested in Loughmore, this may be useful:
http://www.freesurnamesearch.com/search/ireland/tip.html
Scroll down till you get to Loughmoe East and West.
Cheers,
Mags
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Dear all,
My direct line ancestors came from Loughmore. They are Andrew Fogarty and Margaret Woodlock, who emigrated with family to Australia in the 1850's. My brick wall is Andrew's parents and siblings. All I have is their emigration record that says John and Mary, dead. By looking at the sponsors at their children's baptisms, that are shown below, he may have had at least one sister.
Michael Woodlock
William Woodlock
Mary Woodlock
Patrick Woodlock
Judith Woodlock
Judy Cahill
Julianne or July Ann ( no last name given)
Martin Dwyer
Winnifred Dwyer (appears to be wife of Martin)
Catherine Fogarty
Patrick Maher
Ellen Carroll
Alicia Ryan
There was a James Fogarty, same parents on emigration list for Tipperary to australia, that is a possibility.
Any help would be appreciated
Carol D
Melbourne Australia
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I may have a little bit about your Fogartys. I have Martin Maher b. 11/11/1811. One baptismal sponsor was Catherine Fogarty. Martin later married an Anne/Nancy Fogarty in 1827.
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Loughmoe East, na-Cealla-beaga, not given.
Loughmoe, luachma, not given.
Loughmoe, luaghmhagh, luach-mhagh, prize plain or plain of reward.
Loughmore,(Tipperary) lough-moe, luachmhagh, the plain of the reward or the prize field.
Loughmore,(Tipperary) luachma, not given.
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Yes. Loughmore and Loughmoe are one and the same place. Loughmoe is the older version of the placename, coming from the Irish (Gaelic) Luach Magh. Magh means a plain. Lough does not, in this instance, refer to a lake. There is no lake in Loughmore, just the river Suir......
I came upon this site a bit too late to join in this discussion, however I agree with bijou.
I have relatives in the village and have spent many happy times there.
I was last there in June '07 and will be back there in '09.
There has always been confusion about the old and new spelling, except among the local people.
I find it amusing as it often allows the locals to remain undisturbed.
It has always been a hard-working agricultural village, not a tourist place at all.
The Purcell or Loughmoe Castle, (I have seen both names used) where I played with my cousins as a child, is on private land. There is one Church (R.C.) one school, one pub, one small shop. Nowhere to stay, unless you want to improve your fiddle playing at Fiddler's Retreat.
I have a DVD made from a video all about life in Loughmore and Castleiney. It was filmed by a local about 15 years ago, and has a young lady telling the story of the Loughmore/ Luach Mhagh name. She then sings a sean-nos song about the Cormack Brothers, 2 local brothers wrongfully executed in 1858, who are now buried in Loughmore Churchyard.
If there is still any doubt about the name, please read this:
http://www.tipperarylibraries.ie/local_studies/loughmore.shtml
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The plain of the prize or reward is the correct translation of Luachma. As years rolled by and the English could not pronounce Luachma the nearest they could get was Loughmore and it stuck.
Regards.
Tom.
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Yes Tom you are right, that was the case with most place-names in Ireland.
Since the English took it upon themselves to govern Ireland, and the speaking of the Irish language was outlawed for part of that time, most names were anglicized. :)
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I would like to get a copy of the recording of the song you refer to in your post. I have an interest as I have a song which was handed down through my family regarding the same Cormack Brothers. I would be grateful if you could send me a mail or a contact number for anyone who has it. Joe
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I have just returned from a week in Loughmoe (Loughmore). On last Tuesday, 2/17/09 I walked nearly the entire distance of the old road up from Thurles to Loughmoe. I was tracing the several local townlands of my own heritage. I am the first of the line to return since the famine departure. I hail from Hayes, Finigan, Ryan, and Maher. I now have firm paper record back to circa 1790 in these townlands. I met for hours with Monsignor Maurice Dooley of the local parish who gave me a wealth of history and church record.
Regarding the village name, as we walked north on the old road we found this sign:
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/ireland/100_3484.jpg)
As we reach near to Loughmoe Castle, we found this sign:
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/ireland/100_3509.jpg)
BTW, the local (only) pub recently changed names. It was Loughmore Inn for years, but is now Stapleton's bar. Exceptionally friendly people.
I have been unable to locate any date information about the old, stone Loughmoe Abbey in the cemetery of the current local church.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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I may have a little bit about your Fogartys. I have Martin Maher b. 11/11/1811. One baptismal sponsor was Catherine Fogarty. Martin later married an Anne/Nancy Fogarty in 1827.
I have a little more about Maher. My G-G-G-Grandfather was Pierce Hayes from circa 1790 in Clogheraily townland of Loughmoe East. In 1811 he married Margaret Maher of neighboring Killanigan townland. Son William married a Margaret Ryan. Their son Pierce Hayes 1842 emigrated to Massachusetts at famine time. In 1862 he married a Johanna Finigan who had also emigrated from Clogheraily. Eventually down to me.
I met at length on 2/17/09 with Monsignor Maurice Dooley of the parish. He has a wealth of records and he gave me a copy of an old map of the townland boundaries in this parish.
Parick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Monsignor Maurice Dooley
Yes, Maurice is very interested in local history. I have had a long discussion with him about one of my ancestors, Jeremiah Grant, (http://www.grantonline.com/grant-family-genealogy/Tipperary/Moyne/jeremiah_grant.htm) a famous (by Irish standards) highwayman who was eventually hanged in 1816
Grants of Loughmore (http://www.grantonline.com/grant-family-genealogy/Tipperary/Loughmore/loughmore-grants.htm) has some information
and this has information on the Lloyds of Lisheen Castle, (http://www.grantonline.com/grant-family-genealogy/Tipperary/Moyne/lisheen-moyne.htm) local landlords
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I also was very confused regarding Loughmore and Loughmoe but from the helpful answers I understand it better now. To further add to my confusion I had been looking for a place known as "The Islands" which I now understand is in the townland of Clogharaily which is in Loughmoe. I am interested in Cormack's and Cahill's from this area.
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Ah, Stawell, now we're getting VERY close. On the eastern side of Loughmore there are perhaps 15 or 20 'townland' units. Among those are Clogharailymore and Clogharailybeg (meaning upper and lower respectively, you have to see the local terrain to understand) (I've seen them spelled a variety of ways). Each of these townlands has perhaps 5 families. Clogharailymore is further subdivided in that its western portion is/was known as "Old Bawn" and its eastern portion known as "The Islands". I have ancestors born in both. I think The Islands currently has only two families and I've had tea at both houses in 2010. I can't prove it on paper, but I believe I am related to both of these two families. One of the two is an active local historian and she might be able to help you track the names and data that you have. I'd be happy to chat further off-line and to share maps, contacts, etc. Contact me at:
(*)Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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BTW, Stawell, I don't have either Cormack or Cahill listed in any of my known ancestry. I presume you are fully read up on the local story of the Cormack Brothers and their current tomb at the Loughmore Cemetery. While in Ireland last year, I purchased a wonderful book which outlines the complete event history in detail. GUILTY OR INNOCENT by Nancy Murphy.
http://www.amazon.com/Guilty-Innocent-Brothers-Trial-Execution-Exhumation/dp/0946327203
The 'event' took place further off in Loughmore west, but I'm not certain where the Cormack family lived at the time. The brothers were farm/estate laborers at the time. The event estate is in the west, but the Cormack family itself could have lived in the east. (east and west referring to Loughmore's division by the River Suir). Realize that the local population was then perhaps 5 or 6 times what it is today.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Wondering is someone can enlighten me. I have ancestors who came to Australia in 1850. The immigration records state that they came from LoughMAGH - is this just another interpretation of Loughmore/Loughmoe??? I cannot fine Loughmagh on any map and am assuming that this was just incorrect spelling of the place Loughmore or Loughmoe.
Any advice would be very much appreciated.
Regards
Julie
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I have ancestors who came to Australia in 1850. The immigration records state that they came from LoughMAGH - is this just another interpretation of Loughmore/Loughmoe???
Hello, Julie. Here is my son on our 2009 trip. I took his photo on the east side of the village center. The photo is in the vicinity of Purcell Castle and looking westward. The spelling on top would be the traditional IRISH spelling and pronunciation of the village while the lower would be the modern Anglicized version.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t61/pehayes/ireland/100_3509.jpg)
If you have records from 1850, remember that most common folk were illiterate and relied on the doctor or the parish priest for any formal document writing. Spelling of place and surnames is a bit of an adventure when studying Ireland so we won't worry about the differences between your request and that on the top of my sign. Another side of my family is from Macroom in County Cork. I have church records from a family of seven children with four different spellings for the surname! As far as I know, the sign in my picture still sits there today.
I'd suggest you browse to maps.google.com and put these coordinates into the search field:
52.756245, -7.819766 (might also require N52.756245, W7.819766 instead)
Once you zoom down to this point on the road, drag in the little yellow man icon for "Street View". There is the sign. The street view photo was taken in 2009 so I don't know the today status. Once you are in street view, start marching westward until you get to the center of the village and have a pint at Stapleton's Bar.
What surnames are you derived from? Mine are Hayes, Maher, Ryan (of course) and Finnegan. Any of those in your history? I have church records back to 1780 in this village with distant relatives still living there today. A 230 year trail!
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA