RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: goldie61 on Wednesday 18 March 26 00:24 GMT (UK)
-
I thought I'd found all my Bertolles in Montreuil sur Mer, but discovered this one today.
Can someone please fill in the blanks and correct what I have attempted please?
Thank you
L’an mil sept cent soixante seize et le onze du mois de
Septembre a ete par moi Cure soussigne de la paroise
saint pierre de Waillois baptise une fille ?? presente
par Marie jeanne bertolle veuf d’antoine retournes (?) de la
paroisse de saint Valoy en monstreiuil provenant (?) des ?
de marie magdelaine ? de la ville de ? et d’un
pere inconnus, elle a eut ? ? louis marie Waso
cure de Wailly et pour maraine marie magdelaine ficheux
aussi de cette paroisse qui a signe avec moi ?? ??
-
3d line: fille...présenté ( should be written présentée)
5th line : saint Wallois de Montreuil ...des oeuvres
6th line : de la ville de Calais
7th line : elle a eu pour parrain Louis Marie Waro ( see the signature of the curé)
9thline : le jour et an que dessus
-
To add a little to joger's:
fille qui m'a été présenté
veuf d'antoine [surname]
provenant des oeuvres
de marie magdelaine [surname] de la ville de calais
-
goldie,
I've added the efforts of joger and teragram to your attempt. The 2 names remain blank, because I'm not sure about them. I guess you're aware that your Bertolle is not the mother of the child. She just presented it to the priest.
The parents of the child to be baptized are un unknown father and Mary Magdelaine ...
Remark about your Bertolle: She's being described as 'veuf' (widower) of Antoine. The word 'veuve' (widow) should have been used instead.
L’an mil sept cent soixante seize et le onze du mois de
Septembre a eté par moi Curé soussigné de la paroise de
Saint Pierre de Wailly baptisé une fille qui m'a été presenté
par Marie Jeanne Bertolle veuf d’Antoine ... de la
paroisse de Saint Valoy de Montreuil provenant des œuvres
de Marie Magdelaine ... de la ville de Calais et d’un
pere inconnus, elle a eut pour parin Louis Marie Waro
curé de Wailly et pour maraine Marie Magdelaine Ficheux
aussi de cette paroisse qui a signé avec moi le jour et an que
dessus
{marie magdelaine ficheux}
{Waro Curé}
-
Thank you joger, teragram and Zefiro - yours just came through as I started to write this Zefiro. :)
How would you translate 'provenant des œuvres'?
Google says 'from the works', but I suspect it means this lady with the unreadable surname was the mother.
Interestingly, he doesn't mention what the child's name is!
-
Thank you joger, teragram and Zefiro - yours just came through as I started to write this Zefiro. :)
How would you translate 'provenant des œuvres'?
Google says 'from the works', but I suspect it means this lady with the unreadable surname was the mother.
Interestingly, he doesn't mention what the child's name is!
Translation of 'provenant des œuvres' is literally as Google says.
You should understand it like this: it's a special way to tell that the lady has been pregnant and gave birth to this particular child. The name of the baby seemed not important enough to mention, or so it seems.
-
Thank you joger, teragram and Zefiro - yours just came through as I started to write this Zefiro. :)
How would you translate 'provenant des œuvres'?
Google says 'from the works', but I suspect it means this lady with the unreadable surname was the mother.
Interestingly, he doesn't mention what the child's name is!
Translation of 'provenant des œuvres' is literally as Google says.
You should understand it like this: it's a special way to tell that the lady has been pregnant and gave birth to this particular child. The name of the baby seemed not important enough to mention, or so it seems.
Is it a euphemism for 'illegitimate' then Zefiro?
I wonder why Marie Jeanne Bertolle was involved in all this?
Perhaps the lady with the unreadable name was a friend of hers.
-
Thank you joger, teragram and Zefiro - yours just came through as I started to write this Zefiro. :)
How would you translate 'provenant des œuvres'?
Google says 'from the works', but I suspect it means this lady with the unreadable surname was the mother.
Interestingly, he doesn't mention what the child's name is!
Translation of 'provenant des œuvres' is literally as Google says.
You should understand it like this: it's a special way to tell that the lady has been pregnant and gave birth to this particular child. The name of the baby seemed not important enough to mention, or so it seems.
Is it a euphemism for 'illegitimate' then Zefiro?
I wonder why Marie Jeanne Bertolle was involved in all this?
Perhaps the lady with the unreadable name was a friend of hers.
In short probably yes.
It means that the child was a result of the "works" between a boy and a girl not married. (that's what I've learned from a quick search)
-
Thanks Zefiro. :)
-
I'd say "born of Marie Magdelaine xxxxxx and an unknown father" which simply implies illegitimacy.
-
"les oeuvres ", or "l'oeuvre de chair" is an ancient way of saying sexual act
.
-
See the bottom of this:
https://archives.somme.fr/ark:/58483/jtg8x0n1z3mq/31018c12-d374-4412-b5a6-250d133f4f43 (https://archives.somme.fr/ark:/58483/jtg8x0n1z3mq/31018c12-d374-4412-b5a6-250d133f4f43)
Reference to Marie Jeanne Bertolle married (or engaged?) to Marie Antoine Retourné.
1752 so 24 years before your document.
-
See the bottom of this:
https://archives.somme.fr/ark:/58483/jtg8x0n1z3mq/31018c12-d374-4412-b5a6-250d133f4f43 (https://archives.somme.fr/ark:/58483/jtg8x0n1z3mq/31018c12-d374-4412-b5a6-250d133f4f43)
Reference to Marie Jeanne Bertolle married (or engaged?) to Marie Antoine Retourné.
1752 so 24 years before your document.
Good find manukarik!
permission to 'fiancer et marier', so engaged and married
Here the name is written Retourné. With this in mind I now can read the name as 'Retourner' in the original post.
-
Thanks everyone.
Here is Antoine's signature from the marriage entry in the Montreuil register, which talks of
'le certificat de bans et le consentement de Monseiur petit curé
de Rue signé de Monseiur Seclier'
and
'ont recu de moy La benediction Nuptiate'.
Nicely sewn up.