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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: MatWilliets92 on Friday 27 February 26 18:59 GMT (UK)
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Hi there, I’m on the search for any information of an illegitimate child, born 8th December 1931 on the Isle of Wight, UK.
Her Father (my Great- Grandfather) was Sidney Sartin, and the name we have for the mother is Lilian Rowena Attrill, although this could have been a false name, and it is unlikely Sidney’s name appeared on any birth certificate.
I know very little else about the daughter, who if still alive would be well into her 90s, and my Gran (half sister) is very keen to try and track down any information.
I’m completely new to all this so don’t know what info I need to provide here, or even if anyone can help, but I thought worth a try nonetheless!
Many thanks,
Mat Williets
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Hello
Welcome to this site and hopefully there will be some suggestions that you can work on.
One is to try the 1939 Register for the mother which might offer a lead or even the Electoral rolls for the 1930s on the Isle of Wight. A surname search could also help.
This is assuming that the mother's name is correct but good luck with your search.
Jackie
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Thank you Jackie.
There’s a lady who’s helping me with this who has come to a dead end in what she can find, and I believe that census was included in her search.
As you say the challenge is whether or not the mother’s name is correct, and if it isn’t that could very well put an end to the search!
Hoping someone on here might have some info we haven’t got!
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Welcome to RootsChat.
Attrill is found on the Isle of Wight quite a lot.
I have found a Sidney Sartin on the Isle of Wight working as a railway signalman. He married Edith M M Ansell in 1931. She was known as Margaret. This couple had two daughters, one in 1933 and the other in 1940.
Lilian is proving a bit trickier. There was a Lilian R Attrill born in 1911 in Sussex, but the middle name does not match.
There is also a Lily Attrill born on the Isle of Wight in 1911. She appears to have married in 1938, but I'm struggling to find her after that.
May I ask where you got the exact date of birth from?
Nell
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Hi Nell,
Yes the Sidney you mention is my Great Grandfather, and Edith Ansell was my Great Grandmother.
It came to light recently about Lilian Rowena Attrill, whom he was engaged to marry before cutting that off.
The DOB I believe from the 27th Feb 1932 edition of the IOW County Press.
There is a real chance the name is a complete fabrication to avoid the ‘embarrassment’ at the time of her having had an illegitimate child.
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Have a look at 1921 ....
Lily Rowena Gattrall born 1895.
The Hampshire advertiser has her surname as Gattrall which gave me the result.
Tazzie
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1911 listed as adopted child.
Fanny Hollis head of family living Sandown Isle of Wight.
Tazzie
Just saw it said Frederick.... But I typed Fanny!! Have corrected.
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Thanks Tazzie!
So this Lily Gattrall could be the lady that Sidney was engaged to marry, and therefore the mother of the illegitimate little girl.
Certainly gives me something to look for, thank you!
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There is a female Atrill with the same mother's maiden name whose birth is registered in Portsmouth in Q4 1931
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Well done, tazzie - just found the same.
Lily was also illegitimate by the looks of things.
Nell
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Thank you Mabel, I think this might be Patricia E Attrill who was born then, we discovered that one and as you say only maiden name provided for the mother but that was Attrill!
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Do we have any other info on Lily Gattrall at all? Any children she had etc?
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Lily Rowena Gattrall married Leonard Cass in 1940 on the Isle of Wight.
Nell
Added: she died 11 Sep 1973, Leonard died in 1969. No sign of any children
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There is a child indexed in 1931 with surname Gatrall (note spelling), mother's name same.
I do not see any later records for her so possibly she was adopted out.
I think Lily is on 1939 indexed as Caso / Catroll in Ryde.
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With so many dead ends DNA may be your only hope.
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There are two female Gatrall/Gatrell births in 1931 registered on the Isle of Wight, one in the Newport subdistrict and the other in Calborne. From the names, one is more likely than the other to be the child you seek. Neither one of them died on the island, nor can I trace a marriage.
It is possible that the child was adopted. I can only find one child with the birth date you gave living on the Isle of Wight in 1939 and that was a boy. If the person you seek is still alive, and their name changed due to adoption, then it gets trickier.
Nell
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Thank you Nell!
With all the info on here we believe we have traced a Jennifer R Gatrall who could very well be the child we’re looking for.
As you say, what happened to them following the birth may pose separate challenges, but at least we may be able to confirm a name!
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I've ruled out the Calborne birth since it was registered in the September quarter, so would not cover the period in question.
The other one is annotated 'Occasional Copy A' which means that it was amended in some way after the initial registration; see this thread for an explanation
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=862475.0
It might mean that the father's name has been included. Unfortunately the certificate is not available as a digital download. You have to go for the full certificate.
Nell
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There is a child indexed in 1931 with surname Gatrall (note spelling), mother's name same.
I do not see any later records for her so possibly she was adopted out.
I wonder if this marriage entry on freeBMD might relate or may just be a coincidence
Mar 1951 I.Wight
White J R (not found a 1931 birth entry for a person with this name)
died 2019 Isle of Wight year of birth 1931 (see GRO indexes)
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Interesting find ladyhawk! Correct (unusual) middle name, too.
If this is her, there are descendants that OP could get in contact with.
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I saw that one too, but I wasn't getting anywhere with filling the gap between 1931 and 1951.
There may be children from the 1951 marriage, but White is a common name.
The possible husband may have died in 2002.
I've been looking at newspapers and other obituary sites but drawn a blank so far.
Nell
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Have you tried the IOW County Press for death notices?
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No, I hadn't, but then followed that up. There was a death notice in January 2020. She did have daughters.
Back to the mother Lilian Rowena Gatrall - she was with the Hollis family in 1901 as adopted daughter, spelt Gatrill.
I'm trying to find if there is any familial connection, but I'm getting very confused :-\
Fanny Hollis (adoptive mother of Lily Rowena Gatrall) is widowed by 1901. Her husband was Alfred Hollis.
By 1921, she has a granddaughter, born in Portsmouth, and it says her father is dead. Her name is Lily and she was registered as Lily R, mother's maiden name Hollis.
Tracing this Lily forward, she married in 1939 and died in 1993, She was another Lily Rowena.
Those names are too much of a coincidence. There is some link somewhere.
Nell
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Back to the mother Lilian Rowena Gatrall - she was with the Hollis family in 1901 as adopted daughter, spelt Gatrill.
Mentioned by Tazzie
Lily Gattrell age 15 with the Hollis family as adopted child in 1911 - Fanny has a granddaughter her birth
HOLLIS, LILY ROWENA -
GRO Reference: 1915 D Quarter in PORTSMOUTH Volume 02B Page 709
Added think this is her death
Lily Rowena Cuthbert age 77 Birth 6 Dec 1915
Registration Nov 1993 Isle of Wight
Edit - Apologies Nell you had already posted about this Lily I missed it ::)
I agree with you there must be a link somewhere of course she may be the daughter of Violet and named after Lily Rowena Gatrall - the only way to find that out would be to obtain her birth certificate an instant digital image is available
1939 there is a E M Hollis born 1932 with Lily Cuthbert (Lily R Hollis married Sep 1939 I. Wight)
No mmn (not given her full name as not investigated further)
HOLLIS, E M -
GRO Reference: 1932 J Quarter in ISLE OF WIGHT Volume 02B Page 956 Occasional Copy: A
Looks as if she married as Cuthbert E M, Jun 1957 Hampstead
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There is a child indexed in 1931 with surname Gatrall (note spelling), mother's name same.
I do not see any later records for her so possibly she was adopted out.
I wonder if this marriage entry on freeBMD might relate or may just be a coincidence
Mar 1951 I.Wight
White J R (not found a 1931 birth entry for a person with this name)
died 2019 Isle of Wight year of birth 1931 (see GRO indexes)
Hi Ladyhawk, would you happen to have the full date of death for JR White in 2019? By then she was JR Snook.
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See
https://www.countypress.co.uk/notice/18150438.jennifer-snook/
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See
https://www.countypress.co.uk/notice/18150438.jennifer-snook/
Great info. Bearkat have sent MatWilliams92 a PM with some info. of possible children, marriages etc.....
Back to the mother Lilian Rowena Gatrall - she was with the Hollis family in 1901 as adopted daughter, spelt Gatrill.
Fanny Hollis (adoptive mother of Lily Rowena Gatrall) is widowed by 1901. Her husband was Alfred Hollis.
By 1921, she has a granddaughter, born in Portsmouth, and it says her father is dead. Her name is Lily and she was registered as Lily R, mother's maiden name Hollis.
Tracing this Lily forward, she married in 1939 and died in 1993, She was another Lily Rowena.
Those names are too much of a coincidence. There is some link somewhere.
death give her dob
Lily Rowena Cuthbert age 77 Birth 6 Dec 1915 Registration Nov 1993 Isle of Wight
I agree with you there must be a link somewhere of course she may be the daughter of Violet and she named her after Lily Rowena Gatrall - the only way to find that out would be to obtain her birth certificate an instant digital image is available
For info.
I confirmed her birth entry from GRO purchased the digital image
Lily Rowena Hollis was born 6th December 1915,
her mother Violet Hollis general servant (domestic), she registered the birth