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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: teddygreen1 on Thursday 26 February 26 20:27 GMT (UK)
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Hi my name is kathreen James and I am trying to find a entry for king Norton school for my nan celia grace Phillips.
It was always thought that when celia mom sarah passed away in 1901 living in allcock street Birmingham that she stayed with her father albert Phillip's and sarah sister mary jane in the street. But in a recent communications with Birmingham library it turns out that celia was a entrant to allcock street school.in 1907 even though she would have been school age .
The entry also states that her previous schools was king Norton school .
Would anybody be able to look up kings Norton school to see when celia was a entrant to the school please or where the records are kept please ?
They do not appear to be in birmingham library. Perhaps Worcestershire ?
Thank you in advance
Kath
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Celia Jane Phillips was bap. 21 August 1895 daughter of Albert and Sarah Phillips.
Holy Trinity, Bordesley Warwickshire.
She would have started school 1900 or 1901 depending on when her actual birth date was.
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Did she marry a Mr Ainsworth?
If so the 1939 register gives her birth date as 24 July 1895.
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So did Albert marry his wife’s sister?
I can see a 1911 census with Albert and Jane wife married 17 years? 6 children born 4 living
plus 4 children all living with his mother.
Address 18 Belmont Passage
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Hello thank you so much for both of your replies . Celia grace phillips did indeed marry a benjamin Ainsworth in 1917.so yes I think to both although its interesting the baptised one .
Yes I think I may have to give s little more info .
Celia dad albert Phillip's was away in the boer war when celia found her mom dead in the courtyard it was said that she died from.heart failure although there was never a inquest . She passed on the 15th dec so we are thinking maybe christmas might have something to do with it.
We were told that sarah sister mary jane came to look after celia and her brother albert who was only a few months old .
Celia would have been 6 at the time so we assumed that she went to allcock school but as stated by a advisor she is allcock register as being admitted in 1907f rom kings Norton school. There appears to be no record for albert .
I can confirm I've actually seen this with my own eyes a few years ago . Whilst at the centre my cousin was talking briefly excited about something she found and mentioned nan. Oh we got that and running away with the excitement went to fetch the book. Now although we were looking for nan and Albert the surprise of the year and the king Norton was overshadowed by the ladies exclamation . Oh my God your not supposed to be seeing this its closed ! It was a big book and the last entrants in the book were under 100 years and still are
So thank you for your replies and yes I think both are correct but interests about the jane as middle name . If you knew more your understand
Kath
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Little Albert was down as 2 years old on the 1901 census - registered December quarter of 1899.
Birth date 8 April 1899 per 1939 register.
Jane was Mary Jane. Possibly said they were a married couple for respectability.
So Sarah died in 1901 and Jane moved in to the Allcock Street address but before 1911 they all moved in with his mother. Assuming the younger children have Jane as their mother.
Is the death Sarah Ann Phillips in 1901? That lady was 33 and yours was down as 25 on the 1901 census.
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Good morning I'm Kaths sister. My grandmother Celia Grace found her mother Sarah dead in in the courtyard of a back to back in Allcock Street Birmingham in December 1901. Her father was away in South Africa at the time with the Army from November 1899 until May 1802. Sarah's sister came and looked after Celia and her brother Albert born April 1899. When Albert came home he took up with Mary Jane and they had three children but they never married even though after 1907 they could have legally. The years married on the 1911 census fits in with when he married my Great grandmother Sarah.
We assumed (shouldn't have done that) Celia stayed in Allcock Street but it seems she was in Kings Norton until she was back at school in 1907. We are trying to find out if she was in the Workhouse school at some point.
Yes Celia went on to marry Benjamin Ainsworth and they had four children.
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Celia's at "3 Ho Court No 2" on the 1901 Census. Can be seen here alongside the school
https://maps.nls.uk/view/228802019#zoom=4.7&lat=4560&lon=1398&layers=BT
Have you checked Birmingham Archives catalogue for any school records held?
https://birmingham.spydus.co.uk/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/MSGTRN/WPAC/HOME
Also
https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/archives
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Hi yes obviously what my sister has said is correct .
All I would add is they keep this up to both of them.passed and the siblings had no idea . It was left to nan to tell them . A lot to have to do first fining her mom , then having to deal.with why are you not calling mom and then later why are your children calling aunt ginny . Then after that two years later she lost her beloved ben . Admire her so much xxxc
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Yes her first entrant we think was 1907 to allcock school but it was only by chance we saw it . The book is big so the last entrants are possibly alive hence closed cause 100 year rule . I can't find out where kings Norton school one are ? It is quite a distance from allcock street in kings Norton school in 1900 so I'm wondering if she was either put with relatives or dare I say workhouse xxxx
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Hi with reference to looking up records this is not available for allcock street school as 100 year rule for entrants at the back of the book. I dont know where the kings Norton school ones would be . I had correspondence from library to confirm celia was in allcock street entrant 1907 as they looked for me because book is still closed .
It is where celia went was she with relatives in kings Norton or possibly the workhouse .
She was quite vocal in telling people that woman not my mummy and a entrant for allcock school in 1907 could possibly tie in with the law change of married siblings ? Or am I overthinking
Kath x
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Married siblings? Do you mean the sisters as he didn’t marry Jane did he?
Celia was with her father in 1901 and 1911 so I don’t see any reason for her to be sent to a workhouse in between :-\ Especially if there was an Aunt and a grandmother on hand to help look after her.
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Who was the informant on the death certificate of Sarah Phillips?
There may be a clue there.
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No he never married Mary Jane (Jane, Ginny). He married Sarah 24 October 1893.
Grace Hines was the informant. Sarahs sister and Mary Janes twin. Grace had moved to Lichfield by this time.
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It all seems odd that Jane was living just a couple of houses away.
Was young Albert on that school record too.
The record should now be available under the 100 year old rule.
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No lts large book so not available . The info we saw 7 years ago was shown on error and once realised was quickly taken away.whem realised. This ess 7 years sho and I now have tried to view again still closed.
The person at the library has sent the confirmation of the listing on a email but also stated that albert is not an entrant at all.
I have asked for a confirmation ie pay to have the actual entry .
It is really the kings Norton part that I need to find . As previously mentioned it may have been to save face etc etc but we have confirmation that mary and Albert never married. It may have been that because of albert rank in the duke of Cornwall light infantry that it was covered up as it would have been illegal before 1907 I think .
I need to say nan was quite feisty and as a 6 year old refused to call jane or ginny as bearnen ( my sister) has mentioned. This cause a few problems for her as it was not taken well so she may have lived elsewhere to stop her from causing potential problems
Kath x
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Jane lived with sarah dad thomas wall in the same street in 1901 . Thomas died in 1906 and on his death certificate stated allcock street .
Allcock street is still there but back to backs have gone along with the school . This is in the digbeth area of Birmingham funny enough allcock street is mentioned as part of the murder of a man by the peaky blinders ( the original) o the man who was jumped because he had a soft drink . In 1898i think
Kath x
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So what information are you hoping to get from this other school entry?
Where Celia was living at the time?
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I apologise for referencing Allcock Street school again - if she was born in 1895, would she not be ready to leave school in 1907? I think the leaving age was 12 years at that time.
I can see from a published tree that Harriet Phillips, grandmother, has not been found in 1901. I can’t yet find her, have you been more successful?
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Sarah and the twins parents died in 1900 and 1906 maybe leaving Mary Jane alone looking after the children Albert a baby and nan a little girl missing her mother, maybe it was too much for Mary Jane. Albert was a witness when nan married grandad although nan wasn't treated well as a child. My mom and her siblings were never allowed to call her nan always Aunt Ginny. I've known about the story for as long as I can remember but not the Kings Norton bit.
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I can’t find grandmother Harriet in 1901 either - when was she widowed?
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Your timeline has different dates there from previous posts.
I think I have misunderstood - you mean Mary Ann Wall died 1900. (Mother/grandmother)
1901 - did father Albert enlist between April and December?
December 1901 - Sarah died
Celia Grace would be 6 yrs old so already in school?
Albert would be 2 yrs old.
Grandmother Harriet Phillips not yet found in 1901.
If Jane did not immediately take over, perhaps she preferred to work.
I cannot see anything about Kings Norton board school admissions -maybe they don’t exist. I hope you can get full details of the 1907 record.
When did Albert return home from the military?
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The library or whoever told you about King or Kings Norton School could they not advise you further on that point?
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Celia's 1895 baptismal address was "2 Co 14 Ho, Allcock Street", her 1901 Census address "4 Ho Court 2, Allcock Street".
This would see her kicking off school in Allcock Street School - she could fall out of bed into the infants' block.
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hanes teulu. Yes thank you for that and for the map. You wouldn't want to be playing out when you should be in school, the school board man would be after you.
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Bearnan,
Are you thinking that she was then withdrawn from school - perhaps after mother’s death and, for some reason, transferred to Kings Norton?
The Allcock School record should show the date of last attendance at the previous school besides the date of admission to the new school.
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hanes teulu. Yes thank you for that and for the map. You wouldn't want to be playing out when you should be in school, the school board man would be after you.
Our nickname for him was the "whipper in".
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hanes teulu..... brilliant ;D. When I was ill I was petrified that the school board man would come after me. You could see my primary school from our house.
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Sorry not hot back to anyone as I had appointment . A lot of info has been provided so thank you . I dont think I've found anything re harriet death or fir that matter her husband john Phillip's which is also a mystery .
My sister and two of my cousins knew celia and through their mothers winifred and Eileen Ainsworth were told some of the events that occurred. The rest of the children who arrived has less memories indeed I was 6 months old when celia passed .
The circumstances of sarah, albert mary jane are well known as they were spoken about quite often. The thing that we did not realise was the entrant of kings Norton in the book which we mistakenly 7 years ago and what I've tried to view earlier this month. I will have a look at the set of records name and post it on here for you all to see .
We were all under the impression that celia and albert were cared for by mary jane ( ginny) .
Nb the reason she was called aunt ginny was because celia refused to have her children ie mom and Eileen be referred to as nan .
Kath x
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hanes teulu..... brilliant ;D. When I was ill I was petrified that the school board man would come after me. You could see my primary school from our house.
I'll second your "petrified".
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For some reason it us not allowing ms to post .
It states
S4 Records of allcock street council school
X 1 infants department 1875 1986 1890
Etc etc
This is at birmingham library
Kath x
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I've tried to upload a photo of the email o recieved from the library yesterday but saying error .
Not sure what I've done wrong
Kath x
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Heywood until Kings Norton was mentioned we assumed Celia stayed in Allcock Street with Mary Jane and then Albert when he returned from South Africa. We find Kings Norton puzzling. I wish I'd asked her about her childhood when I was a teenager. We actually lived with her until I was 10.
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We all wish we had asked a bit more, don’t we.
Could you just transcribe the email -I think we are all so interested now.😉
Regarding John Phillips - husband of Harriet, he may be the one boarding in Milk Street.
1901 2837 /67/1
John Phillips, 49 yrs, married Pudd Metal Roller bBirmingham
‘Pudd’ looks to have been added - puddler.
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Dear Kath,
Thank you for your further email.
Regarding a search of the closed school records, it is a service we normally charge for, through our Closed Records Research Service, and if you would like a full transcript of the entry, we would have to charge a fee. However, we did quickly check and there is an admission entry for Celia in the records of Allcock Street School, being admitted in 1907 (so presumably the junior department) and it gave the name of the father as Albert and the address was given as 18 Belmont Pass., Lawley Street. The previous school attended was just Kings Norton School. I couldn’t find an entry for her brother in the index.
Ancestry have digitised our early electoral registers, and I did a quick search, and an Albert Phillips did appear at 4, Court 2 Allcock Street in 1903/1904. Unfortunately, there were too many entries to be able to track him after that date.
I don’t know that the above will help move your search further forward, but I hope it is of interest all the same.
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Archives Appointments <Archives.Appointments@birmingham.gov.uk>
I have modified this so it only shows where the email come from
Kath x
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This is the best I can do . I actually have requested the proper entry thank you all for your time its greatly appreciated
Kath x
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Thanks for showing us that.
Interesting the address 18 Belmont Passage was the one in 1911 census wasn’t it so children with grandmother Harriet at that time too perhaps.
I wonder if other entries had Kings Norton or just her.
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Are there electoral rolls showing that address from 1901-1911?
Appreciate it wouldn’t show the children.
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On the 1911 they're all with Harriet, that's the census when their 'marriage' uses the years he would have been married to Sarah..
Thanks for information regarding John Phillips.
Yes and I looked school leaving age 12......the plot thickens.
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Can we check that 18 Belmont Passage address in 1901 to see if Harriet is there as we haven’t found her yet
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Not great at finding addresses but Edwin Phillips there in 1907 I think so could he be a family member?
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Can we check that 18 Belmont Passage address in 1901 to see if Harriet is there as we haven’t found her yet
I think Thomas and Susannah Hough are there in 1901 2867/9/10
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Yes you’re right they are.
Edwin Phillips who was there around 1907 could still be a link. Think he was the son of John and Louisa but could be a red herring with the name.
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Yes at other times there is a Joseph Phillips (number 11) , Henry Alfred Phillips (1, back 16 B P) , Samuel Phillips 2, back 16 in various years.
1874/5 - James Phillips at 18.
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Thank you for your replies . We thing the edwin phillios one is a red herring .
Harriet is correct because one of celia children used to talk about her daughter saying she used to scare them so we know harriet etc are right
Kath x
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Yes, I was just thinking we may be straying from the quest.
Annoying though that Harriet is not to be found - although probably not Kings Norton!
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Incidentally perhaps for another time but Benjamin Ainsworth was elusive in 1911 census being at Belmont passage
Could not find him with his family any where but could find a border alice jones who initally we thought was no relation until my sister found her parents so her and ben were cousin .
Eventually I looked upmvia address and found them.named as Jarvis so we are so unsure why ! . It's one that I think nobody will find out why .
Kath
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Some of these Phillips are really interesting samuel Phillip's was john phillios father but he died in late 1800s so not him but he did have a son samuel so maybe x
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John Phillips and Harriet had a son Samuel who was 15 on the 1891census
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When Harriet Selina, daughter, married in 1898, her residence was 18 Ct, 1H, Francis Street.
In 1901 - it is a Farley household.
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The actual electrol records for albert Phillip's go to 1904 I think all alcock street
Kath
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Thank you all for your time looking at this for me and my sister.
When I get the response from the archives I will put it on here for you all x
And if by luck I fond out any more information I will of course inform you .
Thanks again
Kath and berman xxxx
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Morning all just to let everyone know I found harriet year of death . It was 1916
Thank you
Kath x
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Thank you yes please do keep us informed :)
Still struggling with Harriet in 1901. Looking at 1891 there are some young children who could still be at home 10 years later.
William 6
Annie 3
Elizabeth 2
Annie I think is out of the home as a servant age 14 in 1901 but not sure about Elizabeth. She could still be with Harriet.
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Hiya thanks again.
I can tell you about annie . She married a Henry wenspur in 1910 address given as st gabrial parish. Harriet selina taylor who is harriet the auntie was a witness . I've looked on Annie's on ancestry for 1901 not found
Kath x
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I was thinking she could be the Annie Phillips who was a servant age 14 in 1901.
Elizabeth just disappears. If she was still alive at 12 she could be with Harriet in 1901.
Henry W Lucker 38
Jane 35 wife
Maurice L 3 son
Annie Phillips 14 servant
Supposed to be Tucker I think
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I was thinking she could be the Annie Phillips who was a servant age 14 in 1901.
Elizabeth just disappears. If she was still alive at 12 she could be with Harriet in 1901.
Henry W Lucker 38
Jane 35 wife
Maurice L 3 son
Annie Phillips 14 servant
Supposed to be Tucker I think
Hope ive done this ok? Interesting any idea what the address is please ?
Kathx
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I did it thank you x
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Think the address reads 139 Gt Hampton Row
St George district
Birmingham
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That is about 15 min walk now from.allcock stret so maybe xxxx
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Add it to the “maybe” pile!
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Thank you xxx
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Hi I'm been looking at harriet as suggested but still not found her .
However I think I've found her husband in milk street in 1901 as a border in milk street . There are various names none of which seem to be related so unsure if say a hostel ?? But there is another entrant a William Taylor 50 who I think maybe the harriet ( auntie ) husband dad .
Nb I did look at the hayes ie brothers and sister of harriet of which one was a Bartholomew hayes . He had a daughter I think names harriet Selena hayes and there residence was kings norton ! So another maybe xx
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Looking at Bartholomew he passed in 1893 but his family stayed in kings Norton. One of his daughters Kate hayes married a samuel label and passed in king Norton so celia may have gone to the hayes side of the family ie harriet brothers / sisters x
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Hi hope ok ?
Me and my sister are still looking into this .we now have been looking at thomas wall and mary (Ginny )wall .
Mary was the informant on her dads death certificate in 1906 .
The address of his death and Mary's residence is aldderely street which is in deritend so would be near allcock street .
Is there anyway I ca find out who lived in that address in 1901 please ?
Thanks kath x
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Yes you can search census by address. Put the street name into the “keyword” search box.
Is that the exact spelling - Aldderely?
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It's Adderley Street - Allcock Street runs into it (map at reply #7).
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We need a number to know who was living at the exact house on the death certificate
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Thomas Wall
3 back 31 Adderley Street, Aston.
Informant Jane Wall ( Mary Jane/Ginny) same address
He died 2 March 1906.
Definitely Adderley Street, near Allcock Street, I checked Google maps.
Thank you.
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Thank you.
1903/1904 has a John Mitchell at 31 per electoral registers
Phoebe Branscombe 1900/1901 but she isn’t there on the census
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Thank you.
1903/1904 has a John Mitchell at 31 per electoral registers
Phoebe Branscombe 1900/1901 but she isn’t there on the census
I can’t find a “3 back” but hopefully someone will
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1901 2858/30/18
3 Bk 31 Adderley Street
William and Abigail ? Brown and children
Transcribed as Bronn and Abgril on Anc.
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I don't recognise those names, perhaps Kathy will. Something for us to have a look at though. Thank you for the information.
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I'm not aware of any of the names but thank you for looking . I have a look at the others near . By the way I put in the address in google and it's called salty inn so if it was a inbetween houses I'm not sure x
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I was just writing to give the residents at that address in 1901.
By 1911, the Browns were at 2 House, 2 Court, Allcock Street, living with their son, Mark and wife Amy.
People would often move around this type of poor accommodation - either up in the world or down according to money and rents I suppose.
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Wow I think at one point the Phillip's/ walls were at the that address . I'm sure of it x
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Sarah wall passed away on the 15th December at 2 court 2 allcock street which is on her death certificate. Grace wall was the informant but her address was lichfield .
Nb grace hines as she was then is mary ( ginny) twin sister and obviously sarah was the elder sister . It hurts us to a certain extent because cause of death was probably heart failure and no inquest was performed. Maybe too close to christmas
Kath x
Sarah actually was a sunday school teacher at st John's deritend which has long gone
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Sorry 2 4 allcock street x
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Hi hope you are all ok ?
My sister had said something about a green tick on here ? I did drop my phone as I was answering a question and did touch something so if I have done that I do apologise .
If others have thank you for all your information given . Its helped greatly never in mu wildest dreams did I think it would cause so much interest.
As I said previous when the wolsten centre reply you will be on the list to inform you their findings . Can I put pictures on here ? If not I will do what I did with the email and try not to put my email on which maureen pointed out . I did leave their email for anyone who wants to get in touch with any queries.
If you have anything that they hold they are very good to visit . I have seen inquest papers in my time there
Thanks once again
Kath and maureen xx
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Hiya just a update I've got the email for the request of what documents I would like them to search. It's a set fee for every half hour so I'm presuming they would know where to find celia entry in the book as have looked before.
What other things do you think would be beneficial? I've asked on another forum and they are saying king Norton school was not the school that the children from the work house would go to .
I am thinking of the following
Possible records for kings Norton school
If the record from 1907 has address possible electrol roll for the address
Any other ideas xxcc
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Is there any indication she was in a workhouse? I thought the assumption was she was sent to relatives. Appreciate we don’t know for sure - yet.
What about the little brother, he likely went to school too so is it worth asking about him too?
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I think it was cause we are so protective of sarah and family we were worried that she did so we need to confirm she did not .
I mentioned I was poorly well I was looking at harriet and suddenly realise about the various hayes in king Norton. Kings Norton had rang a bell but it had escaped my mind .
One if the hayes kate hayes married a lanr and she had a son called garnet and I did reach out and I think I had a reply but it was not to do with nan .
It appears that some of the hayes went to america and one of the men actually killed and was trailed for murder byt think it was self defence so I may have contact .
Going back to albert although maureen carnt remember I sure albert had something wrong with his hand and my nan educated him at home. I need to confirm that with sue .
Nb we recently have made contact with someone who although is not blood knew Albert ( ie he was his step dad) and I asked cause his step daughter is still alive and the Philip's were never mentioned. It was a taboo subject
Kath x
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Hi I've just recieved this from.other site . I've took a screen shot but dont know how to upload x
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Just recieved this x
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Hiya I've missed you all so very much !
Just to let you all know that I have been to order the relevant paperwork as from a week friday . Been itching to get on here to tell you all. The guy that I spoke to was very informative saying that he was going to have a word to see if they could some how close the closed part ie string etc but I personally thinks it been that long that either they are trying to see whether they can do that or not . Dont get me wrong I love to see it in front of me but if rules are rules I appreciated them .
I dont think they work today so may here tomorrow so you all be the one of the first people to know
Kath x
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Nb going back to the question re albert he was educated from.home by celia as he had a deformed hand according to sue my cousin . Her mother aunt Eileen mentioned it to her x