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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Rowan Tree on Monday 23 February 26 18:04 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I'm looking at a 1733 marriage bond for John SMITH and Isabel WEBSTER. I should say that I'm very new to looking at marriage bonds.
John SMITH marries twice:
1) 15th April 1733 to Isabel WEBSTER.
2) 7th April 1740 to Ellen TURNER.
Both marriages at St. Wilfrid, Melling in Lonsdale.
The marriage bond for the 1733 marriage is dated 17th April 1733.
Is there an error on either the entry of marriage or the marriage bond because the marriage bond is dated 2 days AFTER the wedding?
On the marriage bond it says, "Isabel WEBSTER of Arram in the parish of Melling, spinster, 40 years of age." Is it usual to give the age of the bride? Does this have any significance? And does anyone know where "Arram" is referring to? The only Arram I know of is in East Yorkshire.
Lastly, can anyone come up with a burial for Isabel before John remarries in 1740?
I've found one child of John and Isabel:
Margaret SMITH b. & d. in Arkholme, Lancs.
Bapt. 21st May 1734
Buried 14th July 1736
Both at St. Wilfrid, Melling in Lonsdale.
Many thanks in advance,
Rowan Tree :)
P.S. I've added part on the 1733 marriage bond below. It shows the mystery location of Arram.
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A spinster at age 40 would be fairly unusual in this time period, so perhaps that is why it is mentioned on the marriage. Just as a confirmation that she was not a widow.
Baptism of daughter Margaret in 1734 and her burial in 1736
States - daughter of John Smith of Archolme.
I don’t see a burial for the wife Isabel.
Are you sure you are looking at the correct John Smith in the 1740 marriage?
Marriage: 7 Apr 1740 St Wilfrid, Melling in Lonsdale, Lancashire
John Smith - ye Parish of Tatham (the wrong parish for your John?)
Ellen Turner - ye Parish of Melling
This might be a better fit ------
Marriage: 5 Jun 1740 St Michael the Archangel, Whittington, Lancashire
John Smith - Arckholme in the Parish of Mellin
Ellin Bordrigge - Whittington
Their first child Mary baptised 24 May 1741 at Melling
Abode Arckholme
John Smith of Arckholme burial 07 Mar 1757 Melling in Lonsdale
Ellen Smith of Arckholme burial 27 Nov 1758 Melling in Lonsdale
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Thank you, you're spot on with the marriage.
That was a silly mistake of mine. I think I'd become too focused on the church of St. Wilfrid and got tunnel vision at the expense of the correct marriage.
I've now corrected my tree and have Ellen BORDRIGGE as John SMITH's second wife.
As I'm actually descended from John's second wife, that's quite an important correction!
The wrong John SMITH had a marriage bond with Ellen TURNER and that marriage bond also mentioned the location of Arram. That's twice I've come across this mystery location. It's rather puzzling.
Thank you again, Rowan Tree :)
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What is the local pronunciation of Archolme? It may be nearer to "Arram".
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What is the local pronunciation of Archolme? It may be nearer to "Arram".
I hadn't considered this. Thanks.
I'm going to try and find out :)
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I've looked into the pronunciation of Arkholme.
Arkholme, a village in Lancashire, England, is pronounced ARK-um.
The 'h' is generally silent, making it a two-syllable word where the focus is on the "Ark" sound followed by a quick "um" or "uhm".
Ark- (as in Noah's Ark)
-um (as in hum)
This is helpful to me. I'm dyslexic and had been pronouncing the place name quite differently in my head.
The um sound of Arrum is definitely a fit but can Ark be pronounced Arr?
???
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It would not surprise me if the k were dropped, but I was hoping someone from Lancashire might comment on this. (I'm from Yorkshire.)
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A will of Ann Bordrigge of Whittington, Widow, proved in the Archdeaconry of Richmond, Lonsdale Deanery
Dated 29 October 1749
" I give and bequeath to my Grand daughters Mary Ann and Alice Smith Daughters of my Daughter Ellin Smith..."
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3VC-GYHW?view=fullText&lang=en&groupId=
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Smith Family of Arkholme
https://archive.org/details/chethammiscellan590manc/page/n67/mode/2up
Next image has a pedigree chart for the children of John and Ellen
The three daughters, plus a son William (he died unmarried)
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Well the text may imply that Ellen's husband John Smith was still alive in 1796?
Which seems unlikely.
There is another John Smith of Arkholme burial at Melling though, on 29 June 1770
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5fd1f34bf493fd4c3b5e1233
An administration for John Smith, Gentleman.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ7-SQ1F
Reverse says
October 20th 1770
William Smith the Administrator within bounden was sworn well and truly to administer the Goods and personal Effects of John Smith his late Father
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fron lan-opc
Marriage: 15 Apr 1733 St Wilfrid, Melling in Lonsdale, Lancashire
John Smith - Archolme
Isabel Webster - Archolme
Register: Marriages 1636 - 1752
Source: Private Transcription
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Burial of Wm Smith at Melling in Lonsdale, 24 Dec 1819
Age 75
Abode Arkholme
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/60d1a230f493fd08bdd63ef9
This seems to be his very long will
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ7-SQ8H-P?view=fullText&lang=en&groupId=
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Lastly, can anyone come up with a burial for Isabel before John remarries in 1740?
Is it possible that it was a different John Smith who married Isabel Webster in 1733? :-\
There is a burial at Melling, 28 October 1768, of an Isabel Smith of Arkholme
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5fd1f343f493fd4c3b5e1190
PR here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DBR7-FB2
I guess it would make her in her mid 70s by then.
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It would not surprise me if the k were dropped, but I was hoping someone from Lancashire might comment on this. (I'm from Yorkshire.)
Thanks, Molly,
I'm from Merseyside, which was part of Lancashire but doesn't have the Lancastrian accent I believe we're both thinking of.
BTW: Sincere apologies for my neglect of this thread. For a while, I've been unable to access RootsChat. I was repeatedly receiving error messages every time I tried to log in, which I reported. Hopefully, fingers crossed, everything is now back to normal.
Kind regards,
Rowan Tree 🌳
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A will of Ann Bordrigge of Whittington, Widow, proved in the Archdeaconry of Richmond, Lonsdale Deanery
Dated 29 October 1749
" I give and bequeath to my Grand daughters Mary Ann and Alice Smith Daughters of my Daughter Ellin Smith..."
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3VC-GYHW?view=fullText&lang=en&groupId=
Jon, this is absolutely superb! A very well done on finding this.
Thanks so much.
Kind regards,
Rowan Tree 🌳
BTW: Sincere apologies for my neglect of this thread. For a while, I've been unable to access RootsChat. I was repeatedly receiving error messages every time I tried to log in, which I reported. Hopefully, fingers crossed, everything is now back to normal.
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Smith Family of Arkholme
https://archive.org/details/chethammiscellan590manc/page/n67/mode/2up
Next image has a pedigree chart for the children of John and Ellen
The three daughters, plus a son William (he died unmarried)
I'm about to check this out.
Thank you so much for your help.
Rowan Tree 🌳
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Is it possible that it was a different John Smith who married Isabel Webster in 1733? :-\
There is a burial at Melling, 28 October 1768, of an Isabel Smith of Arkholme
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5fd1f343f493fd4c3b5e1190
PR here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DBR7-FB2
I guess it would make her in her mid 70s by then.
I've been wondering this. It's absolutely a possibility.
The John SMITH who married Isabel WEBSTER in 1733 was from Arkholme. So, parish wise, it's a fit. That doesn't mean it's the same man, though. They could have been cousins (or unconnected John Smiths).
The 1733 marriage and the 1740 marriage are close enough in time to plausibly be the same groom.
I've, so far, only found one child for John and Isabel SMITH. I'd expect to find further children unless a spouse died or if the couple moved away. They are not the only two reasons why no further children could be born, though.
The burial you've highlighted is very interesting. Thank you for this.
I'm going to reassess the first marriage. I really am wondering if this is just a completely separate John SMITH.
This is the difficulty of researching someone with the name John SMITH. The time period doesn't help either.
Rowan Tree 🌳
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I'm from Merseyside, which was part of Lancashire but doesn't have the Lancastrian accent I believe we're both thinking of.
BTW: Sincere apologies for my neglect of this thread. For a while, I've been unable to access RootsChat.
No need to apologise. I think we were all having access problems for a couple of days, now thankfully resolved.
I know for example, the accent in southern Yorkshire is poles apart from the North Riding, which verges towards the sound in Co. Durham. The north Lancashire accent must be verging on Cumberland, which is very different from both Manchester and Liverpool, where I spent time as a student. It is these local pronounciations of place-names which may be varied and unexpected.
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I'm a Lancastrian, but went to school not all that far from Arkholme. It's quite close to the old Westmorland border, which would influence the pronunciation of the name, but I have always heard it with the stress on the first syllable Ar-and the k clearly sounded and the h almost dropped altogether at the beginning of the second syllable, so something like Ar-kome (rhymes with "home").