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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: Kathmferrier on Saturday 07 February 26 18:30 GMT (UK)
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I’m trying to find out about Alexander Mitchell my GggGrandfather. According the parish records of Cortachy and Clova he died in December 1833 shortly before the birth of his illegitimate son James Mitchell on January 1st 1834. The mother was Ann Orchardson. Aside from this passing reference I can’t find any other information about his death. (I’ve downloaded the document from Scotlands People)
In the minutes of the Clova and Cortachy session it was noted on 18/8/1833 that Ann Orchardson had appeared before the session to say she was pregnant by Alexander Mitchell who was living at Dameye(?) Kirriemuir.
On some of the genealogy sites(Ancestry etc) there’s a suggestion that an Alexander Mitchel who was born at Forfar in 1815 is the father. However he seems to appear in the 1841 census. He would also have been about 8 years younger than Ann who was born in 1807. So I’m ruling him out. (Because of the census more than the age.)
I’ve looked on Scotlands people and there’s a long list of Alexander Mitchells and Mitchels who could be my Ggggrandfather. I’m wondering if anyone has any suggestions for how to whittle it down.
TIA
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Probably not very useful but this shows where this Dameye is https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NO3952 - there is at least one other Dameye that I know of.
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Previous thread, to avoid duplication.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=872487.0
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Alexander Mitchell my GggGrandfather. According the parish records of Cortachy and Clova he died in December 1833 shortly before the birth of his illegitimate son James Mitchell on January 1st 1834.
Can you please provide a link to the record which gives Alexander Mitchell's death.
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How stupid of me! I had completely forgotten about the other post.
The info about his death is from the Parish Records for Cortachy and Clova in Scotland’s People. You don’t find it if you search for his death as it’s the first sentence of the entry for James Mitchell’s birth. ‘This child was a born a few days after his father’s death.’
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I can’t manage to upload the rest of the entry it’s too big.
The next entry after James Mitchell’s birth is for Alexander Grant and his wife Anne Orchardson but no record anywhere of the marriage. It looks as though Cortachy and Clova only recorded births.
On James Mitchell’s wedding certificate his father’s occupation is ploughman. This would tie in with him living at Dameye in August 1833 when the Cortachy and Clova session wrote to Kirriemuir session asking that he attend Cortachy as Anne was claiming he was the father child she was expecting.
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Probably not very useful but this shows where this Dameye is https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NO3952 - there is at least one other Dameye that I know of.
I was thinking that’s probably the one.
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I’m not particularly clued up on agricultural practice in the 1800’s but I’m assuming that being a ploughman was a job that required some skill. If you were working on a farm would you progress from labourer to ploughman? If so what would be the earliest age someone would considered a ploughman. I’m trying to eliminate some possible Alexander Mitchells by reason they are too young.
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The next entry after James Mitchell’s birth is for Alexander Grant and his wife Anne Orchardson but no record anywhere of the marriage. It looks as though Cortachy and Clova only recorded births.
Yes there is a record of their marriage. I posted it for you in your previous thread.
Ann ORCHERTSON to Alexr GRANT. 19 Dec 1835.
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Ploughing would be only one job undertaken by an agricultural labourer. In certain seasons ploughing would occur. He would have needed to be old enough, and strong enough to manage a plough horse, or two. He would have had some experience working with horses.
So not a boy of 14, but probably 18 yrs or older.
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Not to further your research, but to add some more 'meat' to what Neale 1961 has said. Hopefully you find it an interesting read:
https://electricscotland.com/agriculture/ploughman.htm
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Yes there is a record of their marriage. I posted it for you in your previous thread.
Ann ORCHERTSON to Alexr GRANT. 19 Dec 1835.
Hi
Thanks
I did check the Free Cen link. It shows the 1841 census record but no mention of a wedding date.
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The marriage can be found in the parish records in Scotlands People. It is not part of any census.
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The marriage can be found in the parish records in Scotlands People. It is not part of any census.
Thank you so much. Found it! I have tried looking for it before and missed it. Looks like the parish had separate records for weddings and births. Possibly deaths but I suspect Alexander Mitchell would have died outwith this parish.
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Yes, there would be a separate registers for births, marriages and burials (but possibly within the same book). Unfortunately, in Scotland, burials were not recorded often, and most records contain little information.
Sometimes you can find in the parish accounts, mention of someone’s death through the payment of a mortcloth.
If it is true that Alex Mitchell died in 1833, then I could find no record of a possible burial anywhere in Angus. There may be a gravestone to be found in a local churchyard.
I have not seen the full baptism record for James, but I would be somewhat suspicious that the father Alexander may not have died, but was recorded that way to help Ann Orchardson and the baby look more “respectable”.
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Hopefully - this is the remainder of the entry.
No more mention of Alexander.
I’ve tried looking at Scotlands peoples virtual records for Kirriemuir parish but can’t see anything.
Also I looked to see if I could find any newspaper articles. (Using find my past)
I’ve had another look at James Mitchell’s wedding certificate in1861. There is no mention of his father being deceased.
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The wedding certificate James Mitchell and Betsy Guild.
Makes this more of a mystery. Was he indeed still alive? Wedding certificates were supposed to show whether the bride and groom parents were alive or not.
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I have not seen the full baptism record for James, but I would be somewhat suspicious that the father Alexander may not have died, but was recorded that way to help Ann Orchardson and the baby look more “respectable”.
I cannot imagine a pillar of the Kirk deliberately recording a falsehood, and it wouldn't in any case hide the fact that the child was illegitimate because the baptism specifically record says that he was a 'natural' child, that is, born to parents who wer not married to one another.
It seems to me much more likely that the session clerk was recording an unusual circumstance which would no doubt have been the subject of plenty of gossip in the parish.
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I cannot imagine a pillar of the Kirk deliberately recording a falsehood, and it wouldn't in any case hide the fact that the child was illegitimate because the baptism specifically record says that he was a 'natural' child, that is, born to parents who wer not married to one another.
It seems to me much more likely that the session clerk was recording an unusual circumstance which would no doubt have been the subject of plenty of gossip in the parish.
I suspect this is the case.
The non mention of deceased on the wedding certificate may be an oversight.
Anne had already appeared before the session in August because she was pregnant. A letter was sent by Cortachy and Clova to Kirriemuir session asking that Alexander appear before the Cortachy session but he didn’t turn up.
I think this is a real brick wall. I can’t think of anything else to try.
I’ve tried to find newspapers but not having any joy. I did wonder that if the death had been unusual in some way it might have warranted a mention in the paper.
I also thought about somehow using the 1841 census to try to eliminate possibilities by ruling out men who would have been old enough to father child in 1833 if they were still alive but there are too many options.
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Have you considered going down the DNA route?
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Have you considered going down the DNA route?
I’ve been contemplating it. But to be honest don’t know very much about it?
Ancestry seem to have a deal on just now. Is it useful as far back as the late 1700 early 1800 hundreds?
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My opinion differs from Forfarian (reply #17)
Had Alexander died in another parish a few days earlier, the church cleric would not necessarily have known this. It was very convenient for Ann to say the child’s father had ‘just’ died. It explained his absence at the baptism, and avoided any question of marriage for the sake of the child’s legitimacy.
I think James' marriage certificate is telling.
13 April 1861 at Southmuir, Kirriemuir (witness names have been cut off- who are they?).
James appears to know his father’s name, his father’s occupation (a ploughman in 1861), and that his father was not deceased.
In your previous thread, I brought to your attention the following Alexander Mitchell. He may be worth tracing through the records.
1861 census:- Alexander Mitchell, age 50, born Kirriemuir, is a ploughman at Whitehillocks Farm House in Cortachy and Clova. Head of house is David Mitchell 78.
(David was farmer at Whitehillocks in1841 and 1851 census too. Was Alexander a relative?)
1871 census:- the same Alexander Mitchell, age 63 (b abt 1808), born Kirriemuir is working as an agricultural labourer for James Findlay at Middlehill, Cortachy and Clova.
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The plot thickens.
I came across a site called Old Scottish.
On it there are records of Sheriff Court Paternity Decrees.
Seems like Anne Orchardson or Grant took one out against Alexander Mitchell. By the time she does so she’s living at Fearn. Not sure of the date she does this but it’s clearly after her marriage to Alexander Grant in 1835!
I’ve ordered a copy but it can take up to 28 days to get it.
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Hi,
Don’t our ancestors entertain!
In answer to your question about DNA, yes indeed it can be very useful that far back, I have numerous links with the most recent common ancestor in the 1750’s.
That being said from my own experience in Angus, it can be a challenge working out where a cluster of matches intersects with your tree. I have several cases where there is a double link.
Happy Hunting
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I look forward with great interest to hearing what the court documents tell you.
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I look forward with great interest to hearing what the court documents tell you.
Me too!
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Hi,
Don’t our ancestors entertain!
In answer to your question about DNA, yes indeed it can be very useful that far back, I have numerous links with the most recent common ancestor in the 1750’s.
That being said from my own experience in Angus, it can be a challenge working out where a cluster of matches intersects with your tree. I have several cases where there is a double link.
Happy Hunting
I think I’ll bite the bullet.
Haha Angus IS a nightmare. On one side I’ve four direct ancestors - all Alexander Duncan!
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So Ann took the “dead” Alexander Mitchell to court for child support. Ha ha. :D :D
Can’t wait to see what the documents contain.
I still believe that James knew his father, and I have a strong hunch it is the Alexander that I identified in reply #21.
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I’ve got some real characters in my tree. Although up to now it was mostly my paternal grandmother’s lot that were the most entertaining. I hope we don’t need to wait 28dys.
Who would have taken James to be baptised? Anne herself or another relative? In some of the entries I’ve read it sounds like the father takes the child without the mother.