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Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: ValJJJ on Saturday 07 February 26 15:41 GMT (UK)
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I'm looking for passenger, departure, arrival records from the UK to North America for single mother Janet Brown born 1867 Liverpool and her daughter Ivy Brown born 29 March 1891 in London.
Ivy's birth was registered on 22 May 1891 with no father stated, and Janet Isabell Brown, mother, occupation a milliner. 14 The Terrace, Turnham Green, Chiswick, Middlesex. In the census taken one week after the birth, Janet is 'married' with the surname of Thompson, and Ivy is also Thompson. Same address. No Brown-Thompson marriage on FreeBMD.
What papers did you need then to embark from the UK and enter the USA/Canada? Would they have needed birth certs so had to travel as Browns? Or could they have travelled as Thompsons?
The travel date for Janet would be in 1891 at the earliest and 1896/7 at the very latest as she appears in a 1897 Chicago city directory, probably compiled in 1896, under Milliners:
Brown Jeanette (Brown & Conner) 518, 34 Washington; residence 666 Park Ave;
Conner Helen (Brown & Conner) 518, 34 Washington; residence 638 W Munroe.
There is a record of a Janet Brown of the correct age travelling on the Gallia in 1893 from Liverpool to New York. Janet Brown, aged 25, Spinster, arrived in New York heading for Indiana (her half brother John Miller Brown had emigrated there a few years earlier). In the 1920 USA census she stated she arrived in 1893.
But there is no Ivy on this list, so was she left behind with family? In US census forms, Ivy states arrival year as 1893 but was she just giving her mother's year of arrival or inventing a year? Who took Ivy to the USA later? And how much later, as she's proved hard to trace in the USA, first appearing in the records in 1907 as Ivy Isabel Caldwell (Janet married Wm Caldwell in 1900) in a list of pupils recommended to go up to Lincoln high school, and a note that she was vaccinated in 1902 (TB?) but not where. She then pops up in Frances Shimer School records 1908-1911 and later marrying Mr Goodman.
In the 1920 census, the first where she appears, she is Ivy Goodman, 27 (I have her marriage and divorce details) stating immigration year unknown and birth year abt 1893. Not naturalized. In 1930 she's [typo edit 39 not 29] and immigration year 1893. Not naturalized (transcript error says she is). In 1940 she's Ivy Plunkett, 46. In 1950 she is 55, and a citizen. The last two didn't ask about immigration dates.
This ties in with a very long thread about Ivy (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=880505.0) but to save you reading it all here's the gist of what we know at the end of it all.
Janet/Jeanette Isabel(la) was the daughter of David Miller Brown 1820-1875 (born in Scotland, lived in Liverpool, died suddenly when in Dublin on a visit). Accountant/clerk/rent and rates collector in treasurer's office, corporation of Liverpool.
Her mother was Emma Woods (1836-1881) and her brother was David Edward Brown (1868-) with another half brother Henry George Brown 1859-1918 (from DM Brown's first wife who died 1864). Janet was 14 when her mother died in Oct/Nov 1881, with brothers aged 17/18 and 12/13. Did the older brother look after them? Or did Janet then go and board out elsewhere? In the census earlier in 1881, the older brother Henry George 17 was a municipal clerk, but she and her other brother were still at school. Her much older brother John Miller Brown was already in the USA.
In 1891 Janet's aunt Isobel Moore nee Woods was still in Liverpool, but her other aunt Ada Matilda (or Matilda Ada) Isobel Wayland (nee Woods) was with William Robinson Wayland and their children in Islington (34 Albion Grove), so quite close to Turnham Green. Possibly one of these aunts took in Ivy until later?
The newspaper article about Janet's wedding to William Caldwell (June 1900) stated that they sailed for England immediately (but there were errors in the article), so perhaps she collected Ivy then, when she would have been 9 years old. Again, haven't found them on any passenger record to N America. Wm Caldwell was a mariner, and a master by 1889 so they may have travelled as crew in both directions. There is a Mrs Caldwell, British subject, arriving in Liverpool 9 Aug 1900 from New York on the Majestic, part of the White Dominion Line. This could be her but there are no other details in the record.
In the UK census 1901, there is a Janet Caldwell, 50 (this is clearly written), visitor born Liverpool, at her half-brother's Birkenhead address. Henry George Brown, head, single, 39, born Bootle, Lancs, collector [pencilled in 'local' and 'rates' by enumerator]. No Ivy though. I haven't spent much time looking for her in the UK, with RC only just finding her birth in the UK. She may have been with relatives (Wayland or Moore), and using the Thompson name or transcribed with the family name.
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From memory ..................
Just a reminder Janet Brown, aged 25 years, Spinster, arrived in New York 13 th March 1893. Travelled on the Gallia from Liverpool going to Indiana.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J6BK-16G
She appears in Chicago directories from 1896 ish
Sandra
Added Just checked and it was jonwarrn that discovered the passenger list. Way back reply 86 in Feb 2024........
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Just read this....... :-\
In 1893, infants were generally not listed on passenger lists unless they were traveling with their parents. Typically, only children who could be considered "able to read and write" were included in the passenger list, which usually required a ticket purchase. Therefore, it is unlikely that an infant under 2 would be listed on a passenger list in 1893
Sandra
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From memory ..................
Just a reminder Janet Brown, aged 25 years, Spinster, arrived in New York 13 th March 1893. Travelled on the Gallia from Liverpool going to Indiana.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J6BK-16G
She appears in Chicago directories from 1896 ish
Sandra
Added Just checked and it was jonwarrn that discovered the passenger list. Way back reply 86 in Feb 2024........
That was brave, ploughing through all that lot!
And a good memory! Impressive.
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Just read this....... :-\
In 1893, infants were generally not listed on passenger lists unless they were traveling with their parents. Typically, only children who could be considered "able to read and write" were included in the passenger list, which usually required a ticket purchase. Therefore, it is unlikely that an infant under 2 would be listed on a passenger list in 1893
Sandra
Oh. :-\
But where was she for the 1900 census in the USA? Unless with her mother on the wedding trip to Canada. And Canada's census was 1901, so missed that one too. So where was she for the 1901 census in Britain?
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Can't see Ivy as Brown, Caldwell or Thompson in the 1901 Scotland census.
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What papers did you need then to embark from the UK and enter the USA/Canada? Would they have needed birth certs so had to travel as Browns? Or could they have travelled as Thompsons?
As far as I am aware no papers were required at all. Passports as we know them today didn’t start till around 1914. Visas came later. In the 1890s, if travelling from the UK to the USA, you could just buy a ticket (in any name you liked).
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So what happened at Ellis Island, or was it just a port rather than a vetting place in those days?
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These may help
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01u8q/
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https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Free_Online_New_York_Passenger_Lists,_1820-1897
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https://www.archives.gov/files/forms/pdf/natf-81.pdf
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https://www.statueofliberty.org/discover/passenger-ship-search/
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Thanks dobfarm. Some useful links.
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So what happened at Ellis Island, or was it just a port rather than a vetting place in those days?
At Ellis Island you could get a medical and you were checked to see if you were destitute or undesirable but that was about it. You could be refused entry for the above reasons but at that point you didn’t need formal identification. Nor identity documents, a work permit or anything like that. That all came later, mainly triggered by WW1.
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Thanks for that info. Wondering how they defined 'undesirable'!
I'm just checking London school records to see if Ivy did stay back in England. Looking for Brown/Wayland/Thompson. Nothing so far.
Edit: no baptisms popping up either.
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Wonder who Elizabeth King was ? a nurse aged 55 on same page 1891 census record as Ivy and mum Janet
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QDVH-VT2?lang=en
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I looked her up and didn’t get far. Possibly her as a laundress in another census.
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Looking at the whole picture with what you know (which is little) & what is commonsense.
Being Ivy was born illegitimate out of wedlock with Janet changing her surname to Mrs Thompson, its possible Janet never baptised Ivy or the church shunned her, then who would look after the baby while Janet earned a living as a Milliner?, last! I think the law would have been made in law all people and children are named on shipping passenger lists both sides of the Atlantic in case of disaster at sea.
Maybe Janet made a trip back to England between say 1896 to 1900 or collected her after marriage to William Caldwell, and being the person who brought Ivy up 1891 to 1900 still had Ivy on the 1901c census.
Therefore look at passenger lists post 1900.
???
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That occurred to me and have been looking for Ivy as a Brown, Thompson, Caldwell or Wayland in the England/Wales and Scotland 1901 census. No success. The enumerator or transcriber could have given her the household’s surname and there are A Lot of Ivy’s born 1891 but another angle that I’ll try.
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There's one fact you do know, that is Janet Isobel Brown travelled to America on her own, then there must have been someone looking after Ivy Brown birth registered illegitimate (Thompson on the 1891 census) and Janet had tried to hid it being known she was a single parent mother by changing her surname to Thompson.
Therefore Janet could have used the surname of that person who looked after Ivy when Ivy eventually travelled to the USA, there is another scenario that because Ivy was an illegitimate born child travelling (knowing Janet already changed her surname once to Thompson to cover up the stigma of illegitimacy) could have used another made up surname for Ivy on that 1893 shipping journey to the USA using an excuse, saying the child was her niece or friends daughter. (anything to cover up the stigma Ivy was born illegitimate out of wedlock (a big thing those days ) which was the root cause of the deception)
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I'll PM you with the shipping manifest. I couldn't see any likely young child listed. Although in an earlier post by Sandra
Just read this....... :-\
In 1893, infants were generally not listed on passenger lists unless they were traveling with their parents. Typically, only children who could be considered "able to read and write" were included in the passenger list, which usually required a ticket purchase. Therefore, it is unlikely that an infant under 2 would be listed on a passenger list in 1893
Sandra
Elizabeth King, who was the nurse in the 1891 census with Janet and Ivy, could have been the carer who took Ivy to the USA. I haven't looked for the King surname on later shipping lists so another to-do job on a wet day.
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I think your Elizabeth King theory has merit as Janet being Milliner in London (and later in the USA as a shared business in Millinery) as a business woman supports a theory of Janet being well enough off to pay for someone to look after her child Ivy in Brentford.
Though Sandra could be right and Janet did take her daughter to the USA in 1893 (It makes sense )
That gap time period 1893 to 1900 ish of Ivy as an infant in the USA, for a business woman Janet who in later as far as you know put Ivy in a boarding school seems the sort who would pay for a child carer nanny or nurse to look after infant Ivy in the USA ? or was it Elizabeth King in the USA.
Janet reminds me of her in this link, she never had time for her kids.
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRSbwRYZd1wEd4ZdbTScyv9jgoAu6NrjRbdkc10vhwEjhSijP6L
To a not very bright census enumerate in a certain need to cover ground of a lot of houses on his route - could have considered a nanny as a nurse. ( nursery)
:)
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We only know that her occupation was a milliner, not that she was in business as a milliner, and only from Ivy's birth cert. Janet didn't appear in the records as a business owner in the USA until 1896. Which of course doesn't mean she wasn't in business earlier in either country. I can't find her in Middx trade directories for millinery or anything in the newspaper archive online for the Newnham address.
In the census, the enumerator has written nurse followed by another word that has been obliterated behind later marks, and the addition of sick. As opposed to a wet nurse or children's nurse, I suppose? She could have been nursing mother not baby, or both. I'll put it on the handwriting section later.
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https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/61265/?srsltid=AfmBOorc4RulJNUq2VnozT9nPGefRrPg1qU8ns6prjXL8EFyG5EFGTsR
https://www.thegenealogystore.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=72
Link below
2nd item down English directories find my past
https://www.google.com/search?q=kellys+directory+brentford+1892+&sca_esv=6398bd030ac1614a&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBGB1115GB1115&sxsrf=ANbL-n51RYT7JGJ1nfxTAUH-0_wE-ZSKtA%3A1771610403263&ei=I6GYaczVD9nqhbIPveX_4AM&biw=1225&bih=541&ved=0ahUKEwiM85CG0-iSAxVZdUEAHb3yHzwQ4dUDCBM&oq=kellys+directory+brentford+1892+&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiIGtlbGx5cyBkaXJlY3RvcnkgYnJlbnRmb3JkIDE4OTIgMgcQIRigARgKMgcQIRigARgKMgcQIRigARgKSMyHAVDJIljDZ3ADeAGQAQCYAbUBoAGsA6oBAzMuMbgBDMgBAPgBAZgCB6AChATCAgoQABiwAxjWBBhHwgIFEAAY7wXCAggQABiiBBiJBcICCBAAGIAEGKIEwgIEECMYJ5gDAIgGAZAGCJIHAzUuMqAH5xiyBwMyLjK4B90DwgcFMi01LjLIBz2ACAA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp
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Thanks for the links. Just need to find the time. I did look at some on the leicester.ac.uk site.
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As a reminder, there is a Janet Brown who could be the right person on the Gallia heading for Indiana in March 1893. Right age, and her brother in Indiana already. 2nd class cabin.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J6BK-16G?lang=en
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I've got all your emails and links thank you, but I suggest keeping all our comments and post on here for other members to see rather than going to emails.
From Original documents
Thinks I've noticed a few things already from page 50 onward to page 62 and beyond
Janet Brown was travelling cabin class (first Class) (indirectly would support business woman theory) and she a had 2 baggage's with her.
If you go to page 64 - children are recorded at all ages, also on some pages just gives the child age in months out of 12 (written like a fraction in maths ) like 9/12 = example 9th month of the 12 month or 1 year
Also on other pages post 50 onwards, the children are listed in family order with the fathers full name (with surname) the rest other family are first names of the wife & children with ditto for their surname under father surname. Or Mother surname if the father is not traveling with his family.
I noticed Janet occupation was single woman but 2 passengers below was Rachel Hamm a Milliner
(I wonder if they were traveling together ??? )
So I'll look for any Ivy's aged 2 or 3 tomorrow but not that hopeful as I think Janet Brown was travelling alone.
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Thanks for the fresh set of eyes although I think Rootschatters (Jonwarm?) did scrutinise this document a good while ago.
This record is an arrivals document.
I’ve just found on FindMyPast another passenger record that’s for departures that lists her as Janet I Brown and gives her ticket number. Only her travelling on that ticket.
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In both passenger records she is in the 2nd class cabin list.
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=896916.new#new For deciphering Elizabeth King’s occupation.
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Thanks for the fresh set of eyes although I think Rootschatters (Jonwarm?) did scrutinise this document a good while ago.
This record is an arrivals document.
I’ve just found on FindMyPast another passenger record that’s for departures that lists her as Janet I Brown and gives her ticket number. Only her travelling on that ticket.
FindMyPast state the record is from the National Archives, Series title Board Of Trade: Commercial And Statistical Department And Successors: Outwards Passenger Lists
Destination port New York
Series BT 27
Record set: Passenger Lists Leaving UK 1890-1960
She is transcribed as Janet J Brown, spin[ster].
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Like other families emigrating, Janet could have travelled first, then once settled, sent for Ivy, so she may have travelled in 1893 but on a later boat? Time to trawl more 1893 passenger lists!
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In both passenger records she is in the 2nd class cabin list.
Well 2nd Class would fitting a middle class shop business owner like millinery and way above steerage class more fitting working class.
Liz King could be the important? if she was a nanny nurse or a temp wet nurse? and its seems to be transforming with the latest info Janet travelled to America on her own
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I don’t think ‘nanny’ was a named occupation back then. I tried searching on the keyword nanny and got a lot of entries for the surname Nanny/ie and some where Nanny was part of an address.
If I’m reading Elizabeth King’s age correctly as 55 and it was recorded correctly, is a wet nurse even possible? Unless wet nurse extends to using bottled milk.
Over at the handwriting forum, the jury is still out on the type of nurse.
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The next thing to do is try finding Elizabeth King in the UK 1901 census or USA 1900 census, bearing in mind Ivy got to the USA with someone 1893 to 1900's, unless Janet came back for her by check shipping lists and its could be assumed Janet was only visiting her brother in 1893 or was doing a reconnaissance for living there around Chicago in her future.
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Good idea to look for Janet returning to the UK after a recce, although her immigration passenger record stated ‘prolonged sojourn’. That doesn’t rule out returning for a short spell so all is possible.
I haven’t had much success yet with Elizabeth King (nee ?) born Red Hill (which is near Nutfield and Reigate).
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Elizabeth Worsfold (father Richard) married Henry King 1855
Elizabeth Worsfold - 1835 - Marriage Age 20
Record Type Marriage 29 Oct 1855
Marriage Place Woodbridge St Mary, Suffolk.
Parish as it Appears Woodbridge
Father Richard Worsfold
Spouse Henry King.
Sandra
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1871 St George in the East. London
Henry King 39 Head. Builder.
Elizabeth King 35 Wife
Caroline King 14 Daughter (passed 1915)
Henry King 13 Son
Agnes King 9 Daughter (passed 1945)
Harriet King 5 Daughter
A possible death 1872 for Henry King.
Henry King 1831 - aged 41 years - passed 1872
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Death Registration Place St George in the East, London
Death Date Dec 1872 London.
Volume 1c Page 256
Sandra
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1881 census 6 Spire Terrace Peter St. West Ham
Elizabeth King 45 Head
Agnes King 20 Daughter.
Agnes marries Thomas Carter 9 March 1886 Holy Trinity Canning Town.
Sandra
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Perhaps this was Elizabeth King after the 1891 census ?????
Elizabeth King [Elizabeth Worsfold]
Marriage Place Canning Town, Holy Trinity, Barking Road, Essex, England
Father Richard Worsfold
Spouse William Henry Gray
Marriage Date 10 Sep 1894
Marriage Place Canning Town, Holy Trinity, Barking Road, Essex
Sandra
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Food for thought..............
Maybe Elizabeth reverted to her maiden name by 1901 census Great Stanmore. Hendon. Middlesex.
Eliza Worsfold 64 Head. Living on own means.
Isabella Westherly 14 Servant.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X96S-K17?lang=en
Sandra
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Thanks Sandra. I'd got as far as finding an Elizabeth Mayne marrying a Nicholas King or A N Other (from the marriage index) but not yet pursued it to see if she married King or the other one. And if she did marry King, whether she was the right person.
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Thanks Sandra. I'd got as far as finding an Elizabeth Mayne marrying a Nicholas King or A N Other (from the marriage index) but not yet pursued it to see if she married King or the other one. And if she did marry King, whether she was the right person.
If that is a 1873 marriage you refer to, this might help discount Elizabeth Mayne who married David George at St Saviours Church Croydon on 29 Nov 1873.
Elizabeth Magne (wrong transcription - should be Mayne)
Record Type Marriage 29 Nov 1873
Marriage Place Holy Saviour Church, Surrey.
Parish as it Appears Croydon
Father James Magne (Mayne)
Spouse David George
1891 census Lewisham Sydenham Hill, Lewisham, London.
David George 43 Head
Elizabeth George 45 Wife
Mary E George 15 Daughter
Alice E George 12 Daughter
Alfred J George 12 Son
Kate C George 9 Daughter
Robert W George 9 Son
Sandra
Elizabeth George - 1845 - 1914 (aged 69 years)
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun Croydon, Surrey.
Death Date Jun 1914 Surrey.
Volume 2a Page 335
Sandra
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Thanks for looking - so she married A N Other!
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I had found the same Elizabeth King as Sandra but did not see that marriage to William Henry Gray.
In 1891, Elizabeth states she is married but that might have been an error in recording.
1871 530/40/18
Elizabeth King b 1836 Nutfield, Surrey (Metfield on one site) - with Henry and four children.
1881 1712/41/24
Elizabeth King widow b 1836, Redhill, Surrey with daughter Agnes
1891 1034\68
Elizabeth King b 1836 Redhill Hill with Janet Thompson
Further possibilities
1894 marriage to William Henry Gray
1901 585/32/12
Elizabeth Gray, widow b 1836, Nutfield, Surrey - caretaker of house with Jessie Gregory, 16 yrs servant
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Good find - just behind you :)
1901 585/32/12
Elizabeth Gray, widow b 1836, Nutfield, Surrey - caretaker of house with Jessie Gregory, 16 yrs servant.
I don't think that Ivy will be found on any passenger list, I think she was a young infant not recorded.
Sandra
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And Elizabeth King may have just been a temporary nurse in need of employment.
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Thanks Sandra and Heywood.
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Good find - just behind you :)
I don't think that Ivy will be found on any passenger list, I think she was a young infant not recorded.
Sandra
Although by end March 1893 she would have been 2 years old. So not a babe in arms.
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Where did Jane/Janet Brown/Caldwell keep nipping off to on her milliner trips :) :) ??
Ivey Browne - March 1892 England - aged 8 years -
Home in 1900 Queens Ward 3, Queens, New York
Ward of City 3
Street Cor Sanford & Camaco Avenue
House Number 336
Sheet Number 21
Institution St Josephs Convent (Lines 1-54 Indus)
Number of Dwelling in Order of Visitation 377
Family Number 406
Relation to Head of House Student - Marital Status Single
Father's Birthplace England - Mother's Birthplace England
Occupation Student.
If you have ancestry - this link..........
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01u8n/
Sandra
ADDED -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MSLJ-V13?lang=en
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Where did Jane/Janet Brown/Caldwell keep nipping off to on her milliner trips :) :) ??
Ivey Browne - March 1892 England - aged 8 years -
Home in 1900 Queens Ward 3, Queens, New York
Ward of City 3
Street Cor Sanford & Camaco Avenue
House Number 336
Sheet Number 21
Institution St Josephs Convent (Lines 1-54 Indus)
Number of Dwelling in Order of Visitation 377
Family Number 406
Relation to Head of House Student - Marital Status Single
Father's Birthplace England - Mother's Birthplace England
Occupation Student.
If you have ancestry - this link..........
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01u8n/
Sandra
ADDED -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MSLJ-V13?lang=en
Good find Sandra
I think that's Ivy - her birth March month is right and as the USA 1900 census was taken in June 1900 1 year out on the enumerators calculations base on her age given by the school is acceptable.
Keeps narrowing the gap 1891 to 1900
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Oh well found, and as dobfarm says the year of birth out by one year is OK if calculation by the enumerator.
Note that there is no mention of her ability to read, write or speak English, or how many months education (others on the page have 10). Wonder why this wasn't filled in?
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Well done, Sandra 🙂
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Oh well found, and as dobfarm says the year of birth out by one year is OK if calculation by the enumerator.
Note that there is no mention of her ability to read, write or speak English, or how many months education (others on the page have 10). Wonder why this wasn't filled in?
Doesn’t it state 10 months for Ivey too? All the ones who don’t have ‘yes’ to those skills are the younger ones - perhaps just a general assessment.
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Yes you're right. And we know our Ivy had an academic record later on.
Wondering if there are some admission records for this place, to see if it's possibly to tie in this Ivey with Janet Brown.
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Oh well found, and as dobfarm says the year of birth out by one year is OK if calculation by the enumerator.
Note that there is no mention of her ability to read, write or speak English, or how many months education (others on the page have 10). Wonder why this wasn't filled in?
If you notice the ages of the children of the block of spaces left empty, were all infant or juniors, thus may be that teacher wasn't available to answer the enumerator. You know Ivy would be able to speak English.
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Maybe try "snail mail" to St Josephs Convent. 404 W 127th St, New York, NY 10027 (Queens. New York) They may have old records.
Sandra
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Wonder if this was St Josephs Home for Girls ?
St. Joseph’s Home for Girls, at Sanford Avenue and Kissena Boulevard, was originally a Catholic school for girls, later an orphanage, and then a home for retired nuns. It burned down in the early 1960s
https://www.flickr.com/photos/30484128@N03/47187662921/
https://dcmny.org/do/d21a0b35-b63b-4e33-864a-4cb8ec091889
Sandra
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It does seem like Janet I Brown wanted her daughter out of her daily life, she was in Canada 1900 marrying William Caldwell and may have met William on one of her passages across the Atlantic.
Info keeps turning up - So! ............................... Who knows what turns up next. ? ;D
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Thanks Sandra.
Also out of interest, I found the instructions to enumerators for the 1900 USA census. I wondered if they left schedules for householders to fill up, then copied them, or interviewed direct. The latter, it would seem. The census was for June 1st but they had up to the 15th to collect all the info. Perhaps the public were alerted in advance of taking note of where they were on the 1st.
https://www2.census.gov/prod2/decennial/documents/1900InstructionstoEnumerators.pdf
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There's a saying with horse racing gamblers ' follow the money ' - I would imagine on ancestry that term could mean, follow where the income, substances comes from by earning a living or income from something. Janet Isobel Brown was a Millinery (though she could have income from other sources) but what supported her in Canada, and Ivy in New York both places June 1900.
As for how Ivy travelled to the USA pre - 1900? you may never know, but you do know she did, from schooling years New York 1900 to later in Chicago (advise putting Ivy on the back burner for now) but concentrate on Janet in Canada may reveal more answers.
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Good idea about following the money.
Janet was in Chicago business directories for 1897, 98, 99. In partnership with Helen Connor.
1900 marriage, in 1901 census in UK.
The next info is in a 1903 newspaper about Caldwell & Anderson opening up a shop in South Bend, Indiana. Her brother was probably still in South Bend.
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The next info is in a 1903 newspaper about Caldwell & Anderson opening up a shop in South Bend, Indiana. Her brother was probably still in South Bend.
To clarify - John Miller Brown was made Deputy County Auditor in 1897 running thru to 1903 in South Bend. Shortly after leaving that position, his obit tells us he went to Toledo before moving to Buffalo New York where he stayed until he passed in 1918. John sold his Park Avenue property in Portage, St Joseph, Indiana in October 1905.
John Miller Brown appears in 45 ancestry trees now :)
Have you tried to make any contact with St Josephs Convent ? This might show how long Ivey Browne was there, if the records still exist or they may be able to advise where to find them.... :-\ :-\
Sandra
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Buffalo, New York state, is near the USA/Canadian border- I wonder other Brown relatives from England moved to the USA or if John Miller Brown had in law connections if he ever married over there.
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Its all in the other long thread dobfarm, sadly no other Brown relatives in Canada or the USA.
John Miller Brown was married in Michigan 1883 (Anna B Herring) to a lady from the USA.
John Miller Brown and his USA family all documented in the other thread.
Sandra
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Thanks Sandra,
I'll read the other thread when time permits, what intrigues me is why? Janet Isabel Brown married William Caldwell in Canada, then left her young daughter age 8 in a school in New York 1900 and then sounds like the couple honeymooned in England straight after the marriage.
Then 4 years later divorced her husband for not supporting his wife who sounded like she had a bob or two in her own right and his step daughter who's mother Janet, his wife did not give much attention too her daughter anyway.
Sounds like it was all about money with Janet Isabel Brown
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Have you tried to make any contact with St Josephs Convent ? This might show how long Ivey Browne was there, if the records still exist or they may be able to advise where to find them.... :-\ :-\
Sandra
I started looking for any possible archived info but haven’t had time for a while. I intend to resume next week - our local postal service is dire so will be looking at any likely museums or local history groups and pop a letter in the post.
AI suggested establishing which order the nuns were in as that helps with records. A job for next week.
I’m not clear whether this place was an orphanage-cum-school or took fee-paying pupils or both. So I’ll see if I can follow trails for others listed there. Either nuns or pupils, to see what it reveals.
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It’s only a guess that Ivey Browne is the same Ivy. Our Ivy was described as ‘of Chicago’ when at Shimer. And before, she was listed in Chicago school records as recommended by her elementary school to go up to Lincoln High School in Chicago.
A contact via Ancestry with a lot of research on this particular William Caldwell and his ancestors thought the marriage place likely to be the local equivalent of Gretna Green - first place over the border - with no other significance.
I used John Miller Brown’s obit to make a timeline for him and it is overblown re his first few years in the USA. Not enough years to fit in all that was described unless a misprint. Perhaps months not years for some of the jobs he did. Later years do fit in with newspaper articles and records.
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It’s only a guess that Ivey Browne is the same Ivy. Our Ivy was described as ‘of Chicago’ when at Shimer. And before, she was listed in Chicago school records as recommended by her elementary school to go up to Lincoln High School in Chicago.
A contact via Ancestry with a lot of research on this particular William Caldwell and his ancestors thought the marriage place likely to be the local equivalent of Gretna Green - first place over the border - with no other significance.
I used John Miller Brown’s obit to make a timeline for him and it is overblown re his first few years in the USA. Not enough years to fit in all that was described unless a misprint. Perhaps months not years for some of the jobs he did. Later years do fit in with newspaper articles and records.
So you don't believe it is your Ivey Browne ???
You are sceptical of the obit for John Miller Brown ??
Slightly larger than Gretna Green............ :) :) :)The population of Montreal, Quebec in 1900 was approximately 1,892 inhabitants according to the Canadian Census data for that year. This figure reflects the city's status as one of the most populated municipalities in Canada at that time.
Sandra
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Just saying it could be the right Ivy but not necessarily, until I can find some admission records.
I recalled thinking the obit for John M Brown packed a lot more in that was possible, so have just checked. Not so many mismatches as I recall when I was trying to write up his timeline. Possibly some things are not in chronological order. His obit was mostly drawn from his bio in the 1901 'South Bend and the Men Who Have Made It' that says:
He was born in Liverpool July 17 1859
Father David E Brown handled real estate of the Corporation of Liverpool and a highly prominent official.
Educated at private schools in his native city and Crosby Grammar School for Boys.
Then engaged in agricultural pursuits in southern England
In 1877, came direct to South Bend
Clem Studebacker farm 2 yrs (so to 1879)
Then for a time at Singer Mfg Co (1879-?)
Then engaged in farming for Thomas D Summers (but 1885 has John M Brown in South Bend city directory as resident in South Bend, a clerk, county auditor's office)
Returned to South Bend and worked for Hon Marvin Campbell as hardware store clerk then bookkeeper 3 yrs
Tendered a clerkship by county auditor Aaron Jones and accepted it as deputy county auditor to 1891 (when Jones term expired)
When county auditor Robert Myler elected, he continued as deputy for one year.
Resigned to be Assistant Cashier South Bend National Bank until 1897
Made deputy county auditor by George W Loughman, where remained until 1899 [need to check this date with the original]
1898 elected to county auditor - term expired 1903
Other records:
1877, June - John Brown steerage, 18, labourer, Liverpool to NY passage.
1885 - clerk in county auditor office (directory)
1900 - county auditor (census and newspaper article)
1903 - after auditor term ended went to Toledo for a few months, then to Buffalo (obit)
1910 - book keeper for Machine Co (census; also stated arrived 1875) - was that Singer Machine Co?
Gretna Green analogy was it was the nearest place over the border to get married ;D
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An Ancestry contact has just found this:
South Bend Tribune
30 Apr 1902
newspaper article
Capt. William Caldwell, of Liverpool, England, a member of the English navy, accompanied by his wife, is a guest of Auditor and his wife Mrs John M Brown.
Where it states navy, presumably merchant navy.
I will post on the William Caldwell request too. https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=880729.msg7531868#msg7531868
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Discovered a searchable database for the South Bend Tribune at https://www.library.nd.edu/database/2657/
Edit: need a sign-in. Perhaps only for Uni members. Shame.
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And another find:
1911-06-12 Chicago Tribune
Ivy Isabell Caldwell obtained a scholarship for University of Chicago
Edit: actual wording 'The scholarship to the University of Chicago from the Frances Shimer School, Mount Carroll, Ill., has been given to Miss Ivy Isabel Caldwell of Chicago.'
She got married in 1914, three years later.
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I haven't found an online university yearbook for 1914 or other online records that show her attendance or graduation, so have written to the uni archives dept with a query.
ADD: contacted various local history organisations in NY regarding St Joseph's convent.
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And another find:
1911-06-12 Chicago Tribune
Ivy Isabell Caldwell obtained a scholarship for University of Chicago
Edit: actual wording 'The scholarship to the University of Chicago from the Frances Shimer School, Mount Carroll, Ill., has been given to Miss Ivy Isabel Caldwell of Chicago.'
She got married in 1914, three years later.
Pleased to see a mention of Capt William Caldwell in South Bend in 1902 - that was a good find. :)
Your friend was very busy taking clippings yesterday
The scholarship from Francis Shimmer School should have been on your timeline for a newspaper article dated 8 June 1911 - reply 30 on the original thread in February 2024.
Marvellous to remember these things from 2 years ago. :)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=880505.27
The other completed thread "William Caldwell" was the one used because we couldn't attach records to the long look up board thread. One of those attachments was the Apprentice's Indentures for Merchant Navy UK for William Caldwell.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=880729.msg7718005
Sandra
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He was born in Liverpool July 17 1859
Father David E Brown handled real estate of the Corporation of Liverpool and a highly prominent official.
Educated at private schools in his native city and Crosby Grammar School for Boys.
Then engaged in agricultural pursuits in southern England
Unquote;
This is looks interesting.
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Yes, a well to-do family but not sure about their finances once the father died young and unexpectedly.
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And another find:
1911-06-12 Chicago Tribune
Ivy Isabell Caldwell obtained a scholarship for University of Chicago
Edit: actual wording 'The scholarship to the University of Chicago from the Frances Shimer School, Mount Carroll, Ill., has been given to Miss Ivy Isabel Caldwell of Chicago.'
She got married in 1914, three years later.
Pleased to see a mention of Capt William Caldwell in South Bend in 1902 - that was a good find. :)
Your friend was very busy taking clippings yesterday
The scholarship from Francis Shimmer School should have been on your timeline for a newspaper article dated 8 June 1911 - reply 30 on the original thread in February 2024.
Marvellous to remember these things from 2 years ago. :)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=880505.27
The other completed thread "William Caldwell" was the one used because we couldn't attach records to the long look up board thread. One of those attachments was the Apprentice's Indentures for Merchant Navy UK for William Caldwell.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=880729.msg7718005
Sandra
Your memory is impressive! I must have missed this entry completely about the scholarship or just forgotten it. :(
Pleased to say I hadn't forgotten about William Caldwell being in the merchant navy. However I wonder if he might have moved to the military navy later? Did that ever happen? Perhaps in wartime.
ADD: looking at the 1911 newspaper article, I didn't appreciate that the wording meant she'd got a scholarship to the University of Chicago. The announcement is a bit convoluted isn't it? I thought it just meant she'd graduated from Frances Shimer with scholarship honours but didn't really understand the information.
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Yes, a well to-do family but not sure about their finances once the father died young and unexpectedly.
Its not just about income but how children were brought up in ways to live and do things.
Far from working class families, where a child would see mum putting bread in the mince meat making to make the shepherds or cottage pie go further. ;D
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Known as the Frances Shimer Academy of the University of Chicago.
This article might give an insight .......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Shimer_College
http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/2181.html
Sandra
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In reply 66 you queried this about John M Brown.
1910 - book keeper for Machine Co (census; also stated arrived 1875) - was that Singer Machine Co?
" In 1910, Buffalo, New York, was home to several notable machine companies, contributing to the city's industrial development "
Sandra
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Known as the Frances Shimer Academy of the University of Chicago.
This article might give an insight .......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Shimer_College
http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/2181.html
Sandra
Thanks Sandra - useful insights and explains the connection between the Shimer College and the University of Chicago.
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Yes, a well to-do family but not sure about their finances once the father died young and unexpectedly.
Its not just about income but how children were brought up in ways to live and do things.
Far from working class families, where a child would see mum putting bread in the mince meat making to make the shepherds or cottage pie go further. ;D
We used to put bread through the mincer to make sure every last bit of meat was pushed though
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Did you read about those employers mentioned in the obit, quite interesting ?
Clement Studebeck.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_Studebaker
Singer Manufacturing South Bend
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singer_Manufacturing%E2%80%93South_Bend_Lathe_Co._Historic_District
Marvin Campbell Hardware
https://www.historymuseumsb.org/campbell-box-and-tag-company/
21 Mar 1920
South Bend News-Times(South Bend, IN)
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Yes I did. It was quite a place for innovation and industry.
All the great and good are in the ‘South Bend and the men who made it.’ book. Is ‘it’ part of ‘made it’ =succeeded, or did they make South Bend, or both? Of course women had no impact whatsoever ::)