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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: namatse on Tuesday 03 February 26 14:31 GMT (UK)
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I have a copy of the Attestation papers for my late father who served with the Welsh Guards during WW2. Understanding these papers is proving more difficult than I first thought.
It is clear that he was present at the Battle of Boulogne in May 1940.
Whilst he spoke very little of his time during the war, he did say that he drove tanks. I am hoping that the Attestation papers will show this.
I haven't attached the papers this time but will gladly do so if there is anyone who could help.
Thanks
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His attestation papers are unlikely to tell you much about his operational experience. Once he had actually joined his battalion, which I think would have been the 2nd battalion from what you have said, then the unit war diary is the best place to see what was happening on the ground. Fortunately some dedicated people over on the WW2Talk forum have transcribed large parts of the battalion's war diaries, starting here: http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/war-diary-2nd-battalion-welsh-guards-sep-1939-dec-1941.27407/ scroll down about two thirds of the page to 21 May 1940. If you know which company he was in this will give you a more detailed picture of what he did during the defence of Boulogne.
The battalion were not equipped with tanks at that stage; that came later when they were part of 6th Guards Tank Brigade (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Guards_Tank_Brigade_(United_Kingdom)) which took part in the D Day landings and then moved steadily eastwards and was involved in the re-taking of Brussels in late 1944.
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Thank you for this information.
The Attestation papers show a number of "Transfers" and details regarding R.A.C. OCTV Bovington.
With this information I am assuming that he would have transferred to an armoured division at some period. The ww2talk link as you know gives the link to the war diaries etc. This is so helpful as I find the interface of the NA is not very user friendly.
Really appreciate your help
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By all means post images from his record here and we can try and decipher them for you. I have no idea what OCTV was, but of course Bovington is the home of the Royal Armoured Corps School and so he would probably have gone there to do his tank driver training in preparation for the conversion of his battalion to the armoured role. In 1939 he would just have been trained as an infantry soldier.
Individuals are posted between units (regiments or battalions), not between formations such as brigades or divisions. Formations are composed of a number of units as required for the pending operation, and so units move as formed bodies in and out of their parent brigades from time to time. For example during the Boulogne operation in 1941 2nd Welsh Guards were part of 20th Independent Infantry Brigade (Guards), but after they converted to the armoured role in 1941, they became part of tthe 6th Guards Tank Brigade as I mentioned earlier. Assuming that your father stayed with the 2nd battalion Welsh Guards throughout his war service, he would have moved with his unit, except when he was detached on a long course, such as his tank driver training.
Incidentally the 2nd Welsh Guards had 317 men (roughly two companies worth) taken prisoner at Boulogne.
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OCTU would be Officer cadet Training Unit.
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Good call, Alan. I can't find an OCTU at Bovington, but given that it was and is a training establishment, it would have been a suitable location for an OCTU. I would have expected someone from a Guards Regiment to go the Guards Depot at Pirbight for officer training, but that wouldn't rule out the possibility of him perhaps seeking a commission in another regiment or corps, hence another OCTU. We would need to see the documents namatse has to confirm this avenue of research.
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it would have been unusual for a Guardsman to commission into the Guards as the officers social status was very different. Saying that if he was a former public school boy who was conscripted then it did happen. I met an ex Guardsman who was the 2nd Battalion CO's batman with the Irish Guards in 30 Corps at Arnhem and that is exactly what happened to him. The 2nd Battalion Irish Guards were an Armoured Battalion equipped with tanks so a course at the Armour Training Centre at Bovington would have been apt.
From another Forum:
On the outbreak of the Second World War the Royal Military College was replaced by the Sandhurst Officer Cadet Training Unit of two wings. These became respectively 101 Royal Armoured Corps OCTU and 161 Infantry OCTU (RMC). A London TA unit, the Inns of Court Officers Training Corps, formed the RAC OCTU and the Royal Military College formed the Infantry OCTU, with the subtitle RMC. Officer cadets of 161 Infantry OCTU were allowed to wear the RMC cap badge, although they were in fact soldiers belonging to the various regiments into which they were called up for the duration of hostilities. In 1942 101 RAC OCTU amalgamated with 162 Reconnaissance Corps OCTU (formed from the Infantry Battalion of another London TA regiment, the Honourable Artillery Company) to form 100 RAC OCTU. At the same time, the Infantry OCTU moved to Mons Barracks at Aldershot, where it remained, retaining its RMC associations, until 1946. It then returned to Sandhurst, while the RAC OCTU moved to Bovington.
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Not sure exactly what I am doing wrong but I am unable to attach the paperwork.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/recordcopy/RC-027033-G3Z5H5-0378b60a-5ed5-497b-b0f0-2f96bf588aa0
Are you able to access from the link above ?
Thanks for your help
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He is posted to be on the staff of the OCTU at Bovington. He is helping to train the Officer Cadets.
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Looking at the records he enlisted in 1939 into the 1st Battalion Welsh Guards and was in France in 1940. If you look at the dates for his time in France he was at Dunkirk. When he got back they later sent him to the 2nd Battalion who posted him to Bovington to be a driver at the RAC school for the duration of the war.
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Thanks, namatse, I have managed to download that OK.
However I have to go out now for the rest of the day so I can't give you a detailed breakdown. Based on a quick read through it looks like he transferred to the RAC in November 1941 and didn't return to the Welsh Guards until after the end of the war, just to be discharged. It doesn't look as if he served in NW Europe after D Day.
Maybe someone else will fill in the gaps for you. I see alan o has already started. You are in safe hands.
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Thank you for this information. As I previously mentioned my father never spoke of his time in the army but maintained he drove tanks. Is there anything in this paperwork that would suggest he a tank as this would then presumably place him at other battles throughout his period of service ?
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Yes he was employed as driver at the Royal Armoured Corps training centre at Bovington after he came back from France. As they trained in tanks he was presumably driving the trainne officers in teaching then to command a tank.
He did not fight in any battles after Dunkirk but stayed in UK. The 2nd Battalion did go to France in 1944-5 but your father did not join them. If he had he would have qualified for another medal but as he was in UK he did not receive the France and German Star 1944-45.
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Thank you all for filling in these gaps regarding my fathers time in the Welsh Guards.
Your collective expertise have enabled me to produce a far more detailed account that I can share with others in my family.
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I don't know if you noted the dates but he landed in France on 22 May 1940 and was evacuated 2 days later on 24 May 1940. Lord alone knows why they sent him there for short a short period of time but as a Dunkirk survivor he is someone to be proud of.
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I am presently researching the Battle of Boulogne and it seems that a great number of personnel were taken captive by the Germans. A very tragic event that he somehow managed to survive.
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I don't know if you noted the dates but he landed in France on 22 May 1940 and was evacuated 2 days later on 24 May 1940. Lord alone knows why they sent him there for short a short period of time but as a Dunkirk survivor he is someone to be proud of.
Alan, the defence of Boulogne only lasted a few days. 20th Independent Infantry Brigade was sent over from Britain at short notice to secure the perimeter of Boulogne port so that the BEF could be evacuated through there in addition to Dunkirk. In the event the Germans captured the area between Dunkirk and Calais so preventing the retreating BEF from going further West towards Calais and Boulogne. 20th Bde were hastily withdrawn by the Royal Navy as they were in danger of being encircled. As it was they had over 300 men taken prisoner. 2nd Bn Welsh Guards had been on public duties in London the day before they were sent to France.
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Indeed so he went on the 22 nd May but came off on the 24th so was lucky to get out of the town at all.
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If you follow this link which I also posted earlier in the thread, scroll down to where it is dated 21 May 1940, and read on from there you get a good picture of what was happening. Taken from the 2WG war diary, a post-operation report by OC 3 Company 2WG, plus a postwar IWM interview with the Bde commander, Brig Fox-Pitt.
http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/war-diary-2nd-battalion-welsh-guards-sep-1939-dec-1941.27407/