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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Discoveringmypast on Wednesday 28 January 26 19:02 GMT (UK)
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Hi, further to my post below.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=896339.new;topicseen#new
I’ve spent the past few days starting from my ancestors that I know are correct, going backwards trying to confirm earlier ancestors in my tree but have been having problems researching.
My great grandparents: Albert Edward Hardwell born 1868, Bedminster, Bristol and Elizabeth Thompson born 1867, Bristol
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1901 census Bedminster, Bristol
Elizabeth, 33 year old widow with 4 children (including my grandfather) occ cigar maker.
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1891 census Bedminster, Bristol
Albert, Railway Porter age 22 and Elizabeth a cigar maker age 23. They had not long married and didn’t have any children yet. (Albert died 1896)
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1891 28 March, Marriage, St Luke’s Church, Bedminster, Bristol
Marriage certificate: Albert’s father James Hardwell (all ancestors found and confirmed)
Elizabeth’s father Edward Thompson, occ a Boot Finisher
It’s from this point I had problems with Elizabeth Thompson’s ancestors and would like help please. Years ago I initially thought Elizabeth’s mother’s maiden name was Hansford but after checking the mother’s death certificate I discovered that was definitely incorrect, leading me to the connection with the Barry surname after help from RootsChat a while ago.
I ordered a Bristol birth certificate for Elizabeth Thompson, mother ‘Barry’ which confirmed she was born 25 Apr 1867, mother Elizabeth Thompson (formerly Barry) father Edwin Thompson, occ Cordwainer-Journeyman. So, despite the discrepancy of Edwin/Edward, it was the only birth record that fitted. (I had checked quite a few births.)
Furthermore, details in the 1871 census, St Pauls, Bristol confirm this
Edwin Thompson, age 40, occ shoemaker
Elizabeth wife, age 39
Rosey, daughter age 6
Elizabeth, daughter, age 4
Edwin, son, age 8 months
All born in Bristol
Rosey’s birth certificate showed: Rosina Harriet Thompson born 14 Dec 1864 Bristol, mother Elizabeth (formerly Berry), father Edwin Thompson, occ Cordwainer-Journeyman.
Also, the 1886 marriage details of a Rosina Harriet Thompson to Henry Wyatt in a Bristol parish record, named her father as Edwin Thomson (deceased) occ riveter (possibly to do with making shoes?) Additionally, the witnesses to her marriage were her sister Elizabeth Thompson (my great grandmother) and Albert Hardwell (my great grandfather).
Edwin Thompson's death cert, 14 Dec 1872, recorded his age as 43, occ Shoemaker and the address was Penn Street. The same address that was on Rosina’s marriage record and the address Edwin’s widow was living at in the 1881 census.
Through RootsChat previously, Catholic baptisms were found for Elizabeth Thompson born 1867 along with all her siblings on 28 Dec 1872 a couple of weeks after the death of their father Edwin.
St Nicholas of Tolentino, Lawford’s Gate, Bristol
Rosina Harriet
Elizabeth
Edwin
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/61689/images/engl0082d_38460-r-1-d_m_00081?pId=39642
Isabella is on the next page
To go further back, I searched for Edwin Thompson and Elizabeth Barry (Berry?)’s marriage but couldn’t find one in the parish records so ordered one that fitted the dates, names etc.
9th June1863, Clifton Register Office, Bristol (maybe because Elizabeth was Catholic?)
Elizabeth Berry age 24, name spelt Berry and her father John Berry occ Shoemaker (deceased)
Edwin Thompson age 28, Shoemaker Journeyman, father Stephen Thompson, Shoemaker (deceased)
I’ve found Edwin Thompson’s ancestry ok, he was a shoemaker (and in the army before getting married - found by RootsChat member) as well as his father Stephen in censuses back to 1841, but it is the Elizabeth Barry/Berry one that’s difficult. All the other information I’ve found when researching the possible Irish ‘Barry’ connection points to Elizabeth’s father being Thomas Barry but the marriage certificate states John?
Prior to the 1863 marriage I’ve not been able to find Elizabeth Berry/Barry and/or John Berry/Barry in a census. The only Elizabeth Barry/Berry around the same age I can find is one in Kewstoke, Weston Super Mare.
There’s a Catholic baptism which matched what I knew of Elizabeth at the time and thought was correct:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/61689/images/engl0082d_37553-r-2-1_m_00280?pId=71436
Elizabeth Barry
Baptism Age, 0
Birth Date, 6 Sep 1835
Baptism Date, 11 Nov 1835
Place St Mary on the Quay, Colston Avenue, Bristol
Father, Thomæ Barry
Mother, Harriettæ Derrick
However, the parents are Thomas (not John) Barry and Harriet Derrick who lived in Kewstoke, Weston Super Mare. (Unless there are another set of parents with the same names but in Bristol!).
Censuses show Thomas was a gamekeeper in Kewstoke, born in Cork, Ireland. The censuses also showed daughter Elizabeth was born Kewstoke. But there’s also a Bristol parish marriage record for Elizabeth to Albert John Searle 1859, father was Thomas Barry, occ Gamekeeper. So this Elizabeth and family is not mine.
I would really appreciate any help untangling who/where the parents/grandparents of my 2x great grandmother Elizabeth Barry/Berry born in Bristol around 1835. Is there an Irish connection and why can’t I find her and her (possible) father John, a shoemaker, in censuses!
I’ve tried to lay it out as best I can with what I’ve found out. Apologies if I’ve made it more complicated.
Thank you!
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Just wanted to run this by you, from the baptisms you posted, have you had a look at the Cahill surname?
Wondered if this was worth following up...
James Cahill married Harriet Barry Q2 1868 Clifton
There are some records in the non-conformist baptisms, 1871 and 1881 they are in Bristol and then they depart for Colarado
Harriet is c1844 1871 census and c1841 1881, born in Bristol
Findagrave birth 1843
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01u6n/
Names of the children are the same as the census return 1881
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Hi willsy
Thank you for your reply and the info.
I've had a look into your suggestions but the Harriet Derrick who could possibly be connected to me had her first child in 1832 and would have been born around 1810.
But thanks again
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Good Morning
if you go to the same catholic baptisms at St Mary on the Quay.
Elizabeth Barry born 13.8.1838 bapt 24.9.1838 d of Johannis and Elizabeth .
Sponser Thomas and Alicia Barry.
Other children Bartholomew 23.3.1839 bapt 6.4.1843 John Patrick and Elizabeth Heverfield and Joseph 13.11.1844 bapt 22nd Dec.
The family are on the 1841 census without Elizabeth at Chapel Row
John Berry 30 shoemaker n
Eliza 30 y
Thomas 11 n
Bart 3 y
Rachel Sanger 75 Ind y
Ann Morgan 40 Ind y
1851 Warrens Court
Eliza married 44 St Augustine
Thomas 20 boot and shoe maker London
Bart 13 Wells Somerset
Thomas bapt 10.4.1840/20.6.1830 at Bavarian Chapel Soho London
Thomas Senior married to Harriet could well be John's brother which would explain why he is one of the sponsors on Elizabeth's christening.Parents might be John and Alice Barry nee Horagon .(John bapt 17.1.1813 ) A pity no mother's maiden name given on her entry.
Just a suggestion
Ciderdrinker
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Hello ciderdrinker
Thank you for the info.
The 1838 baptism of Elizabeth looks a great find especially as the the name John Berry matches her marriage record in 1863!
I've found the 1841 census you refer to, pity daughter Elizabeth isn't on it, but can't seem to find the 1851 census - can you send a link please?
Thanks!
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Sorry - it's ok, just found the 1851 census!
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This does seem like a great find, thank you!
Dates, occupations etc seem to match up. The Thomas and Harriet who I originally thought were my Elizabeth's parents do now appear to be her aunt and uncle? (So there does seem to be an Irish connection still.)
Would like to find out where Elizabeth was in 1841 as she was a child and wasn't with her parents and where she was in 1851 and 1861 before marrying.
Also where was her father Joannis/John in 1851, his wife said Head in the census and not a widow, also when he died. It would be before 1863 as he was shown as deceased then on his daughter's marriage certificate.
There are new avenues I can explore but any help would be appreciated!
Thank you so much.
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Hello ciderdrinker,
Could you let me know where you found Thomas Barry's 1840 baptism in London please.
Many thanks
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Had a look at this John P. Barry, boot and shoemaker in Bristol but born Westminster, with his children
1851 Rock Court, 6, Berkeley Place, Clifton, Gloucestershire
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01u6q/
Mary Ann 14 born Westminster
Joseph 6 born Bristol
and on the next page is Winifred 3 born Bristol
Found this birth reg.
BARRY, WINEFRED ELIZABETH HABERFIELD
GRO Reference: 1848 M Quarter in THE CLIFTON UNION Volume 11 Page 260
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Clifton, Bristol
1861 RG9/1726/17/29
John P. Barry Lodger Cordwainer c1807 London, Middlesex
occ. Cordwainer
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Mary Ann 1851...
There is a baptism for Maria Anna Barry born 18 Jun 1836 also at the Bavarian Chapel,
Bap. 5 Jun 1837
Parents
Johannis Patricius Barry
Elizabeth Aberfield
Godparents Maria and Barto. ?Reardon
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Hi willsy
Thanks for this find. So, if this John P Barry is the husband of Eliza/Elizabeth, wonder why they are living separately in the 1851 Bristol census with a couple of children each?
Also, it states he was born in London, so does that mean he's not connected to Thomas Barry (who's married to Harriet)? It was looking like they were brothers and from Ireland.
This is getting confusing again! Will follow it up, thank you :)
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Hello
Yes Thomas Barry/Berry 's baptism is on FindMyPast
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=S2%2FGBPRS%2FROMCATH%2FWESTMINSTER%2FBAVARIAN_B_1820-1831%2F00345&parentid=PRS%2FROMCATH%2FBAP%2FWESTM%2F0008644
sponsers Thomas and Julia Barry
It doesn't seem to be on Ancestry
Ciderdrinker
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Hello again
Don't be too quick with that place of birth.
It may be that he was asked where do you come from and he mentioned London as he was last there.
Ciderdrinker
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Hello
Thanks for the link, because I found the Bristol ones on Ancestry I carried on looking there. Should have looked at FindMyPast, especially as I find it easier to search on there.
Thanks again!
P.S. Yes you're right about the London place of birth - I'll keep an open mind!
Just strange husband and wife living in different houses in 1851 census?!
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Hello
Yes it is but you have to bear in mind they can't divorce.So if they meet someone else they just have to move out.
Another child Allen /Albert at Soho 10.8./23.6.1828 ,mother Eliza Abberfield
Their marriage is at St George Hanover Square 9.8.1826
John Barry and Eliz Haberfield both signed and of this parish
wit Stephen Morris and John George Leigh.
It looks like she was from Bristol
Eliza Tripp Haberfield born 6.2.1805 d of Isaac and Sarah Clifton Somerset Naval officer bapt 24.1.1819 St Mary Newington.
It would explain the move to Bristol.
Various possible siblings for her but with different mothers
William Isaac 15.6.1815 bapt 21.1.1816 Clifton s of Isaac and Elizabeth Leut Royal Navy.
Pheobe 4.4.1817 Arrundal no occupation given but same parents
Walter Barnet 7.11.1825 bapt 28.6.1826 St George the Maytr Southwark same and Leut Navy
Melina Elizabeth 11.8.1814 bapt 11.6.1820 d of Isaac and Melina Lisson Grove St Olave Southwark
Isaac married Elizabeth Connor 29.8.1814 at Portsea but can't see a marriage to a Sarah .
But that's not helping with the Barry's. I see what else I can find.
Ciderdrinker
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Apologies for the delay in replying.
Great amount of info, thanks so much! It seems to be falling into place for the family of the Elizabeth Barry I've been searching for, even the wider family can be useful. Haberfield/Haverfield does seem to be the name that is in my ancestry.
I'm going to start putting it all together, in date order etc, which will hopefully build a clearer picture and I'll continue searching in the morning.
But anything else you manage to dig up will be great - thanks again :)
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With the navy in mind, had a look at the national Archives as I have just been researching my hubby's family and still learning!
Have found these few references for you-
National Archives 1
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01u6y/
Ignore the first record
Isaac jnr is at the Greenwich school and it confirms his parents marriage date in 1814 in Portsea as ciderdrinker posted.
Mention of a son Kendrick born 5 April 1820
Marriage ref. 1814, both single
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01u6z/
There's also an executor's application for money owed by the Royal Navy on the death of Isaac Leut. 7 Mar 1838 which can be downloaded, Elizabeth, wid, Gold St. Portsmouth.
National Archives 2
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01u70/
First few on this page for Haberfield plus a death for Elizabeth Haberfield 1858
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Gro deaths
HABERFIELD, ELIZABETH 71
GRO Reference: 1858 D Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 61
According to the newspaper, Isaac died at Valognes de la Manche, near Cherbourg and was the nephew of the late Mr. Andrew Haberfield of Redliffe Parade.
Sorry it's not nearer Barry again ???
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Good morning willsy
Thank you for new info on the Haberfield/Haverfield branch, I've added it to all the other info received to sort through!
Great help from RootsChat members, hopefully more Barry info will also turn up!
:)
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Been going through all the details you've found for me which have been very interesting!
But have also been trying to concentrate on Elizabeth Barry (born Aug 1838 baptised Sept 1838) parents John and Elizabeth, mostly because she's (hopefully) my direct line. There is a GRO birth for a Elizabeth Barry 1838 Bristol which I've found and I may order a digital cert although the mother's surname is missing.
I just can't understand why, as a baby and then a young child, she wasn't with either of her parents in the 1841 or 1851 census and ! still can't find her in 1861 census, 2 years before she married Edwin Thompson.
Because she wasn't in the 1841 census it crossed my mind that she had died and therefore wasn't my ancestor? Because the parents seemed to move around, having children in different places, Thomas and Mary Ann in London, Bartholomew in Somerset etc, I'm not sure where she may have died - if that's the case. Can't find a burial either.
???
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Just noting these for MMN and trying to work it out!
Elizabeth 1838 no MMN
BARRY, BARTHOLAMEW HABERFIELD
GRO Reference: 1839 M Quarter in OF WELLS UNION Volume 10 Page 491
***BARRY, ELIZA HABERFIELD
GRO Reference: 1842 M Quarter in THE CLIFTON UNION Volume 11 Page 272
Joseph 1844
BARRY, WINEFRED ELIZABETH HABERFIELD
GRO Reference: 1848 M Quarter in THE CLIFTON UNION Volume 11 Page 260
Is there an address on the 1863 marriage certificate for Elizabeth?
***ADDED There is a navy record on the National Archives for Bartholomew Barry no. 25643; enters service 20 Nov 1855 for which there is a downloadable record, same birthdate as baptism, born Clifton, Glouces.
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Yes, I had started to do the same, listing the children and noting the maiden name!
The addresses on the 1863 marriage certificate are unfortunately a bit vague for Elizabeth and Edwin, it 'Stokes Croft, Bristol' for both of them, that's under St Paul's I think.
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Just a quick update, I ordered the GRO digital cert for the Elizabeth Barry born Bristol 1838 to see if it is my Elizabeth but it's not :(
She was born 30.12.1838 St Peter's Hospital
Father Thomas Barry - occ Porter
Mother Elizabeth looks like 'Pound' ??? but very hard to read, definitely not Haberfield.
Very disappointing, have no idea where to find my Elizabeth's birth record to confirm she matches the catholic baptism and daughter of John Barry! Where was she 1841 census - 1861 census?!
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So sorry to hear it wasn't the right one.
I've searched so many avenues and decided to comeback to Cahill because of the Thompson Catholic records and found the Cahill marriage in the non-conformist records for Bristol, don't know if it will help but I can't think of anything else ???
1 June 1868 Holy Apostles
Jacobum Cahill
Harriettam Barry father Joannis Barry
Wits.Guliemus Murphy, Emilia Lewis
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Good morning
Thank you for continuing to look, it's much appreciated :)
I had a similar day yesterday but it's very frustrating finding no confirmation of Elizabeth anywhere before her 1863 marriage.
I've looked into the Cahill connection again but can't seem to connect Harriet Barry to the family I'm looking for. Before her 1868 marriage Harriet Barry was in the 1861 census with her widowed mother Mary (who was born Ireland), Harriet born Bristol.
Can't find either of them before 1861 or Harriet's baptism which would have been around 1839.
???
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Hi
Here is an update on my continued search for the elusive Elizabeth Barry, my 2x ggrandmother, as I seem to have taken a step backwards. ???
While trying to find Elizabeth in ANY census prior to her 1863 marriage, I came across this:
1861 census Eton, Buckinghamshire
James Dalley Head 44 1817 Horse dealer Bristol
Eliza Dalley Wife 46 1815 - Bristol
Eliza Barry Stepdaughter Unmarried 22 1839 Bristol
George Barry Stepson Unmarried 20 1841 Bristol
Benoni Jane Brown Daughter in law Unmarried 27 1834 Bristol
Emma Webber Servant 19 1842 General servant West Drayton, Middlesex
As a ‘wildcard’ I searched backwards for Eliza Dalley, and discovered she got remarried to James Dally 1846 Bristol.
I also found 2 CoE baptisms for her children Eliza and George.
St James, Bristol
Eliza
Born 13.08.1838
Baptised 20.02.1848
George
Born 24.01.1841
Baptised 20.02.1848
Parents: John and Elizabeth Barry Father's occupation: Tailor
Eliza’s DOB caught my eye as it’s the same date as ‘my’ Elizabeth’s catholic baptism in St Mary on the Quay, Bristol (which stated DOB 13.08.1838 baptism 24.09.1838 parents Joannis Barry and Elizabeth Barry (her maiden name was left blank).
So I looked up Eliza’s and George’s GRO births in Bristol and both showed the mother’s maiden name as Brown.
Given this new information of the mother’s maiden name and father John’s occupation of Tailor, it looks very likely that what I thought (and hoped) was ‘my’ Elizabeth’s birth and catholic baptism in 1838 Bristol is not correct as it looks like a different family!
Which means I will have no information for Elizabeth prior to her 1863 marriage. Can anyone have a look and see what they think?
Thank you
:(
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All I have found so far is a Catholic baptism of a George Barry born 25 Jan 1841-
Bap. 20 Jan 1842 Clifton
Georgius Barry parents
Georgii Barry and Elizabeth Brown
Godmother Alicia Barry (see reply 3 from ciderdrinker)
GRO
BARRY, ELIZA BROWN
GRO Reference: 1838 S Quarter in BRISTOL Volume 11 Page 146
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Have a look at the Divorce records for Eliza Dally, she petitioned for divorce 1868, formerly Eliza Barry and the marriage cert for 1846 in the records has father Isaac brown.
Ties in with looking for George 1851 as he is with the Brown's as grandson and I think Eliza is as Eliza Dally 1851 with the Broome family in Westminster, whist James and Eliza are in Hammersmith.
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Hi willsy, sorry for the delay in replying.
Thank you for what you have found, I'll have a look at it but it seems to indicate they are not connected to my Elizabeth Barry, I was hoping I'd found her in the census. (It's like she just appeared in 1863 when she married Edwin!)
Appreciate your help :)