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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: Essnell on Monday 26 January 26 22:18 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I am trying to find out more about Hanna Shawcross.
I am not sure when she was born but around 1800 or possibly 1790's.
it's possible that she is my great grandmother's mother.
There is one person from the more recent and living family members who has placed this lady into this position in her online tree.
However there is no documentation supporting this . I cannot find a connection at all.
I have previously looked at the birth record for a daughter of hers and that never added up either.
I keep getting tangled up in the Booth family so I am still mystified as to where this actually becomes a reality or an incorrect trail.
I can give more info later if needed but don't want to start from bad information.
Anyone here wiling to take a look at this. It's possible it was looked at about 20 yrs ago with no success.
Thanks for any input .
Essnell
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Esnell,
Hi again, can you share a bit more detail, and you say you keep getting mixed up with the Booth family, which one? There are many ….
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"it's possible that she is my great grandmother's mother."
If you are researching the origins of the great grandmother you need to give all the information you have on that ancestor.
What is the earliest evidence you have of her.....,marriage record?, mother on a birth certificate?...what?
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it's possible that she is my great grandmother's mother.
Who was your great grandmother? Name/birth year/birthplace etc etc
There is one person from the more recent and living family members who has placed this lady into this position in her online tree.
There are numerous trees on Ancestry with misinformation because people "claim" ancestors without doing thorough research. Ignore what the tree says & do your own research
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Hi All three of you.
Firstly: my great grandmother was Fanny Massey, supposedly born 1837.I do not have a certificate. I have found in the past two possible births for her. one in Basford and one in Altrincham. I have followed both of these in the past but neither fit into the story.
She died in 1886.Cullingworth , keighley, Yorrkshire all confirmed.
From Fanny forwards I have all the information documented,
It's finding her parents that is the mystery.
So we have a possible candidate in Hannah Shawcross. she had two children in Altrincham.
Fanny in Sept Qtr. 1837 Vol19 pg 7
Elizabeth Dec Qtr. 1839 Vol 19 pg 11
the first one is the right name and the right yeatr. but.... the rest does not connect.
I have two DNA matches that might be useful one is Bennett. and off his match list is the other. I will get back to this one later.
Other information is this. it looks like that Hannah Shawcross at some point was Hannah Massey.
to the DNA Tony Bennett: his attached tree has 390 persons.
He has James Booth 1844- married to Hannah Massey -- this person was born 1845 Kirkby Bleak Hall, Nottinghamshire. Hannah is said to have died 1887, Basford, Nottingham.
Hannah born 1845 gr ref: 1845 June Quarter, Basford MMN Wilton V 15 p468 I have not found a Massey /Wilton marriage. But could she have had a younger sister???
James parents : father: Isaac Booth Mother Hannah Booth {{ she was born Flint}}
If there is a younger sister who was born 1837 that would match the DNA and then Ms. Shawcross disappears??
Essnell.
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Essnell,
Hi, so did she die as Fanny Massey? Who did she marry, do you have her in the Census, this should give you place of birth.
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Maybe the Shawcross connection has come from the 1841 census where you have fanny massey in the household of Fanny Showcross in Mere Cheshire. A certicate (mmn Shawcross) and baptism exist for that Fanny Massey.
James Massey married Hannah Shallcross in 1832
Since you started off asking about Hannnah Shawcross she was baptised as Hannah Shallcross 1813. Parents Joshua and Frances. Mere. All consistent with 1841 census.
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Hi Valk and everyone,
I do have that certificate and that is what set me off looking for Hannah Shawcross . It is definitely Shawcross
So if James Massey married Hannah Shallcross in 1832, then Fanny's birth fits that but....on FindMyPast Fanny married Holt. and died in 1882
So maybe this isn't my Fanny Massey.
Oh dear ???
Essnell
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So why did you ask us about Hannah Shawcross? if you have already eliminated this particular Fanney Massey. Who did your Fanny Massey marry? Where has she come from in your research?
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Fanny MASSEY daughter of James MASSEY and Hannah SHA*CROSS is easy to follow on census records before and after her marriage to William HO(U)LT. She was born in Mere, Wiltshire.
Is your Fanny named as Fanny CRAGGS in 1881 with her children at Over Wyresdale in Lancashire? She was born in Nottinghamshire.
Debra :)
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Hi
Valk, I am asking about this person Hannah Shawceoss / Shallcross [?] as I need to prove she isn't the correct person and not just by my saying so. I need proof. one way or the other. but there is smoke there as ther are DNA connections to James Booth
David: re Fanny in my family.
As far as I can tell documents say she was born in 1837. To whom I have no idea as nothing fits anywhere.
Now here is what I know about her, all on here somewhere else. Ages ago, but this Shawcross name is very new.
She didn't die as Fanny Massey.
She died as Fanny Craggs in 1886 in Cullingworth, Keighley Yorkshire.
She was not married to the father of her children all 5 of them. He was her partner. John Craggs.
I have never found a marriage certificate for this pair. But there are questions about that.
At the end of the document in the margin is a reference to a Stat Dec made 3weeks after her death and burial.
It says that she was not John's wife but his housekeeper . Given that I now know he had a marriage, albeit it illegal as the lady was already married. and they also had a child. that statemenet could be correct. i havenot been able to get a copy of that declaration.
John before Fanny died moved in with another married woman in Sept 1886 until sometime around 1891 after, that he disappeared.
The Stat Dec was signed by her 16 yr old son and a fellow called Jabez Crabtree also in Cullingworth.
In 1881 I have her on the Census at Overwryesdale Lancashire which is way up on the norther part out past Yorkshire Dales. It say she was from Nottingham, Nottinghamshire.
I do not have anything for 1871 or 1861.
Now her son's birth Certificate which I have a full copy of, says that the mother /informant was Fanny Craggs, Late Kelly, formerly Massey. I have previously been informed that it means she was previously married or known asK elly and was born Massey.
I cannot prove a Kelly connection to her except by here-say which is unacceptable but could actually be true. DNA might someday do that.
My grandmother's birth Certificate has similar information except the Kelly connection. She was born at Mosdale Moor near Hawes. John was a stone mason.
However I cannot see that any of this will help here. but here's hoping....
Essnell.
Dundee, your post came through while I was typing.
Thanks I will follow up on --- Fanny married to Hoult.
Yes the Fanny Craggs is the right person. I have all of that and have just posted about it above.
Thanks for helping
Essnell
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Hello
Frances Massey born Kirkby in Ashfield in 1838 Does that seems likely? Not in GRO but in Notiinghamshire baptisms in FindMyPast. The Craggs' eldest son, Joseph, seems to have been registered in Mansfield which is not far from Kirkby in Ashfield.
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Hi all,
I have looked at this one often and tried to trace her.
I am not near my files right now so from memory I recall that she married Lowe. Which didn't help at all. They had a son.
I do know that Joseph was born at Basford as was his other sister Annie, whose birth I recently found.
In the past every line ended in a dead end.
Later today I will get the file out from under half a dozen others.
I was in the middle of two other long searches which are still on going.
This bit has been niggling for a while as it's on a cousin's tree. On there there is no evidence attached so it's based on one birth certificate.
Further I should look again at my DNA matches. This should help but it is not doing so. Ummmm!!!
Essnell.
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Hi everyone,
Just thinking....again....
Hanna Shawcross had another daughter, Elizabeth, born after Fanny in 1839. September Quarter. Vol 19 pg 7.
Maybe checking on her might help??
I will take a look asap.
Essnell.
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Essnell,
Hi, this help a lot as it gives us something to go after. It pretty much rules out the birth in Altringham.
Basford would certainly be a possibility, just on the edge of Nottingham.
Kirkby in Ashfield seems to be in the Basford registration district and there is an 1841 census entry for a Fanny in Kirkby, another possibility.
Do you know if they were non conformists? Baptists or Quakers?
PS the 1833 Fanny Massey does seem to marry Anthony Lowe with Census data to 1891.
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PS
Frances Massey 1838 looks to be in Selston in 1841, white her parents, James and Ann with brother and sister William and Ann.
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PS
Frances Massey 1838 looks to be in Selston in 1841, white her parents, James and Ann with brother and sister William and Ann.
Parents are John and Ann, siblings are William, Mary and Elizabeth. John MASSEY and Ann WELTON married in 1833.
Debra :)
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Hi all,
I have looked at this one often and tried to trace her.
I am not near my files right now so from memory I recall that she married Lowe. Which didn't help at all. They had a son.
The Fanny that married LOWE was baptised in 1832 daughter of William and Sarah - completely different person to the one baptised in 1838 daughter of John and Ann.
Debra :)
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Hi David,
first: I have questioned the religion side quite a lot.
My grandmother Ellen, attended a Chapel in Cullingworth. she was awarded a book, a novel a romantic one which surprised me.... I read it and it was quite a good story.... the chapel was next to a small school and that was attached to a church. i cannot remember what .
I did try to find out more about this as i believe it may have been Quaker or Ebenezer mission.
i was particularly drawn to this given there was no recorded marriage, i also neve was able to find a way to access any records.
Add this to the mix. In 1881 both John Craggs and Fanny were up in Overwryesdale. As John was a mason his work took him to many places. Fanny ran a bording house. I think john lived in one of the huts that were providedby whomever was employing him. it may have been for the weir at Overwryesdale or more viaducts. The boarding house gave them a living.
Now with Fanny were the 5 children and all were enrolled as this school :Cawthorne's Endowed School, abbeystead. 1674-2014. The date tells Wwhwen i researched this. the school exists and I have photos of it. It's lovely. It's small.
i found the children on the school register for approximately 2 years. 1800-1882. the interesting part is that this school was setup by Quaker people back in 1674 and only caters for Quaker Children. I have down loaed a 46 page document on the history of the school.
Does this mean that John and or Fanny were Quakers?
I might be wrong here but if either John or Fanny was a Quaker there were restrictions as when etc they could marry if at all. I do not know enough to make a call on this.
John came from Cumberland, Penrith area and this area, I have been led to believe, has/had a significant Quaker presence form a long time in the past.
Re the Lowe records- if she is still with Lowe in 1891 that rules her out as my Fanny / Massey/ Craggs in question died 1886.
I have just messaged the manager of the DNA match back to Booth . She hales from nottingham .
This might be helpful we shall see. .....Food needed....
Essnell.
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* Cheshire Parish Register Database
https://cheshireparish.csc.liv.ac.uk/Live/v3.6/database.html
* Baptism at parish ROS residence Mere
MASSEY Sarah baptised 7 Jul 1833 ps. James / Hannah
MASSEY George baptised 14 Jun 1835 ps. James / Hannah
MASSEY Fanny baptised 6 Aug 1837 ps. James / Hannah
MASSEY Elizabeth Ann baptised 8 Dec 1839 ps. James / Hannah
* Ancestry Census England 1841 township of Mere Cheshire
SHAWCROSS Fanny 60y ind
MASSEY James 30y ag. lab.
MASSEY Hannah 30y
MASSEY Sarah 8y
MASSEY George 6y
MASSEY Fanny 4y
MASSEY Elizabeth 2y all born in county
* Ancestry Census England 1851 Hulse Heath Mere Cheshire
MASSEY James wdr farm labourer 40y b. Knutsford Cheshire
MASSEY Fanny 13y b. Mere Cheshire
MASSEY Elizabeth Ann 11y b. Mere Cheshire
SHALLCROSS Fanny wd. mother-in-law 74y b. Rostherne Cheshire
* Ancestry Census England 1861 Hulse Heath Mere Cheshire
SHALLCROSS Fanny wd. 86y widow of farm labourer b. Rostherne
MASSEY Fanny g.daughter 23y unmarried b. Rostherne
MASSEY Elizabeth g.g.dau 1y b. Lymm Cheshire
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* Cheshire Parish Register Database
https://cheshireparish.csc.liv.ac.uk/Live/v3.6/database.html
Parish ROST 26 Sep 1832
MASSEY James (X) residence ROSTP
SHALLCROSS Hannah (X) residence ROSTP
witnesses Thomas LEIGH James HEWITT
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hi Wivenhoe,
Thank you for both posts.
the second one is interestnig. Breaking it doen a bit:---
1841 census.
60yr old Fanny Shawcross of independent means.
Then married couple James Massey and Hannah Massey. [ is her mother Fanny Shawcross?]
then the couples children Sarah * George 6fanny E and Elizabeth 2.
By1851
James Massey is a widower so Hannah has died.
The children are now :
Fanny Massey 13.
Elizabeth 11 what happened to this child?
Then Fanny Shallcross and she is a widow and she is 74. and mother-in-law. So she would be deceased Hannah's mother.
If this is the same person as Shawcross ?
Then in 1861
Fanny Shallcross is 86 widow to whom was she married???
her grand daughter Fanny Massey 23 who now has a child
Elizabeth 1 year. gt grand daughter
therefore : If this is the right family ? ? Fanny Massey in 1861 is still in Mere Cheshire with her grandmother. She must have subsequently married either Kelley or Craggs or partnered both or either..
Here's the snag: My Fanny Massey was in 1860 having a child Joseph in Basford which has been posted above.
As I said it always looks great but it never quite fits. It is just so frustrating.
Essnell.
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* Census 1881 at Abbeystead for CRAGGS family, mother Fanny and five children, has Joseph age 11y....so born ~ 1870
Is this your family?
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Oops!! 10yrs out of wack aren't I. Sorry. Okay. So can you find a way of connecting this to that. The family in Overwryesdale 1881 is the one. Referred to in big post to "David" re religion.
If fanny at age 23 in 1861 she would be what in 1886....48 yrs I reckon. So my person was 49 yrs.
Can you see if this Lady married again at all. Who was the father of g.g.dau Elizabeth?
That might help.
Did Fanny Shallcross ever marry anyone else? Have you any idea of what religion this family were?
So many unknowns here.
I am sorry about my brain laps.
Essnell.
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William Holt and Fanny are living in Lymm in 1871. They have an 11 year old daughter Elizabeth which seems to match up with Fanny's illegitimate child born in Lymm in 1859. So I think this rules out living in Mansfield and having Joseph in 1870
She married William Hoult in warrington August 12th 1861. (fathers name James)
There was a fanny holt of the right age buried in Lymm in 1882.
Therefore this is not the fanny massey you are looking for - she could not have become fanny craggs.
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Then in 1861
Fanny Shallcross is 86 widow to whom was she married???
her grand daughter Fanny Massey 23 who now has a child
Elizabeth 1 year. gt grand daughter
Fanny CRAGGS and Fanny HOLT are two different women. Fanny HOLT has her 11 year old daughter Elizabeth living with her in 1871.
By1851
James Massey is a widower so Hannah has died.
The children are now :
Fanny Massey 13.
Elizabeth 11 what happened to this child?
Elizabeth had two illegitimate children, William Gordon in 1867 and Emily in 1868. The children are in the Altrincham workhouse in 1871 and then with their mother in 1881.
Elizabeth married James SHORE in 1872 at Stockport and in 1881 she is living in Marple, Cheshire.
Debra :)
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I have two DNA matches that might be useful.....
He has James Booth 1844- married to Hannah Massey -- this person was born 1845 Kirkby Bleak Hall, Nottinghamshire. Hannah is said to have died 1887, Basford, Nottingham.
Hannah born 1845 gr ref: 1845 June Quarter, Basford MMN Wilton V 15 p468 I have not found a Massey /Wilton marriage. But could she have had a younger sister???
The surname should be WELTON.
John MASSEY married Ann WELTON in Kirkby in 1833, which takes you back to reply #11
Frances Massey born Kirkby in Ashfield in 1838 Does that seems likely? Not in GRO but in Nottinghamshire baptisms in FindMyPast.
William MASSEY
Baptism Date 8 Jun. 1834
Baptism Place Kirkby in Ashfield, St. Wilfrid, Nottinghamshire, England
Parents John and Ann
Mary Ann MASSEY
Gender Female
Baptism Date 22 May 1836
Baptism Place Kirkby in Ashfield, St. Wilfrid, Nottinghamshire, England
Parents John and Ann
Frances MASSEY
Baptism Date 11 Mar. 1838
Baptism Place Kirkby in Ashfield, St. Wilfrid, Nottinghamshire, England
Parents John and Ann
MASSEY, ELIZABETH
Mother's maiden surname: WELTON
GRO Reference: 1840 J Quarter in BASFORD Volume 15 Page 440
MASSEY, PETER
Mother's maiden surname: WESTON
GRO Reference: 1843 J Quarter in BASFORD Volume 15 Page 453
MASSEY, HANNAH
Mother's maiden surname: WILTON
GRO Reference: 1845 J Quarter in BASFORD Volume 15 Page 468
MASSEY, SARAH
Mother's maiden surname: WESTON
GRO Reference: 1847 D Quarter in BASFORD Volume 15 Page 392
1841 census
Selston
Piece 861
Book 1
Folio 12
Page number 17
1851 census
Selston, Notts
Piece 2125
Folio 85
Page number 25
1861 census
Selston
Piece 2432
Folio 42
Page number 38
Debra :)
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Debra,
Whoops, must stop researching so late, or at least posting!
Looks fairly convincing for Fanny Massey?
PS I did note that Isaac Booth seems to have been a stone mason born in Selston.
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Hi Everyone,
Thanks very much for all your input and help..it has made me revisit some things that had been left for future reeference and I am grateful for all of the time and effort you have all put in.
okay ... If the Kirby-in-Ashfield appears to be the right person of this search ...
how do I link her to Kelly, given that on checking Fanny's death it was recorded twice once as Kelly and once as Craggs, but it turns out to be the same document for both names.
Now what about this Kelly part: I have some previous information that suggests the person was Patrick Kellay.
Some have suggessted that Fanny married him in 1883 which I find hard to accept - especially with the 1881 census with everyone as Craggs even after that date.
I have a probable link to an army barracks unit where a Kelly and a Massey are recorded on a census. I have not got that right in front of me as it has never been considered as useful, but the Barracks were in Nottingham.
My thought here is that Fanny would not have documented about Kelly on Josephs Birth if it were not accurate.
then
and considering I don't have or can't see a DNA link ...it's still a dead end. May be it will forever be so... time will tell.
Cheers Essnell
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Essnell,
Hi, if she had no children with Kelly then there would be no DNA link, all the evidence we have seen so far would make that a possibility wouldn’t it?
If Kelly was a soldier, he may have been posted abroad and she did not go?
One can make up lists of possible stories!
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Hi David,
I know one can possibly envisage things as they seem they ought to be but this just does not at present give me confidence to say "Yep,Got it" ! I wish I could.
You ask about a child by Kelley [Kellay]
My grandmother Ellen talked a lot about an older child, a girl. I have no idea if she actually lived with them or just visited. However from what Grandma said""" I presume she was with them . She is not on that 1881 census.
Her name was Sarah Ann Kelly. I have in the past looked for her - not all that successfully. The details go on to say that Sarah Ann did not want her mother to get married. Why " because she would have had a "navie" for a father. Grandma said she was much older that the others.
Now when Fanny died 1886, this Sarah Ann had already married and they were going to USA. She offered to take the two younger boys with her. They never took the boys and I know nothing more about her. I don't even know if she did go to USA.
The two younger boys ended up boarding with families in Cullingworth. As did Annie. Joseph joined the Army.
One of the younger boys eventually did as well. I have info on them both and a couple of 1900 army medals that were in my Grandmohter's possession. How and why, who knows.
Even so there are just too many loose ends, seemingly without answers. :-\
Time I called it a day... and gave my cat some food. one day she will be my avatar.
Essnell
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Essnell,
Sounds like a plan, are you happy that Hannah Shawcross is a red herring, though I can see why given the Ancestry hints.
Happy Hunting
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Hi David ,
Yes, I do think Hanna Shawcoss is a redherring. As Shallcross that's debatable there is no reason why either could be related except for the Daughter, Fanny's birth date.
I am more leaning towards some link with the Booth clan. That's in my DNA although fairly distant.
It's via a Bennett line. There are two Bennett's a male who could be a child or young teen, and the person who manages his account.
Looking for more Bennett's in the DNA I found several about 6 linked to the first one. They all have quite low cM values but still in the range of useful. I need to check all of their match lists. Usual process. ;D
Unfortunately it's really hard to follow the family backwards. These are at 4th cousin level.
I found one person a few months ago connected to my gt. grandfather and they had 19 cM so these do work. :)
Food for thought and more happy hunting.
Essnell.
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Essnell,
Hi, much easier in Scotland! Though the Booth’s look restively straightforward? The Hannah Massey that Debra pointed out seems to have married James Booth?
Happy Hunting
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Hi David,
Yes. That I where I think it would be useful to start again. See if I can link any of the matches back to there.
Might be interesting and probably difficult.
Earlier today I started listing matches to matches, those I know see related to Ellen Craggs. It's her sisters family links.
I just realised that my Aussie cousins aren't showing up. Those of my Uncle.
Something to think about as well.
Essnell.
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Hi David and Deb.
After much internal debate I decided to see if there was a link to Frances Massey anywhere. So firstly I did the usual search thing.
So this is what I found.
Frances Massey DOB C 1837.
Baptism 11th March 1838
The baptism record image is for Entry No 1241 March 11th daughter of John and Anne. John is a Labourer.
It took place at St Wilfred's Nottingham. Unfortunately the Archdeacon's Transcript does also have the birth date noted anywhere. However Frances could have been born late in the DEC Quarter as well as the March Quarter. Which gives a DOB 1837/1838.
The record was on Ancestry search not a tree.
For the 1841 Census; Selston ?
The children are:
Mary 5yrs
William 7yrs
Frances 3 yrs
Elizabeth 1 yr.
Depending on when the Census was taken....April maybe.
John was 30y rs and Anne was 25 yrs.
In 1851 the children were listed the same except for Frances who was not listed. She would have been 22 yrs old by then.
Seeing as how she was not on this list I looked for a marriage which I didn't find but I did get the following:
Frances Massey DOB 1837 Death 1884, June Quarter, Leeds, Vol: 09B page 301. on www.freebmd.org.uk
I have not finished yet as I want to recheck marriages etc.
Also my DNA list has Bennett as a match. And in the Ancestry search that matching showed up as one of the possible family trees.
I checked, skeptical....DOB 1839 siblings similar with addition of Peter 1843, Hannah 1845 and Sarah 1848
So the question is -- " is Frances connected to my line or not or is it via this Bennett matching. "
Not sure of much here.
Essnell.
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Hi
I don't think you and I are seeing the same thing on the 1851 census. Church Lane Selston. The extra children Peter etc are all there with John (widower) plus the ones from 1841 except Frances. By the way she would be 12/13 not 22 in 1851. Likely to be a servant somewhere.
see reply 26
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Hi Valk,
Thanks for the reply. It's late here, s I will recheck in the morning.
So even at that age she was else where. I will look again.
Rereading posts would it be remotely possible that the connection is Massey into the Bennet family, via Hannah 1845. Frances' sister.
Spent today fixing my tree on Ancestry of all the duplicates etc from hints that I ignored it dismissed etc. So not much else done.
Back in about 7 hours.
Essnell.