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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Red Tom on Thursday 22 January 26 13:32 GMT (UK)
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Open question-the Ancestry searches I've made re my relatives WWI enlistment/attestation have drawn a blank (apart from mic) so is it reasonable for me to assume that none exist, or are there other options for me to try?
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First of all, over 65% of WW1 soldiers records were destroyed by fire when the storage facility was hit during the bombing of London in WW2.
Second, if you had male relatives that were of age to serve in WW1 then if they served overseas they would have qualified for a medal. The Medal Index Cards and Medal Rolls can be seen on Ancestry. Please be careful, just because you may find a medal entry for a man with the same name as one of your relatives it doesn't mean that he is 'your man'.
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Thank you for your response AllanUK.
I should have made it clear in my post, but I found the relevant index cards on Ancestry, and they're without doubt my man's, but nothing turns up otherwise, so do I assume there is nothing else to find (re enlistment)?
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If you haven't found the service records of your relatives and you are fairly confident that you've used the correct search terms, then the chances are that the records are among the majority which haven't survived. By the correct search terms, I mean that you have tried both precise details, such as first names and dates of birth as well as more fuzzy searches. For example someone born Henry may well appear in the records as Harry, and dates of birth given to recruiters can differ greatly from the actual date of birth - no independent checks were made.
But even if the main service record has been lost, there are other records which have survived. For example some medical records and some prisoner of war records are available, and if any of your relatives were entitled to a pension as a result of their service, the records of this will still exist. Finally some ancillary sources such as absentee voter records for 1919-20, and the 1921 census can throw up some details about a man's military service. Also if you know any of units that your relatives served in it may be worth contacting the museum connected with each unit as they hold other sorts of records. This last approach works best with infantry regiments and less well with the larger corps such as the Labour Corps or Machine Gun Corps.
If you found Medal Index Cards which you are certain belong to your relatives (bearing in mind what AllanUK said) then having each man's regimental number(s) will aid your search using the other sources I have mentioned, and also may allow you to pin down when they enlisted, as the numbers were issued sequentially. Use Paul Nixon's excellent website to help with this: https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/p/index.html
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The records on Ancestry don't include commissioned officers. What survives is only at the National Archives but you may be lucky.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-officers-after-1913/
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Don't forget newspapers.
A separate thread is running at the moment hoping to pin down "date attested", in the absence of records other than medal roll, death record CWGC etc. The key record was part of the so called "burnt documents" lost WWII. This morning a photo and newspaper article was found of how the soldier being researched had fared. The newspaper article did not solve "date attested" question but added significantly to what was previously known.
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Andy J2022 - Kingsclere - Hanes leulu, thank you all for your replies. I hadn't intended to request specific help with this, but I should probably included the attached to assist anyone kind enough to lend a hand.
From what I know for sure, my man was aged 17 in 1914,and his regimental number seems to me to indicate enlistment at a date prior to 1919? The regiment was in India at the outbreak of war, so I'm assuming he was sent overseas at a point around 1917? (purely guesswork)
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Do you know where he was on 1921 Census ?
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Do you know where he was on 1921 Census ?
Hi, he's single and at home in Hough Green ,Widnes. He married the following year.
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Do you know where he was on 1921 Census ?
Hi, he's single and at home in Hough Green ,Widnes. He married the following year.
Yes I only just found out after asking that he married Mary Ellen Pilkington in September Quarter 1922 but couldnt find his 1921 Census
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He was Born 26 July 1898 as One of Eight to Robert Lyons and Sarah Jane Wareing
He was probably Conscripted 1916 but more like to get in a Local Regt he enlisted in 1915 by lying about his age.
He probably went to India in early 1919 and if he came home late 1920 or early 1921 then his Army Records wouldnt have been sent to Arnside Street Repository Storeroom in 1920 with other Ex Soldiers
More likely similar to my Granddad who were still in the Army after 1920 and so their Records went after 1920 to the Army New Storeroom that was never Blitzed and they were held by the MOD now National Archives awaiting descendants to apply for them now.
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I assume you have the details about his older brother George's service. If not, he joined the 12th (service) Battalion Kings (Liverpool) Regt in early 1915 and was given the number K/20409, with the K signifying he was part of the new Kitchener Army. He went to France via Boulogne on 24 Jul 1915 and was awarded the 1915 Star. At some later point he was transferred to the 2nd Battalion South Lancashire Regiment and got the new number 40789. From their respective numbers it's clear he transferred before his brother John joined, and so it is possible he 'claimed' his brother, which was why John was in the same regiment although not the same battalion.
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He was Born 26 July 1898 as One of Eight to Robert Lyons and Sarah Jane Wareing
He was probably Conscripted 1916 but more like to get in a Local Regt he enlisted in 1915 by lying about his age.
He probably went to India in early 1919 and if he came home late 1920 or early 1921 then his Army Records wouldnt have been sent to Arnside Street Repository Storeroom in 1920 with other Ex Soldiers
More likely similar to my Granddad who were still in the Army after 1920 and so their Records went after 1920 to the Army New Storeroom that was never Blitzed and they were held by the MOD now National Archives awaiting descendants to apply for them now.
ALAMO2008, I'm grateful for your help. So you think it's worthwhile trying NA for anything they may have?
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I assume you have the details about his older brother George's service. If not, he joined the 12th (service) Battalion Kings (Liverpool) Regt in early 1915 and was given the number K/20409, with the K signifying he was part of the new Kitchener Army. He went to France via Boulogne on 24 Jul 1915 and was awarded the 1915 Star. At some later point he was transferred to the 2nd Battalion South Lancashire Regiment and got the new number 40789. From their respective numbers it's clear he transferred before his brother John joined, and so it is possible he 'claimed' his brother, which was why John was in the same regiment although not the same battalion.
Andy J2022, Thank you for this extra research. Off the top of your head, do you know if there are relevant war diaries I could check out?
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He was Born 26 July 1898 as One of Eight to Robert Lyons and Sarah Jane Wareing
He was probably Conscripted 1916 but more like to get in a Local Regt he enlisted in 1915 by lying about his age.
He probably went to India in early 1919 and if he came home late 1920 or early 1921 then his Army Records wouldnt have been sent to Arnside Street Repository Storeroom in 1920 with other Ex Soldiers
More likely similar to my Granddad who were still in the Army after 1920 and so their Records went after 1920 to the Army New Storeroom that was never Blitzed and they were held by the MOD now National Archives awaiting descendants to apply for them now.
ALAMO2008, I'm grateful for your help. So you think it's worthwhile trying NA for anything they may have?
Yes - its highly unlikely his Records went to the Old Storeroom in early 1920
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ALAMO2008 - Thank you for your help today.
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Andy J2022, Thank you for this extra research. Off the top of your head, do you know if there are relevant war diaries I could check out?
Not sure if you are asking about George or John. For George you could start with the war diaries of the 12th Battalion Kings (Liverpool) Regiment. Then after he transferred to the 2nd Battalion South Lancs, you need to check their war diaries. They have both been digitised and you can find them on Ancestry. If you don't have an Ancestry subscription you can download them as pdfs from the National Archives for free, once you have registered for an account: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353118 and https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352064
For John, the position is not so clear. As the units in India during the First World War were not actively on operations there are no war diaries for the period prior to 1919 and after that date only the diary for 15 Infantry Brigade (of which the battalion formed part) appears to exist. These have not been digitised, so you would need to go in person to TNA to see them: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4558562
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Andy J2022 - My apologies, yes, I was referring to John. It makes sense that there would be no war diaries for the India service. I won't be in a position to get to TNA anytime soon, and as you say, there isn't much chance of any revelations I think. I'm very grateful for your help with this, so thank you once again.
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When the WW1 Medals were issued on 18 February 1921 John D Lyons was Only awarded the British War Medal
and No Victory Medal
as it was assumed India was not a Theatre of War
so his Service in the 1st South Lancashire Regt in India didn't qualify. He was awarded the 1919 Afghan Medal however
In 1923 it appears alot of his Mates in the 1st SLR applied for their Victory Medal for their Action in Theatre of War 6g in Spring 1918 against the Tribes - and they were subsequently issued 9 July 1923
John was awarded his 8 January 1924
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operations_against_the_Marri_and_Khetran_tribes
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Andy J2022 - My apologies, yes, I was referring to John. It makes sense that there would be no war diaries for the India service. I won't be in a position to get to TNA anytime soon, and as you say, there isn't much chance of any revelations I think. I'm very grateful for your help with this, so thank you once again.
Red Tom,
As you can't get to TNA to view the war diaries concerning the 1st South Lancs Regiment, perhaps this summary of operations during the Third Anglo-Afghan War may help. Despite German and Turkish agitation, Afghanistan remained neutral during the war, thanks in large part to British subsidies (instituted as a settlement of the second Afghan war). The end of the war brought renewed Russian interest in Afghan affairs. After the assassination of Amir Habibullah Khan (19 Feb. 1919), the army and Young Afghan Party installed his third son Amanullah as Amir. Amanullah, suspected of having plotted his father's death, diverted attention from local problems by proclaiming a jihad against Britain on 3 May 1919, capitalising on existing anti-British nationalist feeling in India. Rioting had broken out in the principal towns of the Punjab in March, including Amritsar, where on 13 Apr. 1919 Brig-Gen. Dyer had ordered Gurkha troops to open fire on an unarmed crowd. That massacre horrified not only India but much of the British public. (Dyer was dismissed after the Afghan war.) Taking advantage of the paucity of British troops, Amanullah also sought to regain the North West Frontier Province lost to Sikh expansionism in 1820-34.
British regular forces in India consisted of only two cavalry regiments and eight infantry battalions. The rest of the British garrison were Territorial Army battalions which had been sent during the First World War to relieve regulars for the fighting on the Western Front. With the end of the war these were eager to return to civilian life, and the Commander-in-Chief India had to intervene directly to forestall the threat of mutiny.
Chronology
1919.02.19 Habibullah Khan assassinated
1919.02 Amanullah Khan installed as Amir
1919.05.03 Amanullah Khan declares jihad on Britain
1919.05.04 Afghan forces cross the Indian border, occupying a few towns
1919.05 British and Indian forces immediately mobilised and launch a massive land and air punitive campaign to reclaim the Indian towns and invade Afghanistan through the Khyber Pass; the force applied has been likened by some historians to hitting a mosquito with a sledgehammer
1919.05.31 Amanullah sues for an armistice
1919.08.08 Treaty of Rawalpindi: Britain recognises Afghan independence and ends subsidies
1921.02.28 Afghan treaty of friendship with Russia
Aftermath
By the Treaty of Rawalpindi (8 Aug. 1919, amended 22 Nov. 1921) Britain recognised Afghan independence, assured that British Indian empire would never extend beyond Khyber Pass, and ceased British subsidies to Afghanistan. Afghanistan almost immediately signed a treaty of friendship with the new Bolshevik government in Russia (28 Feb. 1921), and upgraded this on 31 Aug. 1926 to a neutrality and nonaggression pact. This pact was renewed in 1931 and 1955, but Afghanistan did not again engage in war with British India and its independent successor states.
Source: Regiments.org
Other sources:
There is a Wikipedia article on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Anglo-Afghan_War
And this summary from 1919 - The Third Afghan War (https://web.archive.org/web/20070625134843/http://www.magweb.com/sample/smwa/safgh.htm) by Paul Hinson
Sadly none of these paint a detailed picture of what the 1st Battalion South Lancs were involved in. For this you would need to see the 15 Infantry Brigade war diary.
Further reading.
If you can find a copy, this regimental history is likely to cover the period in more depth: Colonel B.R. Mullaly The South Lancashire Regiment (The Prince of Wales's Volunteers). 1955 Bristol: White Swan Press.
And as I mentioned earlier in the thread the regimental museum will be an invaluable source: https://www.lancashireinfantrymuseum.org.uk/
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When the WW1 Medals were issued on 18 February 1921 John D Lyons was Only awarded the British War Medal
and No Victory Medal
as it was assumed India was not a Theatre of War
so his Service in the 1st South Lancashire Regt in India didn't qualify. He was awarded the 1919 Afghan Medal however
In 1923 it appears alot of his Mates in the 1st SLR applied for their Victory Medal for their Action in Theatre of War 6g in Spring 1918 against the Tribes - and they were subsequently issued 9 July 1923
John was awarded his 8 January 1924
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operations_against_the_Marri_and_Khetran_tribes
ALAMO2008 -Thank you for this extra info.
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Andy J2022 - I'm very grateful for your efforts on my behalf, thank you for your work with this.