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Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: sticksville on Tuesday 20 January 26 18:46 GMT (UK)
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I have a number of kin spread across Yorkshire and East Anglia who may have shared common ancestry. A number of them have monuments in churches referencing arms granted in about 1615.
In the absence of known arms, might the stonemason simply have looked up possible matches and given them the benefit of the doubt? The infrequent use of the arms makes me doubt that they would have been known to the different family branches who were mainly of the middling sort, with some upward mobility.
I'd be grateful if anyone has come across something similar.
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1616 tome.
Any of your "rellies" viscounts or above?
In the absence of a drawing (blank shield) could the stonemason create from the description?
https://archive.org/details/cataloguesuccess00broo/mode/2up
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I do like the idea of imagining them thumbing through a glossy mail order catalogue.
And then the medieval equivalent of the delivery driver turning up and chucking the stones over the fence. Probably the fence of the people next door.
Zaph
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1635
https://www.proquest.com/eebo/docview/2240901487/99852759/A481D7520C494C66PQ/1?accountid=12799&sourcetype=Books
Zaph,
A favour please - can you confirm the URL delivers ie. you are not locked out of viewing the end product.
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The reference to the original grant comes from the 'GRANTEES OF ARMS NAMED IN DOCQUETS AND PATENTS TO THE END OF THE XVII CENTURY', BRITISH MUSEUM MS 37,147: KITCHINMAN (Helmsley, Yorkshire), patent .... April 1616, by Camden. Harl. MSS. 6095, fo. 33b, and 1422, fo. 40b : argt., on a pile sable betw. two cross crosslets fitchee gu. three lozenges of the field.
https://archive.org/details/granteesofarmsna00fost/page/146/mode/1up (https://archive.org/details/granteesofarmsna00fost/page/146/mode/1up)
So yes, a stone mason could recreate from a description.
The first monument is in Blundeston St Mary Suffolk, with the same arms for Clement Kitchingman, Rector, impaled with those of Mary Howard. He was from Norwich but his family originated in Shadwell near Leeds. I do not have any documentary link to the Kitchingmans from the North Riding, though I suspect they are related.
https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2015/199/149498053_1437328772.jpg (https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2015/199/149498053_1437328772.jpg)
The second monument is in St Peter Mancroft, Norwich. Dorothy Blyford (nee Kitchingman) was born in Halifax but descended from a branch of the Kitchingman family from Thirkleby in the North Riding. I have a blurry photograph but the description in British History Online reads:
BHO: The flat stones in this [NORTH] isle, beginning at the east end, are... Blyford's arms and crest, a demi-lion or. Thomas Blyford died 1723. Blyford quarterly arg. and gul. on a bend sab. three mullets of the field, impaling Kitchingman, arg. on a pile sab. between two croslets fitché gul. three lozenges or Mathew Blyford, born Aug. 26, 1705, died 3 June 1706, and Kitchingman Blyford born 12 Oct. 1708, died 19 Aug. 1710, both Sons of Mathew Blyford of this Parish, and Dorothy his Wife
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This looks like the DIY version?
https://www.proquest.com/eebo/docview/2240901487/99852759/A481D7520C494C66PQ/1?accountid=12799&sourcetype=Books
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Nothing so grand as a Viscount and these are the only references I've found of the arms being used.
Some of the C17 Kitchingmans acquired the titles of Mr and gentleman, through the legal and clerical professions. A branch from the North Riding became successful Leeds wool merchants and seem to have appropriated another set of arms (I haven't found any record of a grant).
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A George Kitchingman from Raskelf failed to turn up to a summons from Dugdale to show by what right he bore arms/took on the title of esquire or gentleman. He was in good company as a third of those summoned also didn't turn up.
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See reply #3 - does the URL deliver the goods?
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Thanks for the link. I have tried registering but it doesn't seem to have remembered my password!
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When you click on the link does the screen show you 8 pages of coats of arms with a narrative of the content between each page.
If it is requesting you to register it's operating as a restricted site. You won't be able to register.
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I'm not sure what I was looking for but I got taken to the website of the National Library for Wales, and a Google prompt offering to translate it for me.
Zaph
1635
https://www.proquest.com/eebo/docview/2240901487/99852759/A481D7520C494C66PQ/1?accountid=12799&sourcetype=Books
Zaph,
A favour please - can you confirm the URL delivers ie. you are not locked out of viewing the end product.
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This looks like the DIY version?
https://www.proquest.com/eebo/docview/2240901487/99852759/A481D7520C494C66PQ/1?accountid=12799&sourcetype=Books
found the password! Yes I can see that after registering and it's the sort of thing I had in mind., though applying to London livery companies.
The scenario I had in mind was that the daughter of armigerous family dies and they don't want people thinking she was married to a commoner. So, they say to the masons, "There must be something you have for the Kitchingmans." Masons thumb through their reference books and find some grant by Camden in 1616 and say "That will do, who would know any different, it's from Yorkshire anyway."
Perhaps I am overthinking this! The alternative explanation would be that two branches of the family that I haven't been able to connect, treasure/remember the grant of arms and ensure it is set in stone. However, William K, father of the Dorothy in St Peter Mancroft, has a 1719 memorial in Halifax St John absent any arms.
On a slightly different note, the grant of arms by Camden was in Helmsley but I don't have any Kitchingmen living there at that time. Helmsley is one of the places where the quarter sessions took place, so could it have been a central location for granting arms?
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I think the question you should ask is how many C17 Stonemasons could read, and of those how many could afford to buy a book.
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I think the question you should ask is how many C17 Stonemasons could read, and of those how many could afford to buy a book.
The article below suggests that 30% of adult men were fully literate. As people learnt to read before they could write, more would have been able to read.
Put it another way, would you have engaged a highly skilled craftsman to carve a Latin inscription on an expensive piece of marble if they were illiterate?
https://manyheadedmonster.com/2014/10/13/the-rabble-that-cannot-read-ordinary-peoples-literacy-in-seventeenth-century-england/ (https://manyheadedmonster.com/2014/10/13/the-rabble-that-cannot-read-ordinary-peoples-literacy-in-seventeenth-century-england/)
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You don't need to be able to read or write to carve an ornate filigree design on a headstone, so you don't really need to be able to read or write to carve shapes that you and I would recognize as letters. To a skilled craftsman it is just another pattern.
Zaph
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My reply #5 is carrying the wrong URL - I was trying to pick p this tome by John Guillim, 1679.
https://archive.org/details/gri_33125009310737/page/n3/mode/2up
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You may be right, I imagine there would be some literate stonemasons although those with Latin would be few. But to buy an illustrated book would be beyond the means of nearly everybody but the rich, not just stonemasons. Consider also that carving a letter is no different than carving a tree, the fact that one image is a symbol for something else is irrelevant. Perhaps a stonemason who regularly carved gravestones would have a working knowledge of what was required but to reproduce the arms from a description in a book seems to me several steps too far. It is more likely that the stonemason was given a paper copy of the required image and inscription for him to copy in stone.
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My reply #5 is carrying the wrong URL - I was trying to pick p this tome by John Guillim, 1679.
https://archive.org/details/gri_33125009310737/page/n3/mode/2up
Thank you for this link which certainly demonstrates that there were books of heraldic templates indexed by name.
Did stonemasons creating monuments in the greater churches and cathedrals have access to such volumes? These were highly skilled, specialist craftsmen (not the sort of stonemason who could knock you up a lintel) creating expensive, luxury goods. It is likely that the master mason at least would have been literate. They may have followed a paper template - but who produced that?
My query is how were arms granted to a minor North Yorkshire family in 1616 exported to Suffolk in 1652 with no apparent, direct family connection?
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My stonemason ancestors were probably told that their cherubs looked more like gargoyles.
Zaph
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My stonemason ancestors were probably told that their cherubs looked more like gargoyles.
Zaph
and they looked perfect on the "artist's impression" of the proposed development