RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: jellybean2894 on Tuesday 13 January 26 13:35 GMT (UK)
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HI, This is something I have been trying my hand at for some years but I have had no success.
I have had a DNA test done, which gave me a glimmer of hope when I found very close cousins in the same country (South Africa) but they are disinclined to contemplate we're related and have shut down my queries.
We grew up hearing enchanting and adventurous stories about my grandfather, who was from Europe but as a young man was thrown out of his wealthy, powerful, noble family to follow his heart to Africa, where he had 3 children with my grandmother. He seems to have used a double barrel surname so some documents show one, some show the other; we have only the information my aunt compiled before she died, which is once again feeds into the fantastic stories and glamour, but with little factual input. I am seriously stumped. I have engaged with a genealogist from SearchAngels and she has said that there is not sufficient to work on try and triangulate a relative. I am determined that 2026 will be the year I crack this but I haven't a clue where to start besides trawling Ancestry, FamilySearch etc etc. Please can someone give me some advice or a new route to take. Any and all advice appreciated. Thank you!
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Hi don't worry we've all been there with our own family stories with little or no facts to back it up.
Firstly it would help if you could post what information you do have such as Names, DoBs, Location, odd facts and any other random stuff you have heard over the years, This could help others see things in a different light and help steer you in the right direction.
Good luck and happy hunting :)
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Why not share what you do know, possible speculation, names dates etc. do not name any living persons. Im sure rootschatters would welcome a good challenge
SS
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Did he marry your grandmother? If so the marriage record could help.
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Since you are "determined to crack this", and you have nothing to loose, why not post ALL the information that you do have, as Softly Softly suggested.
There are people here who are willing to help.
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If you have close DNA matches, it doesn’t matter whether or not they believe you are related. You most definitely are!
Have you looked at people who match both yourself and these “cousins”? They may have trees which might help you piece the families together.
In addition, if your grandfather was from Europe it might be worth uploading your raw data to My Heritage, which seems to be a popular DNA test for Europeans, and you might get some useful matches. I think it is still free to upload your Ancestry raw data but you may have to pay a little to unlock some of their tools, which is worth doing I think.
I’m sure you’ll get some great help here both with your paper trail and analysing your dna results.
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The cousins who are the DNA matches.
- Where are they located? In Europe?
- As you have been in contact (or tried to contact them), you must know something about them? Perhaps surnames and locations?
- Family trees online for the matches? Or second cousins, etc, failing the first cousins.
The DNA matches must give you something to go on! And if you have matches, even if they don't have have family trees online themselves, perhaps you can create ones for them, or more distant matches.
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Thanks all for your offer of support.
Here is the info I have on my grandfather.
Peter Carl Barnett Barnato ID211/543220 Estate file 270/65.
(Could be double barreled or could be either surname)
Born – Transvaal, South Africa 20/09/1899, may have been December.
Birth was believed to have been registered in his home country - Italy or France - but I haven’t found trace of that. I have also not been able to get a South African birth certificate due pre-1900 birth. He was born here whilst his mother was on holiday.
My aunt’s family history document aka “the saga" says he may have had a child with a woman he met on the boat to SA when he was 21, her name was Rosalind and the child was thought to be Diana, born circa 1922 (Barnato Walker?). This Diana had a daughter by the name of Charmaine.
His father is believed to have owned a villa on Lake Como.
One of Peter's aunts was believed to have been the first wife of Sir Ernest Oppenheimer.
Peter married Gladys Helen Elizabeth Carstens on 21/09/1931 and they had three children – Monica, Julian and Ronald (all deceased)
Gladys passed away at Addington Hospital, Durban. (DOB 28/08/1907-12/08/1953)
The marriage certificate says he was aged 33 at the time of marriage, which indicates he would have been born in 1898.
Peter died in Orange Grove, Johannesburg, 05/08/1964
The document ”Form of information of a death” shows Barnett as the surname, with Barnett Barnato written alongside in pencil.
The document “Death Notice” includes information that I believe my aunt would have given the authorities on the day he died, listing Louis Woolf Barnett-Barnato as Peter’s father, and Virginia Barnett-Barnato as his mother, yet we have no proof or documentation to this effect.
This Death Notice document also includes the name of his sister, believed to be Marie Barnett Barnato, married name Bertola or Bertish. The ”saga" speaks of a Nino (Giovanni?) Bertola, married to this Maria and I have found records of their death in Harrismith in 1948 South Africa. They were married in Biela in Italy. They adopted Louis James Bertola, born 12/04/1934. I learnt somehow that Louis is deceased, but this may be a wild goose chase as I haven’t found a link to Barnett/ Barnato anywhere with Bertola.
Peter may have had another sister, Virginia, who drowned when she was 18 years old.
The closest DNA match live in Johannesburg in South Africa as far as I know but comms has been ignored by her for a few years.
According to the test she is 1st cousin 1x removed or half 1st cousin, Paternal side, 5% shared DNA. She does not have a tree.
All she gave me is that “our dad's parents were Maurice and Mildred Myerson
My paternal grandfather, Maurice was one of 6 children. If you are our 1st or 2nd cousin, then it means that my father has/had a sibling that we were all unaware of and I find that highly unlikely.”
Another DNA match has given me some info about a Myerson connection – I must relook at that as it has disappeared in memory bank and now that I see this written down, it may be something worth looking at.
I will send more info if I come across any, and once again - thanks for sharing your expertise and willingness!
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South African records are very inconsistent in their availability if in fact they exist at all. The Death records are the best source as they tend to list all known children. Unlike the UK Marriage Certs do not necessarily list the Father’s.
Where suspected or actual NPE’s took place then a paper trail may or may not exist.
DNA is the only pathway but it can be a waiting game for a likely route to be found.
Tree build from a match and at some point the paths cross and mean, motive and opportunity exist for the gene transfer to take place.
On a tree I manage a GGM has an unknown Father and via DNA I have found a likely candidate who lived in a village a mile or so away around the time of conception. That is it, there is no other firm outcome, just a probability/possibility. It was a long process and involved over 100 DNA matches where each had a tree built.
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All she gave me is that “our dad's parents were Maurice and Mildred Myerson
My paternal grandfather, Maurice was one of 6 children. If you are our 1st or 2nd cousin, then it means that my father has/had a sibling that we were all unaware of and I find that highly unlikely.”
Why does this DNA match think your link was on her father's side, as opposed to her mother's?
Due to Ancestry indicating which side, or something else?
The other noticeable feature is that your matches are also in South Africa - some hanky panky possible there?
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MyHeritage stopped accepting uploads from other companies last year.
Zaph
If you have close DNA matches, it doesn’t matter whether or not they believe you are related. You most definitely are!
Have you looked at people who match both yourself and these “cousins”? They may have trees which might help you piece the families together.
In addition, if your grandfather was from Europe it might be worth uploading your raw data to My Heritage, which seems to be a popular DNA test for Europeans, and you might get some useful matches. I think it is still free to upload your Ancestry raw data but you may have to pay a little to unlock some of their tools, which is worth doing I think.
I’m sure you’ll get some great help here both with your paper trail and analysing your dna results.
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'One of Peter's aunts was believed to have been the first wife of Sir Ernest Oppenheimer.'
OK we can trace her, she was Mary Lina Pollak born in London 1886.
Her parents were Joseph Pollak born Austria and Emma Jane nee Goldmann born Cape Town South Africa ( Cape Colony)
So if the story is true it looks like any connection would be the Goldmann family of Cape Town
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But if Mary Lina was Peter's aunt, that would mean his mother would be one of Mary Lina's sisters. But even the oldest sister would be too young.
Maybe it was a great aunt
added
That wouldn't work - wrong generation
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OK it looks like The eldest Pollak girl Charlotte Emily married Herbert Oppenheimer's brother Louis, but it looks from an Ancestry tree they lived in England. So there may be a link somewhere to the Oppenheimer family.
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Joseph Pollak and Emma Jane Goldmann married in Germany on 4 Aug 1882. Marriage record on Ancestry. Her parents were Louis Goldmann and Caroline Amalie Goldmann
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Just been searching on Woolf Barnato principally in Italy, but something which may be a coincidence popped up in London.
Barnett Isaacs Barnato married Fanny Bees in Strand district in 1892.
They had three children:
Leah Primrose Barnato 1893
Isaac Henry Woolf Barnato 1894
Joel Woolf Barnato 1895
Barnett died on 14 Jun 1897 age 46 at sea. Last abode Queens Hotel, Cape Town, cause of death suicide by drowning. He was a financier.
Several coincidences with names and places, but no Italian connection, but Barnato does sound Italian, so maybe need to go back another generation.
What happened to the widowed Fanny?
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Barnett buried in London
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60526/records/2110
Fanny's full name was Frances Christina
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I think marriage to Fanny was his second. There's a baptism of a child Isabella Louisa Barnato in 1891, father Barrett and mother Isabel, in Southbourne near Bournemouth. Barnett's occupation is member of Cape Parliament, South Africa.
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I think marriage to Fanny was his second. There's a baptism of a child Isabella Louisa Barnato in 1891, father Barrett and mother Isabel, in Southbourne near Bournemouth. Barnett's occupation is member of Cape Parliament, South Africa.
The baby died shortly after baptism and Isabel the mother died later in 1891
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Fanny didn't remarry she stayed in Ascot area and died in 1943.
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Diana Barnato Walker's family tree on FamilySearch with many sources attached.
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/details/LZDL-QQX
Biography on Findagrave
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/83465931/diana-maitland-walker
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Barrett Barnato.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney_Barnato
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There are Wikipedia entries for Barnett Isaacs Barnato and his son Woolf.
I know that anything found on wikipedia should be taken with a large dose of salt, but Diana Barnato Walker is also mentioned as Woolf's daughter and she was an aviator.
Barney Barnato aka Barnett Isaacs is also referenced here:
https://shalomsussex.co.uk/barney-barnato-rags-to-riches/
The name Barnato apparently came from a stage name that he took when he was a music hall entertainer.
I'm wondering if the 'saga' has taken some snippets of information about people with the same or similar names and they have muddied the waters.
I haven't found any references to a Peter yet.
Nell
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It does appear the people we are finding did have connections with South Africa, but as Nell says we don't know what is connected to Jellybean.
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He was born Barnet Isaacs, so maybe Barnato is just a derivatie of his birth name.
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
ISAACS, BARNET HARRIS
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in EAST LONDON UNION Volume 02 Page 245
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I had thought he was originally Barnett Isaacs and added the Barnato later.
If Peter was the son of Barnett conceived on board ship during one of his crossings to South Africa, he would have to be at least a couple of years older.
Need to explore the DNA connections a bit more - the Myerson couple
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Coincidently (?) Barney/Barnet's brother Harry Isaacs Barnato had a wife (one of 3) named Rachel Pollock, one daughter (at least) called Lillie (Lilly) Barnato b. 1877 South Africa.
She married Samuel Garcia Asher in March qtr 1903 Paddington RD, but maybe she had a son before that? Interestingly there is a Leah Isaacs in the same record. Was that her birth name?
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Virginia Barnato.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/124999483/virginia-flory
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Info only1891 census--Fairleigh, Queens Road, Christchurch, Hampshire & Dorset, England
Isabel Barnato Head Married 25 Living on own means b Jersey, Channel Islands
Alice G Clark Sister 21 - b Freshwater, Isle of Wight
John Clark Brother 13 Scholar b Alderney, Channel Islands
Fred Burn Servant 18 Groom b Winchester
CLARKE, ALICE GOLDEN CLARK
GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in ISLE OF WIGHT Volume 02B Page 547
SS
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Info only1891 census--Fairleigh, Queens Road, Christchurch, Hampshire & Dorset, England
Isabel Barnato Head Married 25 Living on own means b Jersey, Channel Islands
Alice G Clark Sister 21 - b Freshwater, Isle of Wight
John Clark Brother 13 Scholar b Alderney, Channel Islands
Fred Burn Servant 18 Groom b Winchester
CLARKE, ALICE GOLDEN CLARK
GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in ISLE OF WIGHT Volume 02B Page 547
SS
That's Isobel the first wife who died late in 1891. Wonder what he was doing in Southbourne?
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1871
Henry Clarke Head 38 Sergant in the army b Stockbridge, Hampshire
Louisa Clarke Wife 30 - b Stockbridge, Hampshire
Henrietta Clarke Daughter 8 Scholar b Stockbridge, Hampshire
Frances L Clarke Daughter 7 Scholar b Portsmouth, Hampshire
Isabella Clarke Daughter 5 Scholar b Jersey, Channel Islands
Elizabeth Clarke Daughter 3 - Essex (Shoeburyness)
Alice G Clarke Daughter 1 b Isle of Wight, Hampshire
1881-42, Stockwell Road, Lambeth, London & Surrey, England
Isabela Clark Servant Single 17 Housemaid servant b Jersey, Channel Islands
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Worth a few bob at death.
SS
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Diamonds ;D
Could this be a connection between Barnato and Oppenheimer?
"In 1923, news began appearing in the British press about an agreement between Oppenheimer's Anglo-American company, DIAMANG, and Barnato Bros. regarding diamond mining in Angola. Barnato Bros., founded by Barney Barnato, an eccentric mining magnate who disappeared at sea in 1897, had been active in South African diamond exploration from the beginning and held shares in De Beers; at the time, it was led by Solomon Joel, one of the richest men in the world (Financial Times, 15/01/1923 and 10/04/1923)."
https://connectingportuguesehistory.org/items/show/100
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Diamonds ;D
Lots of newspaper reports of Barney Barnato and brother having interests in diamond, gold mines and banks in SA
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Worth a few bob at death.
SS
Woolf Joel was nephew . I did see something, disappeared now, about most estete left in trust for three surviving children, including Joel Woolf Barnato, who later removed name Joel by deed poll
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Barney Barnato was featured in Esther Rantzen's WDYTYA, His sister, Sarah, is her greatgrandmother.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/whodoyouthinkyouare/past-stories/esther-how-we-did-it_5.shtml
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Woolf Joel didn't live long after probate was awarded.
https://sahistory.org.za/dated-event/woolf-joel-killed-due-his-refusal-kidnap-president-paul-kruger
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The origins of the name Barnato
https://fragmentsof-history.com/2018/02/06/the-killing-of-bro-barney-barnato/
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If Jellybean is descended from the Barnado family they should have some Jewish ancestry showing up
on their DNA.
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Perhaps I missed it, but as far as I can tell there has been no mention at all of denominational records.
Have any of these been checked? What religion were these people?
Even if not online, as OP is in SA, should be able to access?
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If Jellybean is descended from the Barnado family they should have some Jewish ancestry showing up
on their DNA.
Also if Jellybean has a DNA connection to the Myerson family, there must be Jewish ancestry showing up on their DNA.
This needs to be confirmed.
Jellybean claimed DNA connection to
Maurice Harris MYERSON married Mildred ROTH in 1931
This was his 2nd marriage (Previous marriage to Rose KARNOFSKY in 1924 London)
Maurice Harris MYERSON born 1 April 1894 Dublin
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1894/02262/1850459.pdf
Maurice Harris MYERSON died 14 Sept 1975 Jo-burg Sth Africa.
Son of Hyman Henry MYERSON and Hilda Anna GOLDFOOT
They were married in the registry office in Dublin in 1891
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1891/10668/5887581.pdf
Children:
• Myer Calman Myerson 1892 Dublin (Michel)
• Morris Harris Myerson 1894 (Mosses)
• Marcus Louis Muerson 1896 Dublin (Levi)
• Albert Abraham Myerson Dublin 1899 (Abraham)
• Julius Myerson 1901 Dublin
• Rachel Sarah Myerson 1906 Dublin (Sarah)
The 1901 and 1911 Irish census shows that they are Jews
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPB2-1QRR?lang=en
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MyHeritage stopped accepting uploads from other companies last year.
Zaph
If you have close DNA matches, it doesn’t matter whether or not they believe you are related. You most definitely are!
Have you looked at people who match both yourself and these “cousins”? They may have trees which might help you piece the families together.
In addition, if your grandfather was from Europe it might be worth uploading your raw data to My Heritage, which seems to be a popular DNA test for Europeans, and you might get some useful matches. I think it is still free to upload your Ancestry raw data but you may have to pay a little to unlock some of their tools, which is worth doing I think.
I’m sure you’ll get some great help here both with your paper trail and analysing your dna results.
Thanks Zaph. I was not aware.
Great research everyone. Some fascinating family history uncovered.
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But have we actually found a definite link between Peter and Barnett Isaacs and his family?
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=873408.0
There is a previous query for Peter Carl on Rootschat.
Cathy
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=873408.0
There is a previous query for Peter Carl on Rootschat.
Cathy
So we've all spent hours going through the same process again.
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Jellybean is online now, I think we need to wait for them to post.
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Morning all,
Wow, I can't believe how much has come up.
I've just read through everything and here's my 2 cents:
Oppenheimer and Barnato are two very wealthy, powerful names which is why I have always thought my aunt's story had a touch of fancy and we always wondered about being related to Barney, but we could never quite get there.
Peter's mother apparently had the title of the Grand Duchesse of Higher and Lower Savoy and her brother was the Duke D'Avignon. Peter's grandfather was believed to be Louis Woolf Barnato and was the middle of three brothers.
As far as I know, the surname Barnato came from the crowds calling for Barney when his brother and he fought in the boxing ring "Barney-too, Barney too" - became Barnato...dunno.
I agree that the link to Mary Lina & Peter seems wrong timewise - Mary was only just a bit older than Peter himself. I came across a different surname for her though - Roubicek.
My aunt's saga mentions a Captain Jack Barnato, being with Rosalind.
Another note: there seem to be a lot of Joels and Woolfs and Sollys in the mix, which is where I got a bit muddled.
On Diana Barnato-Walker - my aunt once tried to visit her in the Uk but was turned away at the door apparently, as they would have been half-sisters (is that right?)...but maybe when you are famous like Diana, you probably have all sorts knocking on your door claiming to be family.
Yes, my DNA shows % Ashkenazi Jew.
Re this morning's post on previous enquiries on the same name - that was posted by family of Peter's wife Gladys Helen and I cannot access that familysearch link so I don't think hours have been wasted. I am "simply" trying to find documented, factual links that have not been influenced by my aunts recollections, which have seemingly made their way into legal documents and are now taken as fact, even though we have nothing to validate them with.
I am sorry if you think I have wasted your time, that was not my intention - I have just not been able to get answers for this over many years, so queries that I and others may have raised will inevitably come up. I apologise...but my question has not been answered yet and I will keep trying.
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The other thread had a specific date and location for Peter's birth. Is that not sufficient to locate birth documentation for him?
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Jellybean ' my DNA shows % Ashkenazi Jew. ' What %?
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As far as I can se the only facts we have are Peter's marriage record, Peter' death record and various DNA matches.
Images of the marriage record and the death registration are attached to an Ancestry tree. Both appear to have had later annotations, so am not sure what the original would look like.
I remember wasting a lot of time on a Rootschat thread several years ago, when the OP was basing their knowledge on a heavily annotated marriage certificate posted on someone else's tree. The tree owner had added place and dob to the name of the father of the bride or groom (can't remember which). The OP took this information as gospel and a lot of time was wasted in a fruitless search for this man.
According to the marriage record Peter (as Peter Barnato) was 33 on 21 Sept 1931, giving a birth date between 22 sept 1897 and 21 sept 1898
Peter (as Peter Carl Barnett)'s death was on 5 Aug 1964 death date and age was stated as 64, giving a birth date between 6 Aug 1899 and 5 aug 1900. This range is consistent with dob stated on death record of 20 sept 1899.
Which age is more likely to be right? Peter himself when he married or an informant (who doesn't appear to be a family member) after his death. Signature of informant attached
The death record says his birth was in Pretoria, his marriage record says Transvaal, which (for that time) would be consistent
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@ Jaywit - 5% Ashkenazi Jew: Eastern Europe / Russia
4% Ashkenazi Jew: Central and SE Europe
@Wexflyer - I can't open that but the only formal documentation I have for Peter Carl is his death certificate / his death notice includes information provided by my aunt who was there when he died but is unsubstantiated.
In SA, I have made application for a birth certificate with Home Affairs but as has been pointed out earlier on this forum, we are not that good with record keeping, especially pre-1900.
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Jellybean claimed DNA connection to
Maurice Harris MYERSON married Mildred ROTH in 1931
This was his 2nd marriage (Previous marriage to Rose KARNOFSKY in 1924 London)
According to an on line tree, Rose died in 1926.
If he didn't marry Mildred until 1931, I wonder who the Annie was, who accompanied him on the Armadale Castle from SA to Southampton arriving 8 June 1929. She was recorded as his wife.
Morris Myerson is about the same age as Peter, so if the connection is here, it would be a generation earlier than the uncommunicative DNA match said
The closest DNA match live in Johannesburg in South Africa as far as I know but comms has been ignored by her for a few years.
According to the test she is 1st cousin 1x removed or half 1st cousin, Paternal side, 5% shared DNA. She does not have a tree.
All she gave me is that “our dad's parents were Maurice and Mildred Myerson
My paternal grandfather, Maurice was one of 6 children. If you are our 1st or 2nd cousin, then it means that my father has/had a sibling that we were all unaware of and I find that highly unlikely.”
It might mean that Morris was the one with an unknown half sibling, not one of his children.
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This gives a bit of an explanation of % Jewish heritage.
https://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/tutorials/dna/how-a-dna-test-revealed-my-jewish-ancestry
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In SA, I have made application for a birth certificate with Home Affairs but as has been pointed out earlier on this forum, we are not that good with record keeping, especially pre-1900.
This website says birth registration in Transvaal didn't start until 1901
https://www.ancestors.co.za/birth-records-south-africa/
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@ Jaywit - 5% Ashkenazi Jew: Eastern Europe / Russia
4% Ashkenazi Jew: Central and SE Europe
The Myersons seem to trace back to Lithuania/ Russia. And Morris Myerson had an uncle (father's brother) called Barnett Myerson !
However before we start another wild goose chase, after emigrating to the USA he did not appear to leave. But of course he may have had a dalliance with a Grand Duchess as she and her brother, the Duke, were passing through Missouri on their way to South Africa for a holiday. ;D
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Ha ha - Wouldn't that be something?! I hate to say it, but am glad I'm not the only one flummoxed.
Thanks very much though
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' Peter's mother apparently had the title of the Grand Duchesse of Higher and Lower Savoy and her brother was the Duke D'Avignon. Peter's grandfather was believed to be Louis Woolf Barnato and was the middle of three brothers.'
Can anyone find a Duke and/or Grand duchess who were around at the right time? I'm struggling
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' Peter's mother apparently had the title of the Grand Duchesse of Higher and Lower Savoy and her brother was the Duke D'Avignon. Peter's grandfather was believed to be Louis Woolf Barnato and was the middle of three brothers.'
Can anyone find a Duke and/or Grand duchess who were around at the right time? I'm struggling
Mr Google says neither title exists. Savoy was not divided into upper and Lower, but there was a duke / grand duke of Savoy as a single duchy, but later became one of the titles of the king of Italy.
Earlier it was Peter's father not grandfather who was Louis Woolf.
I think the best way with this is through DNA. Jb should start a new thread on the DNA board. giving the top paternal matches with cM, just those attributable to Peter's ancestry not his wife.
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@LizzieL - sorry that was my error - my aunt wrote it as "My grandfather" ie Peter's father but I typed it here incorrectly. She was referring to Peter's father, not grandfather.
Noted re DNA. Thanks a million everyone, and if I happen to be linked to Barney or Oppenheimer or some sort of royalty, I could type "thanks a billion" :)
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I had seen the other thread but the link says Image Restricted. Anyone?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS74-TWYL?i=520
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I had seen the other thread but the link says Image Restricted. Anyone?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS74-TWYL?i=520
Same here.
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In SA, I have made application for a birth certificate with Home Affairs but as has been pointed out earlier on this forum, we are not that good with record keeping, especially pre-1900.
This website says birth registration in Transvaal didn't start until 1901
https://www.ancestors.co.za/birth-records-south-africa/
As I pointed out previously, this is ignoring denominational records. If Jewish, then synagogues may have records of birth, circumcision or mar mitzvah. If Christian, baptism.
Seems no effort has been made to look for such? For example, there can't have been many synagogues in Pretoria at the time.
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History of synagogues in Johannesburg.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Park_Synagogue_(Johannesburg)
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This is interesting, it says many came from Lithuania, the origins of the Myersons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_South_Africa
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Hi,
@Wexflyer - thank you! That's a novel idea & I will enquire re the denominational birth records on both sides (Catholic mother and Jewish father)
I understand that children born of a mixed religion union (Judaism / Christian) take the faith of the mother.
I was also wondering whether checking ship records for Union-Castle Line travel from UK to ZA in 1898-1900 would be worthwhile - can someone advise if that may be an option and where this info might be housed.
Thanks again.
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This is interesting...
"...A word about his marriage and descendants may be
quoted here. Barnato met his future wife at Kimberley
in 1874, and in 1875 they were secretly married by the
civil law. Mrs. Barnato was not a Jewess, and the
marriage was certain to be bitterly opposed by the
family. She was a most able, accomplished woman,
and adopted the Hebrew faith, in which the children of
course are brought up. The eldest, Leah Primrose,
born in 1893, was named after his mother, and his first
mining venture ; Isaac Henry, and Woolf Joel Barnato
are the younger children."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/121635356
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This is interesting...
"...A word about his marriage and descendants may be
quoted here. Barnato met his future wife at Kimberley
in 1874, and in 1875 they were secretly married by the
civil law. Mrs. Barnato was not a Jewess, and the
marriage was certain to be bitterly opposed by the
family. She was a most able, accomplished woman,
and adopted the Hebrew faith, in which the children of
course are brought up. The eldest, Leah Primrose,
born in 1893, was named after his mother, and his first
mining venture ; Isaac Henry, and Woolf Joel Barnato
are the younger children."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/121635356
So that is saying they married in 1875 and didn't have their first child until 1893. Not very likely.
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Fanny Bees was the mother of the children mentioned, she married Barney in London in 1892
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That's precisely why I think it's interesting. It's well known that this biographer was overly positive about Mr Barnato, so why would he make it up? Young lads tend to fall in love.
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But it implies that the three children that we know were Fanny's, were the those of the woman Barney married in 1875. Around 1891 he was with a woman in Bournemouth who had a baby who died aged about 2 or 3 weeks.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/271403152/isabel-louisa-barnato
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History of Kimberley.
https://www.britannica.com/place/Kimberley-South-Africa
So not started under that name until 1878.
I wonder what civil law there was before that date?
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But it implies that the three children that we know were Fanny's, were the those of the woman Barney married in 1875. Around 1891 he was with a woman in Bournemouth who had a baby who died aged about 2 or 3 weeks.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/271403152/isabel-louisa-barnato
Maybe the biographer didn't know the whole story, anyway it's odd that there is no addendum or erratum. I'm going to read the available biographies, the subject is very interesting!
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This is interesting...
"...A word about his marriage and descendants may be
quoted here. Barnato met his future wife at Kimberley
in 1874, and in 1875 they were secretly married by the
civil law. Mrs. Barnato was not a Jewess, and the
marriage was certain to be bitterly opposed by the
family. She was a most able, accomplished woman,
and adopted the Hebrew faith, in which the children of
course are brought up. The eldest, Leah Primrose,
born in 1893, was named after his mother, and his first
mining venture ; Isaac Henry, and Woolf Joel Barnato
are the younger children."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/121635356
As others have pointed out, this makes no sense.
What can sometime explain such stories is that they can be a conflation of two separate events or timelines. Or they can simply be dead wrong.
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This biography is available online and it makes sense to me.They couldn't have children until she was accepted by his family, or maybe because they didn't have money to start a family. Anyway, maybe that civil document or the passenger lists can be found.
https://gemology.se/gill-library/gemjewelry/Barnato_Barney_ie_Barnett_Isaacs_1852-1897_a_Memoir_Harry_Raymond_1898.pdf
"After breakfast I walked down to the club with him, and
his mind was still full of the children.
'Isn't it strange,; he said,
Fanny and I were married for eighteen years and no children,
and now we have' Miss Barnato' and Jack, and we must get back to London at once."
"Barnato was most fondly attached to his wife and children,
and they accompanied him in all his journeys to and from
London. In the earlier days, before the children came,
Mrs. Barnato accompanied her husband on his journeys to the
Hand and Capetown, when the only conveyance was for the
richest a cart or special coach, over rude trackways that an
English coachman would despair of."
"Barnato met his future wife at Kimberley in 1874, and in
1875 they were secretly married by the civil law. The
marriage was kept secret for some time, for Mrs. Barnato was
not of the Hebrews, and the marriage was certain to be
bitterly opposed by his family. However, Barnato had taken
his own way, as he generally did; he married the wife of his
choice, a most able, accomplished and clever woman, and the
family objections were overcome when Mrs. Barnato adopted
the Hebrew faith. The children have, of course, been brought
up in that faith.
The eldest child, the daughter named Leah Primrose, after
Bamato's mother and his first Transvaal mining venture, was
bom at 28 Park Lane on March 16, 1893.
The next child, a boy, named Isaac Henry Woolf, was born
at 36 Curzon Street, Mayfair, on June 7, 1894. He is
commonly called Jack, and is the hero of the bicycle.
The third and youngest child, a boy, named Woolf Joel,
was bom at Spencer House, St. James's Place, on September 27, 1895."
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It may actually be true.
His wife Fanny was born in South Africa, but she seems to have lived for a large part of her widowhood in Britain and she died at Ascot in 1943. She made a number of trips abroad and can be found on the passenger lists.
The report of her death in the newspapers says that she trekked to the diamond fields at Kimberley with her husband when she was 19. Her date of birth is variously given as 1856-59, depending on the source/record. It also said that her first home was in a tent in Kimberley, but she went on to be a celebrated hostess in the diamond fields.
The link I posted previously says that she and Barney Barnato were married in November 1892 at Chelsea Register Office. Barney and Fanny arrived in England from Cape Town in January 1892 and she travelled as Mrs Barnato.
The marriage in South Africa may well be true.
Nell
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Life is stranger than fiction!
The more I read about him the more I like him ;D
Barney Barnato.
Many years ago, Barney Barnato
rented a little house in one of the
frontier towns of South Africa. Barney
spent considerable in improving the
house, but he quarreled with the landlord
and decided to move. By inserting the
following advertisement in the local
paper, the prospective millionaire in some
measure got even with his landlord :
"Wanted, by a gentleman who agreed
to leave dwelling occupied by him in
condition is which he found it, 100,000
lively black beetles." Then followed
Barney's name and address.
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Bookmarking as I can't wait to hear more! Well done to all who have contributed to JB's quest.
Kit
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Fanny's sister Alice, although the father's last name and place of birth seem odd.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WDG-ZNL?treeref=GQ1S-LDC&lang=en
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OW18960625.2.242
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/150379749
A BARNATO ROMANCE.
Mrs Blackman, residing at 405 Perry
street, Cleveland, Ohio, U.S.A., claims to
be the daughter of Mr Barnato by a first
wife, whose maiden name was Anna
Estha. She says that her mother was
legally married to Mr Barnato, and lived
with him for 15 years. She then went to
Poland, and a separation took place later,
when her mother and herself came to
America. Mrs Blackman is about to
visit London to demand her interest in
the deceased millionaire's fortune. Alice
Holbrook, the well-known comic opera
singer (says the '"Washington correspond
dent of the London " Daily Chronicle ")
is the sister of Mr Barnato's wife. She
is now living in New York, and declares
the Blackman story from Cleveland to be
a fabrication. She asserts that Mr Barney
Barnato was never married before he
wedded her sister. The Holbrooks were
living in Kimberley at the time he
married, and Alice says that she remem
bers very well all the circumstances in
connection with the courtship and the
wedding. Two cigur-mukers in Boston,
Mr Barnett Meyers and Mr Wolf Meyers,
claim to be cousins of the dead man.
It might be true if they had married in 1875 ;D
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Seems to me that we have an abundance of red herrings to chase.
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Seems to me that we have an abundance of red herrings to chase.
I couldn’t agree more. It is verging on a comic opera.
Yet, the DNA link has been largely ignored.
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I couldn’t agree more. It is verging on a comic opera.
Quite!
Living in tents on the veld with multiple wives, while boinking grand duchesses in between performances of his vaudeville act....
You couldn't make this stuff up.
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I couldn’t agree more. It is verging on a comic opera.
Quite!
Living in tents on the veld with multiple wives, while boinking grand duchesses in between performances of his vaudeville act....
You couldn't make this stuff up.
That's the trouble you CAN make this stuff up ;D
SS
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Seems to me that we have an abundance of red herrings to chase.
I couldn’t agree more. It is verging on a comic opera.
Yet, the DNA link has been largely ignored.
The DNA match has been focusing on the Myerson side - but don't know why. The link has other ancestors.
The match is 5%, from DNA painter
64%Great-Great-Aunt / Uncle Half Great-Aunt / Uncle Half 1C 1C1R Half Great-Niece / Nephew Great-Great-Niece / Nephew
35%Half GG-Niece / Nephew † Half GG-Aunt / Uncle † 2C Half 1C1R 1C2R
The match has named her grandparents (through her father) as Morris / Maurice Myerson and Mildred (Roth). She is therefore one of the 3 daughters of that couple's only son.
Morris and Peter are near contemporaries, so likely that the match and Jb are near enough contemporary, so we can probably eliminate any of the great.. and great-great.. relationships.
We probably have to go back to at least great grandparents to find a link.
Assuming no endogamy, the match will have the normal 4 pairs of great grandparents- i.e 8 people who will have contributed to her DNA and need to be investigated.
Turning to Auntie's saga. We don't know when it was written or more importantly when she acquired this wealth of information. Was she an inquisitive child who wondered why she did not appear to have any grandparents. Her maternal gp's (Carstens) died in the 1920s, grandad was a carpenter originally from Cape Town and moved to Johannesberg. No sensational story there. But was she fed all sort of romantic stories about the paternal side, which an impressionable child might have believed? Was Peter illegitimate and didn't actually know who his parents (or his father) were? Was he estranged from them and didn't want to tell her about his real family? Had he really been born in the Transvaal (or more precisely Pretoria) while his mother was taking a holiday, just before the 2nd Boer war (which must have been simmering for ages) officially started.
Did he really spend his childhood elsewhere and return to SA as a adult? Is Peter Barnato his original name? Although Barney Barnato had died in July 1897 (which of course is more than 9 months before Peter's dob as stated on his death record (20/09/1899), the company continued and would be well known throughout SA even without the internet.
Jb has a total of 9% Jewish heritage, almost equal amounts from two different regions. If she tested with Ancestry she should be able to get an indication which side of the family this was from, it may not be from her father's side.
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Seems to me that we have an abundance of red herrings to chase.
I couldn’t agree more. It is verging on a comic opera.
Yet, the DNA link has been largely ignored.
I think there is a Jewish link through the Jews from Eastern Europe but if it was Barney Barnato who knows.
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Lizzie looking at newspapers on Find my Past there are reports from very soon after Barney's death claiming relationship to him.
Not uncommon when a millionaire dies. My family tried it on.
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"I think there is a Jewish link through the Jews from Eastern Europe but if it was Barney Barnato who knows"
The Myerson's appear to be the Jewish link or one of them. They are Jewish family from Lithuania. The original family name was Karnovsky, but the three of the sons became Myerson, possibly when/after they moved from Lithuania?
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"I think there is a Jewish link through the Jews from Eastern Europe but if it was Barney Barnato who knows"
The Myerson's appear to be the Jewish link or one of them. They are Jewish family from Lithuania. The original family name was Karnovsky, but the three of the sons became Myerson, possibly when/after they moved from Lithuania?
But how do we know the Myersons are where Jb's family and her DNA match are linked genetically? Could be on the match's mother's side.
Ror example: I have a 5.5% match. If I asked him who his dad's parents were and I was told William Douglas and Ada Louisa White. I could spend weeks / months trying to find a genetic link between myself and this couple and not find it, because there is none. My link to this match is through his mother's side. He is my second cousin. My maternal grandfather and his maternal grandfather were brothers.
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But how do we know the Myersons are where Jb's family and her DNA match are linked genetically? Could be on the match's mother's side.
Jb said in reply#7 "The closest DNA match live in Johannesburg in South Africa as far as I know but comms has been ignored by her for a few years.
According to the test she is 1st cousin 1x removed or half 1st cousin, Paternal side, 5% shared DNA. She does not have a tree.
All she gave me is that “our dad's parents were Maurice and Mildred Myerson
My paternal grandfather, Maurice was one of 6 children. If you are our 1st or 2nd cousin, then it means that my father has/had a sibling that we were all unaware of and I find that highly unlikely.”
I read that as the match was paternal to the Myersons, but maybe I'm reading that wrong? Could it mean Jb's paternal side, but the Myerson's maternal side, or visa versa?
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Sorry been AWOL but was travelling last week.
Tim, a DNA match on Ancestry (2nd–3rd Cousin | Paternal side Shared DNA: 120 cM across 6 segments) has advised “My South Africa connection is through relatives who migrated to Jo'burg from Dublin, Ireland, in the late 1930s as far as I know - this includes my grandfather whose name was, or became, Michael Myerson, who was a medical doctor, who moved again just before WWII to work in Cardiff, South Wales, with his wife, son and daughter. He lived in Cardiff for the rest of his life and died in the mid-1970s.”
Further to this, an ex-Search Angel has advised that “Michael's father's brother is the Barnett Myerson I mentioned in my email who moved to the US. He is the right "degree" away to be your great grandfather, but I haven't been able to confirm it.” She thinks that Myer C Myerson (1892-1973) is Michael Myerson mentioned above, thus his uncle would be a sibling of his father Hyman Karnovsky i.e. Barnett Myerson.
I am currently checking with Jewish authorities in JNB regarding possible registration but I don’t think he will have been registered as Virginia was Catholic, and he would have taken on her faith. I will contact the Catholic church to see if they have central registration of births or baptisms as I wouldn’t be able to pin down a church or diocese.
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Thanks to you all for your ongoing searches and info shared, it is appreciated. :)