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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: MrsSelfPub on Thursday 01 January 26 19:02 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone please help us get past a complete roadblock, the like of which we’ve not seen before?
Charles (Francis) McGuinness born possibly 1878 in Westminster, according to the 1921 census. However, we can’t find any birth records for him or his marriage to his wife: Gertrude Mary O’Morgan b1890. We think she was born in Gibraltar.
We are just looking for anything to try to get back further with him.
Many many thanks in advance.
Helen and Abbey
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Hi Helen and Abbey,
I've had a family in London who decided to change their names - not that I'm suggesting Charles has, but in a highly-populated area it can be tricky to be sure. The only way I managed to prove and develop a theory was through DNA. I'm presuming that you are descended from the couple, so if you (or the most recent descendant from them) have taken a DNA test, it is what I would suggest.
I've had a quick look and have found this possibility on the 1881 census:
Holborn Union Workhouse:
Charles McGuiness, Pauper - Inmate, 8 years old, Unknown Occupation, Unknown Birthplace
Age is slightly out though.
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I see in 1921 he is “not occupied for a living”
What is his occupation on the son’s birth certificate in 1917?
Also..on what record do you have ‘Gertrude’? Am only seeing Mary in 1921 & 1939
Answered later
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1911 has a Chas McGuinniss b c1873 Holborn who's a stoker in the navy. Given the age gap to his wife, he may have cut a few years off his age?
Might they have met and married in Gibraltar?
think this is the same chap in the workhouse, as there's a matching lad on the Training Ship Exmouth in 1888
Record states no parents, brother Alfred also in the union workhouse
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These two perhaps?
MCGUINESS, CHARLES ALFRED WARDEN
GRO Reference: 1873 S Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 749
MCINNIS, ALFRED THOMAS WARDEN
GRO Reference: 1876 D Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 824
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There is a workhouse admission in 1880
Selina McGuiness, laundress b 1850
Charles b 1872
Alfred b 1876
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Additional child, in the 1879 workhouse admission
MCGINNISS, EMMA ELIZABETH WARDEN
GRO Reference: 1875 M Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 812
Added, just realised looks like father is on that admission too.
Alfred b about 1848
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There are several workhouse admissions for Selina in addition to the one I mentioned.
She is admitted with Alfred born abt 1849 and the two boys so might be worth exploring more.
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Charles' dob from his navy records is 27 May 1872 - and he served until 1917 when discharged with deafness attributable to service
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Need that 1917 birth cert to say something like “retired seaman” or “ navy pensioner”
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Was Mary born 13 January 1890 on the 1939 Register, living in Surrey?
Abit odd. There is a birth reg in Gibraltar of a Gertrude Mary McGuinness, born 13 January 1888
Father Francis
Mother Mary, maiden name Morgan
Image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSN3-S3NX-1
The son's birth reg in 1917
MCGUINNESS, CHARLES FRANCIS LEWIS
Mother's Maiden Surname: O'MORGAN
GRO Reference: 1917 M Quarter in ST. PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 40
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There is a birth reg in Gibraltar of a Gertrude Mary McGuinness, born 13 January 1888
Four of her sisters born in Gibraltar are together in Deptford in 1911.
Headed up by Kathleen.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWRH-BCV
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Well, isn’t that interesting!
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1939 register the widow Mary McGuiness has DOB 13 January 1890
On her probate she is named Gertrude Mary McGuiness
There is a Gertrude Mary McGuiness born in Gibraltar on 13 January 1888
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6269-K6YM?lang=en
?? Is it possible that Gertrude Mary and Charles didn’t marry, and for some reason went by her surname McGuiness.
I think you need to know what is on the birth rego, and marriage rego, for Charles Francis Lewis McGuinness.
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Children of Francis McGuiness and Mary Morgan - Born in Gibraltar
(Both parents were Irish. Father was colour Serj 1/ 4 regiment -> canteen steward / manager -> pensioner)
• Kathleen 1875
• Mabel 1876 – died 1884
• Male 11 Oct 1879
• Norah Alice 1881
• Winnifred 1883
• Mary Frances 1885
• Gertrude Mary born 13 January 1888
• Edith Ellen 1889
• John Hugh 1891
• Aileen 1894
• Agnes 1897
1878 census for Gibraltar
Also lists a couple of children born in England
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6PVX-CLXP?lang=en
:- Francis Thomas 1872; Henry 1873
BIRTH REGOS
MCGUINNESS, FRANCIS THOMAS Mother - MORGAN
GRO Reference: 1872 D Quarter in PORTSEA ISLAND Volume 02B Page 415
MCGUINNESS, HENRY Mother - MORGAN
GRO Reference: 1873 D Quarter in PORTSEA ISLAND Volume 02B Page 423
Kathleen’s birth 1875 mentions parents’ names (Francis McGuiness and Mary Morgan) and maternal grandparents – Thomas Morgan and Bedina Hughes)
Mary McGuiness age 42, wife of Francis, death in Gibraltar 11th April 1897
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSN3-33VG-G?view=index&personArk=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3A62XL-HMZ5&cc=5000043&lang=en&groupId=M99Q-HP5
Francis McGuiness age 65 death in Gibraltar - 12 oct 1906
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSNS-T9VB-T?view=index&personArk=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3A62XV-WWCF&action=view&lang=en&groupId=M99Q-HTP
MARRIAGE 1869 DOVER
Mary MORGAN to Francis McGUINNESS
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Four of her sisters born in Gibraltar are together in Deptford in 1911.
Headed up by Kathleen.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWRH-BCV
Whole lot more of the McGuiness family born in Gibraltar in 1921 census in Wandsworth at 73 Larkhall Rise, Clapham.
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Complicated but great finds - well done.
Added
There are a couple of military records (Fold3 and FindMyPast) for Francis McGuinness , born abt 1839, Derry Grimen, Fermanagh, 4 Foot, number 4162
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Is Charles McGuinness on the electoral registers at all? :-\
He doesn't come up on a free search in 1921 (6 Albert Street, St Pancras), Mary does.
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Charles is with Mary and son in 1921 census.
Age 42 and 6 months, born Westminster, married, not occupied for a living.
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Wow!!! Thank you ALL so much for this. We feel like we should be able to move forward now. We’ve ordered a birth certificate to for Charles Francis Lewis McGuinness b.1917.
Helen and Abbey
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Charles is with Mary and son in 1921 census.
Age 42 and 6 months, born Westminster, married, not occupied for a living.
He’s not on the electoral register though – just Mary at that address
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He’s not on the electoral register though – just Mary at that address
Ditto 1920
Mary McGuinness a local government voter only!
Qualification = O (Occupation)
Perhaps the Lewis name given to her son might be a clue of some sort? :-\
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When the son married in 1944, he recorded his deceased father’s occupation as “M. D.”
Was he inventing that?
I can think of a few possibilities for the meaning of MD. - medical doctor? musical director? managing director? ….?
When Charles Mc Guinness signed the 1921 census, in my opinion, his elegant signature belongs to one who is well educated, confident, and familiar with signing.
Added - worth noting the 1944 marriage was in the Corpus Christie Church, Westminster. Roman Catholic.
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When Charles Mc Guinness signed the 1921 census, in my opinion, his elegant signature belongs to one who is well educated, confident, and familiar with signing.
But was he so familiar with signing as McGuinness :-\
I did see the actual return, wasn't it filled out in large block capitals? Who would do that, not sure how normal it was?
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I did see the actual return, wasn't it filled out in large block capitals? Who would do that, not sure how normal it was?
Yes it was filled out most beautifully and clearly in capitals.
Who would do that?
Maybe, someone who was used to writing in that manner - had a clerical job where clarity in written documents was important.
It would be good to hear back from Helen and Abbey with what profession is recorded on his son's birth certificate.
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Could the marriage of Alfred and Celina be this one?
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1864 (>99%)
McGuiness Alfred Arthur Bethnal Gn 1c 570
Moss Celina Ann Bethnal Green 1c 570
Edited: not relevant.
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Maybe, someone who was used to writing in that manner - had a clerical job where clarity in written documents was important.
Good thinking!
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Thanks all! Abbey and I will let you know as soon as the certificate arrives next week 😄
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A bit more information for Francis McGuiness and wife Mary Morgan
1871 census Aldershot Hampshire
1st Battalion, 4th Kings Own Royal Regiment
• Francis McGuinness, married, 33, born Ireland, soldier – colour serjeant
• Mary McGuinness, married, 17, born Ireland, wife.
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Thanks all! Abbey and I will let you know as soon as the certificate arrives next week 😄
You didn't order a digital image which is cheaper, and available for immediate download?
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Maybe Charles was adopted by the McGUINNESS family (maybe he was a LEWIS?) and later on married his step sister Gertrude Mary McGuinness, and she used her mother's maiden name (sort of) to register their son given that they were not legally married?
The couple Francis McGUINNESS and Mary MORGAN seems to have had a daughter, Mary, who died an infant in 1871 in Farnham.
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
MCGUINNESS, MARY MORGAN
GRO Reference: 1871 M Quarter in FARNHAM Volume 02A Page 93
Name: Age at Death (in years):
MCGUINNESS, MARY 0
GRO Reference: 1871 M Quarter in FARNHAM Volume 02A Page 56
I've noticed that there is a Norah MORGAN living with the MCGUINNESS in London in the 1921 Census, but I don't have full access to the records. Is she their sibling Norah Alice b. Gibraltar 1881 or someone else?
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MrsSelfPub,
Do you have a DOD for Charles (Francis) McGUINNESS?
I don't have access to Ancestry UK but I've noticed that most trees have his DOD as 1944 (I assume it's because of his son's marriage certificate of 1944 saying his father was deceased).
IF he was originally Charles LEWIS, there is an interesting death record albeith with a problem on FreeBMD UK.
Deaths Sep 1939 (>99%)
Lewis Charles 60 Westminster 1a 445
"The expected page range for this district is 458 to 496"
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?r=179209803:1692&d=bmd_1766976269
LEWIS, CHARLES 60
GRO Reference: 1939 S Quarter in CITY OF WESTMINSTER Volume 01A Page 445
Judging by another death record, he could have died in 1938.
Deaths Sep 1938 (>99%)
GORHAM Charles 60 Westminster 1a 444