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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: GeoffTurner on Thursday 01 January 26 05:55 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
I am an Australian descendant of Elizabeth Burrell (1781-1869) who married John Simmonds or Symonds at St John's, Newcastle, in 1798. They had five children, all baptised at All Saints, Newcastle:
Elizabeth born 3 Dec 1798 bapt 3 Mar 1799.
Mary born 13 Mar 1801 bapt 14 Nov 1802.
Jane born 7 Dec 1805 bapt 17 Aug 1806.
William Oliver born 24 Feb 1808 bapt 16 Oct 1808.
Ann born 23 Dec 1810 bapt 8 Sept 1811.
In 1813 Elizabeth nee Burrell was found guilty of having stolen "a piece of silk handkerchiefs" and transported to Australia for 7 years. I am descended from one of her Australian children.
Recently I have been trying to trace what happened to her English children, who she never saw again. I have followed the family of her eldest child, Elizabeth, down to her living descendants, two of whom now live in Australia. I have been in touch with one of these family members in England and one in Australia.
Mary's family is a work in progress and I fear the relevant Ancestry trees for them might be less reliable.
I have found very little on the families of Jane and Ann.
I have been told that William Oliver Simmonds/Symonds died in 1812, at the age of four. But I have not been able to find a burial for him. It may be that the burial is included in summaries to which I do not have access because of my Australian membership of Ancestry.
I wondered if anyone might be able to support that claim of a supposed 1812 burial with documentary evidence? I would be most grateful, as ever.
Geoff Turner
Brisbane.
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Northumberland and Durham Family History Society has this burial
William Oliver Simmons, son of John, a basket maker, buried 31 January 1812, Ballast Hills Primitive Methodist, aged 4
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I haven’t found the burial but—in case you don’t have it—this is a full transcript of the baptism:
16 Oct 1808 William Oliver Simmons, born 24 Feb, 2nd son of John Simmons (basketmaker, native of Morpeth, Northumberland) by his wife Elizabeth Burrell (daughter of William Burrell, maltman, [native] of this Parish)
This states that William Oliver was the 2nd son. I have found all of the other baptisms but have not found a candidate for the implied 1st son. From the dates of the others it seems most likely that the missing birth would have been between Mary and Jane.
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update: found this at FindMyPast
First name(s) William Oliver
Last name Simmons
Birth year 1808
Age 4
Death year 1812
Burial year 1812
Burial date 31 Jan 1812
Relationship Son of
Relative's first name(s) John
Relative's last name Simmons
Denomination Non Conformist
Description Ballast Hills Non Conformist
Place Newcastle upon Tyne, Ballast Hills Primitive Methodist
County Northumberland
Country England
Notes RelativeNotes=baskett maker
Archive Tyne & Wear Archives
Document type Parish Registers
Northumberland & Durham Family History Society reference 8916348
Record set Northumberland Burials
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Burials
Collections from England, Great Britain
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Re the “missing” first son. Might the first son have been an unbaptised stillbirth or infant death, do you think? So William would be the second birth but first baptism of a son?
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Re the “missing” first son. Might the first son have been an unbaptised stillbirth or infant death, do you think? So William would be the second birth but first baptism of a son?
Yes, I had the same thought.
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Thanks to you all for your help.
Geoff
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One more quick one. John Millward Thompson. Died in Australia in 2006. Family says they celebrated his birthday on 11 November. Grave says he was born in 1914. His brother was born at Chester le Street in 1917, so John was probably born there as well. Does anyone have access to a document showing John was born at Chester le Street on 11 Nov 1914? I don't have access to the 1921 census because of my Ancestry membership limitations. I couldn't find it in the other databases to which I have access. Thanks, Geoff
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What are the names of others who might be expected to be with him in 1921?
Not seeing any John Millward THOMPSON in GRO births.
there is this one - No Millward
Births Dec 1914 (>99%)
Thompson John Dunn Chester le S. 10a 1213
I do see a John THOMPSON born Chester-le-Street age 6 yrs & 7 months in 1921, but I need more clues.
he has a brother Stanley 3 yrs 8 months. Perhaps this birth?
Births Dec 1917 (>99%)
Thompson Stanley Dunn Chester-le-S. 10a 889
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Mother Elizabeth Hannah Thompson (nee Dunn) 1887-1917
Father George William Thompson 1880-1967
Children
Elsie Millward Thompson 1909-1976
Olive Thompson 1911-2000
John Millward Thompson 1914-2006
Stanley Thompson 1917-1994.
The mother died on 1 Dec 1917 following the birth of Stanley on 8 Oct 1917 and the family story is that she died in childbirth (or apparently from the complications). I don't have a registered cause of death. I am relying on family members' recollections and research to put that together (with some family photos) but I would like to get some documents to prove the details are correct.
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Ok, so that one I found is correct. Just no Millward. He must have added that for effect when he was older 😀
They are at 9, Elm Street, Chester Le Street, Durham, England
And two younger children to new wife.
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Millward is a family name and occurs frequently down the years. They might just not have bothered including that in the registration. Would the "Dec" refer to the December quarter, and the 11 Nov birthdate might be correct?
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Millward is a family name and occurs frequently down the years. They might just not have bothered including that in the registration. Would the "Dec" refer to the December quarter, and the 11 Nov birthdate might be correct?
Yes, it is the December quarter. You could always buy the digital download of the birth to confirm
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Yes, I see that now. Silly question. The same applies to the Stanley Thompson birth.
In Australia it is possible to get a digital death certificate showing cause of death. Does that apply in the UK as well. Would I get that from the Archives? (I am thinking of the mother's death.)
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I have four children by the first wife. What can you find about younger children and a new wife?
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I don't get access to the 1921 census, just the older ones. And the 1939 pre-war headcount.
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Gladys Thompson Daughter Female 1919 1 Chester Le Street, Durham, England - -
Norman Thompson Son Male 1920 - Chester Le Street, Durham, England - -
May Aiken Step-daughter Female 1912 9 Chester Le Street, Durham, England
Wife is
Hannah Thompson Wife Female 1887 34 Washington, Durham, England Home Duties, At Home
So this marriage.
Marriages Dec 1918 (>99%)
Thompson George W Hannah Aitken Chester-le-S. 10a 952
Births of Gladys and a Roman suggest her maiden name is something like Woodmass
So that narrows down the death for wife 1 considerably. I am having trouble finding it
You can order births and deaths from the GRO site as digital downloads for £3. Unfortunately not marriages. Will hunt for other evidence for that,
Added…possibly the surname is Woodmansey
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A tree on Ancestry has Elizabeth Hannah's death as 1 Dec 1917
There is a photo of grave stone.
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So Hannah Woodmass married Mr Aiken, had May, that marriage ended, Mrs Aiken married the newly widowed George Thompson, they had Gladys in 1919 and Norman in 1920.
I found the grave of Elizabeth (first wife) in the Ropery Lane Cemetery, death Dec 1917. If the second wife was having his children in 1918, that would have to be right.
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Her grandson has a tree, that is probably what you found. I have discovered he is my fifth cousin, both descendants of the family mentioned in the initial question.
Thanks for all your help -- and your patience!
Geoff
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Birth THOMPSON, GLADYS WOODMASSEY
GRO Reference: 1919 D Quarter in CHESTER LE STREET Volume 10A Page 1333
Birth THOMPSON, SELBY WOODMASSEY
GRO Reference: 1919 D Quarter in CHESTER LE STREET Volume 10A Page 1333
Death of Selby.
THOMPSON, SELBY age 1
GRO Reference: 1921 J Quarter in CHESTER LE STREET Volume 10A Page 528
Birth THOMPSON, NORMAN WOODMANSEY
GRO Reference: 1921 J Quarter in CHESTER LE STREET Volume 10A Page 1332
Births Jun 1923 (>99%)
Thompson Russell Woodmassey Chester-le-S. 10a 1085
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Just a couple of updates. There was a second son that we didn't have a baptism for, and we concluded that he would have been born between Mary in 1801 and Jane in 1805, and perhaps didn't live long enough to be baptised. In fact he was baptised John and we found his burial:
John Simmons burial 28 Jan 1805 age 6 months son of John Simmons basket maker.
I got the death cert I mentioned, of my cousin's grandmother, from the GRO. A first for me. It was a very smooth operation and much quicker and cheaper than here in Australia, and it showed she died from acute appendicitis, general peronitis and cardiac failure. At age 30, less than two months after giving birth. Which certainly sounds childbirth-related.
I have spoken in detail to a member of the Thompson family who emigrated to Australia in 1951, completely oblivious to the fact that they were following in their ancestor's footsteps, although in very different circumstances. They were fascinated to hear the story and the woman I spoke to was grateful that I had taken the trouble to contact her, because she always though she had no relatives in Australia. The family had traced their story back as far as Elizabeth Burrell's daughter Elizabeth Symonds/Simmons, but the story had been a complete mystery beyond that.
I am continuing on with the second daughter, Mary, who had at least one daughter. The two boys died young. And the other two girls probably married and got lost under their married names. But I'll keep at it.
Thanks again for all your help.
Geoff