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Research in Other Countries => South Africa => Topic started by: Ratty2 on Monday 29 December 25 05:03 GMT (UK)
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Looking for John Orme whose birth i have yet to locate, and whose death could be 16 Dec 1885 perhaps in Victoria Australia.
His full name might be Frederick John Orme, and his wife may be Eliza Jane Welch; they married in Victoria Australia in 1897.
Two children found: Charles William Orme (1856-1939) and another Fred John Orme (1871-1918) who married Sarah Smith c1857 (Reg number 1633/1857 Victoria Australia registrar).
The younger Fred John Orme married Amy Lucy Helena Orme. The newspaper reported their wedding as : 'HARDIMAN—ORME. Old Sol declined to lend his countenance, but that i no way marred the happiness of the wedding celebrations for the marriage of Miss Amy Orme, daughter of Mrs. Orme and the late Mr. John Orme, of Melbourne and South Africa, with Mr. Jack Hardiman (late A.I.F.), son of Mr. and Mrs Robert Hardiman, of East Malvern.
The wedding took place at All Saints' Church, East St. Kilda, on November 17 1897, Rev. J. Jones officiating.'
It's the reference to 'late of South Africa' that I am especially interested in, rather than the Australian side of the reference.
There is no reference to Mr John Orme's death in Victoria Australia, that I can find.
looking forward to your responses.
Thank you
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Looking for John Orme whose birth i have yet to locate, and whose death could be 16 Dec 1885 perhaps in Victoria Australia.
His full name might be Frederick John Orme, and his wife may be Eliza Jane Welch; they married in Victoria Australia in 1897.
You have a problem. ::)
Alive in 1897 to marry, but dead years earlier in 1885.
I am not clear about who you are looking for.
You seem to have quite a bit of jumbled information.
You should get some useful information about John from the birth certificate of the son born in 1871,
Do you have it? What does it say?
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There is a Frederick John Orme birth registered in Victoria in 1872. father is named Frederick. Mother is Ellen James.
he was the one who died in 1913 in Adelaide.
he married in 1896 in Perth to Emily Louise Elizabeth Hurst
Probate documents here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLRL-SX3S?lang=en
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Maybe some of your dates need another look.
The wedding took place at All Saints' Church, East St. Kilda, on November 17 1897, Rev. J. Jones officiating.'
Thank you
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/146468379?searchTerm=%22hardiman%20orme%22~10
HARDIMAN Jno
ORME, Amy Lucy Helena
1923
10452/1923
Sue
ADDING. Amy Date of death: 29 Jan 1990.
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The John Orme who married Eliza Jane Welch was born in 1865 in Victoria and died in 1918.
Probate document here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLR2-1XHQ?lang=en
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Re--Reply #2 Neale1961
Frederick ORME of Bendigo died aged 67 in 1901.
Death Notice Fred Orme 1901
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/186121120?searchTerm=%22frederick%20orme%22~2
His will is digitised and his wife was Ellen. https://prov.vic.gov.au/explore-collection/explore-topic/wills-and-probates
Their son was Frederick J ORME, sub inspector of police at Western Australia. Accused of theft.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/80864088?searchTerm=%22sub%20inspector%20orme%22~2
Sue
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Essentially an index - papers available on application to NAARS
http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm300ds?20251229124355BCEE4140&RH=00000002
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Probates can be viewed on FamilySearch
a. John Orme 1918
b.. Frederick John Orme - 1913
I haven't checked them out
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FamilySearch has a 1902 travel record of Fred J Orme, age 30, married sailing from Melbourne to Durban.
Also a travel record of Ormes and Welches (listed together) sailing for Capetown - 1900. The original identifies London as destination, but transcript has Capetown.
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I think what Ratty2 is saying is:
John Orme died in 1885.
Fred Orme married 1897.
At some stage John travelled to South Africa.
Question is, did he die there? Appears one Frederick James Orme died in Natal in 1913.
DEPOT NAB
SOURCE 1/LDS
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 3/4/1/3
SYSTEM 03
REFERENCE L2879/19/13
PART 1
DESCRIPTION COURTS DEPARTMENT: TESTATE ESTATE OF FREDERICK JOHN ORME.
STARTING 19130000
ENDING 19130000
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DEPOT NAB
SOURCE MSCE
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 0
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 4251/1918
PART 1
DESCRIPTION ORME, JOHN. SSP ORME, ELIZA JANE (BORN WELCH).
STARTING 1918
ENDING 1919
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This maybe a relation https://www.graves.eggsa.org/kwazulunatal/DBN-SOUTH/stellawood/O%20-%20Surnames%20__%20Vanne%20-%20O/ors/DSC02845.JPG
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Or these https://www.graves.eggsa.org/kwazulunatal/DBN-SOUTH/stellawood/O%20-%20Surnames%20__%20Vanne%20-%20O/ors/DSC02847%20-%20Jane%20Smart%20Orme%20died%207%20June%201983.JPG
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Thank you everyone for clarifying my muddled and mistaken and erroneous first entry.
So we now know that John Orme was born at Seymour, Aus 1865, married Eliza Welch 1897 at Heidelberg, Vic; had three children incl Amy, Clifford and Ernest.
John and his wife migrated to Durban, SA in 1902 as an engineer. At some point they returned to Victoria Australia where John died in 1918, but his Probate is in Durban 1919.
Ernest Wheeley, their son, stayed in SA, married Jane Smart there and had children. He died 1967 and his wife Jane died in 1987
Have I got that correct so far?
Thank you
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Ratty, Be sure to view John Orme's FULL Estate File for all the detail.
There are 3 pages.
You need to use the arrow on the right side to turn the pages
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLR2-1XHQ?lang=en
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There is also a large military file for John Orme at the Australian National Archives. (71 pages)
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Gallery151/dist/JGalleryViewer.aspx?B=7996978&S=2&N=71&R=0#/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=7996978&T=P&S=1
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Thanks Neale, yes got the 3 pages. Will do the military file later today.
Appreciate your time
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Thanks pampeo
Yes looks like descendants, will check it later.
Appreciate your help
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The link to John Orme’s military papers that I posted above will take you to his service during WW1.
It mentions that he also served during the Boer War. I would have thought that there might have been some record of his service in the Boer War at NAA, but I didn’t see any.
However there are numerous newspaper reports which tell and interesting story -----
THE CASE OF JOHN ORME.
We have received a pamphlet relating to “The case of John Orme,” which, it is said, is
shortly to be brought before the Federal Parliament. Orme was: a Victorian railway engine driver, who according to the opinion of a Melbourne solicitor who has investigated his case, Is entitled to substantial reparation for having been harshly heated by the military authorities in South Africa during the war, in having been deported as a result of a charge which was never legally proved, notwithstanding that he had rendered arduous and patriotic service.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/117964628?searchTerm=%22John%20Orme%22%20AND%20Africa
Mentioned in the House of Representtives
The Case of John Orme.
Sir John Quick asked that attention be paid to the complaint of Mr. John Orme
that he had been treated unfairly by the British war authorities.
Mr. Frazer promised to have the matter looked into.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5214272?searchTerm=%22John%20Orme%22%20AND%20Africa
Mr John Orme, a Victorian, whose grievances against the War Office in connection with the South African-War- were 'recently mentioned in Parliament, left- on Saturday, for London to try and secure an inquiry int0 his case. He claims that he -was wrongfully convicted and imprisoned, and that he was improperly removed from South Africa. The Federal and Victorian Governments are interesting , themselves in, his case.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/200256279?searchTerm=%22John%20Orme%22%20AND%20Africa
BOER WAR INCIDENT.
LONDON Nov. 2
Colonel Seely) (Under Secretary for War), in reply to a question by Mr H P. Croft,
member for Christchurch in the House of Commons to-day, said the War Office had
no intention of reopening the case of John Orme, an Australian, who was imprisoned
during the war in South Africa, and deported from the country.
John Orme was at one time a member of the Victorian police force He served in South Africa during the Boer war, and was arrested for an alleged offence, sentenced to a term of imprisonment, and later was deported from South Africa. He wrote a pamphlet, which last year was circulated amongst members of the Commonwealth and State Parliaments. His statement was that he had been unjustly dealt with, and he asked that redress be given to him The case was mentioned in the House of Representatives by Sir John Quick and the Defence authorities wrote, to the Imperial War Office on the subject.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11629478?searchTerm=%22John%20Orme%22%20AND%20Africa
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That's brilliant.
I'll take Time to download and digest.
Muchly appreciated
David
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Sounds like a Breaker Mirant episode again.
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Sounds like a Breaker Mirant episode again.
I was thinking along the same lines, except Morant was executed.
Let's make a movie! :)
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Children of John ORME and Eliza Jane WELCH
Ernest Wheeley ORME born 11 May 1898 Melbourne
• Married 27 June 1923 to Jane Smart HEGGIE (2 sons born in Australia)
• Died 1967 South Africa
Amy Lucy Helena ORME born 18 Dec 1900 Melbourne
• Married 1923 to John HARDIMAN
• Died 20 Jan 1990
Clifford John ORME born 1904 Melbourne
• Married 1929 to Evelyn Anna PERRY
• Died 1961 Melbourne
John Orme was the son of
William Wheeley ORME born 1827 Old Swinford, Worcestershire, England
• Married 1850 Geelong to Amelia Elizabeth JEFFERY
• Died 1885 Burwood Melbourne
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/70390894?searchTerm=%22William%20Wheeley%20ORME%22
- Inquest
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/569662FC-F1BD-11E9-AE98-09EA95E99EDA?image=1
His widow Amelia ORME died in 1888
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/195991117?searchTerm=ORME
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Hey Neale1961
That's outstanding work.
Great stuff
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Let me know what other "stuff" you are looking for related to this family.
I'm happy to do some genealogy hunting. :)
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I will,
I'm just preoccupied this month with family and stuff!!
Besides which I am NOT addicted! I can stop anytime my wife tells me to.😅
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I have been looking more for John Orme’s Boer War Case file.
There are 2 files available from NAA, not yet digitised, but you can request copies.
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Cheers
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As a point of interest, Clifford John ORME was an artist of note in Australia.
A google search will show some of his work.
Sue
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Gee thanks Sue, it's getting better and better