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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: oldohiohome on Thursday 25 December 25 21:52 GMT (UK)
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The will of my gr gr gr grandfather, Joseph Gratton, is dated 3 August 1829, Greater Barlow. He died the following year on 4 February 1830. I have a few questions about it, most of them because I am not familiar with English wills.
1) In his will Joseph says "Next I give and devise (with the approbation of His Grace the Duke of Rutland) the good will and tenant rights of my farm at Brendwood Gate to my son Joseph Gratton ... " Why does he include that phrase referring to the Duke of Rutland?
2) As mentioned, he leaves his farm to his son Joseph. He mentions a deceased son Thomas, who would have been older than Joseph, according to a tree at ancestry. But, also according to that tree, Joseph [Senior] had another son, George, who was older than his son Joseph. Why would he not leave the farm to the oldest surviving son? What might that tell me about George? What does it tell me about the estate? Note: I have not yet verified the information on the tree.
3) Joseph signed as Joseph Gratton, His X Mark. Does that mean he could not write as I have seen elsewhere, or was that the formal way people signed their will?
4) I have been able to find the first two pages of the will, which includes everything down to a statement by the witnesses that they have subscribed their names. But that is all I have. Does anyone have access to a possible third page with the witnesses names and whatever follows? If so, could you transcribe and post it? I don't think a transcription violates any copyright, but if it does, just say so.
Thank you.
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1) The farm apparently belonged to the Duke of Rutland, and Joseph Gratton was his tenant. Tenantright is a concept of added value created by the tenant. At a change of tenancy it is valued, and the incoming tenant pays the "offgoing" tenant a capital sum, separately from the rent due to the landlord. In this case the tenantright is being given to the son as a bequest. Sons frequently took over their father's tenancy, but it was not a right, and depended upon the goodwill of the Duke to allow the tenancy to be transferred.
2) Farms often passed to younger sons because older sons tended to have acquired their own tenancies earlier and were already settled elsewhere. Younger sons often stayed on the family farm and assisted their father.
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Thank you very much. I will make a note of both those points.
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Further detail:
Tenantright may consist of:
Assets valued when the tenant entered, such as fittings in the house and buildings.
Improvements made by the current tenant, including construction of field drains, new fencing, gates etc.
"Live and dead stock": animals, hay, straw and other harvested crops on the premises.
Part-grown crops in the fields, ploughing completed, manure and lime added to fields during the last few years etc. etc.
There were deductions made for "dilapidations" where items were in a less good condition than when the tenancy began.
Tenancies normally changed hands at certain dates in the year, but a valuation for probate would be slightly different.
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So could the offgoing tenant ask the incoming tenant for more for the land than he paid when he bought it?
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The valuations were conducted by professional valuers. The tenant could point out discrepancies and in theory someone could ask for a second opinion but I don't think that happened often. There would be another fee charged by a second valuer who would have the incoming valuation to refer to. It would not surprise me if the Rutland estate office still has copies as well.
The reason I know about this is because I have followed various farms tenanted by my family through a collection which consists of about 900 hardbacked notebooks approx. 1840-1920, accumulated by a valuer's business which had taken over two others, and eventually deposited them in a local archive c1984.
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Some records for the Duke of Rutland came under Belvoir Castle and it seems the records are at more than one archive.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_dss=range&_ro=any&_q=%22Belvoir+Castle%22
The transfer may be listed in the:-
Court Rolls if they have survived or the
Manor Rentals (depending upon the exact type of Tenure or holding)
Also look to see if the Transfer is listed in the:-
Copyhold Book, sometimes called the Admissions Book (if it has survived for the time period)
The Book of Fines or Fines Book (if it has survived)
If the Landowner / Manor Records have survived for that date and place you should be able to work out if this was a transfer of a:-
Rented property
Leased property (Manor Leases seen at another Manor were 25 years, but they vary)
Copyhold property (but not Freehold)
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Not sure if answered, but leaving his mark would strongly suggest he could not sign his name.
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I have seen the Tenant right reference in a Scottish Will saying Three Sisters had the Tenant right of their Mother's Freehold house (Mother owned her house outright). In that instance it meant I bequeath or give to my daughters my house ...
But because your transfer needs the Approval of the Landowner or Lord and you or the Will have not mentioned Copyhold, then without an examination of the Landowner or Manor records it is not always possible to confirm the exact Tenure, which may be Leased or another type.
My family owned land within a Manor that was "Copyhold" and that land could be left in a Will and when the Copyholder died, the person/s to whom it was left to, would apply to the Manor Court to have it transferred, but it was not Freehold.
On the day of transfer it was the Custom of this Manor for the new Copyholder to appear in person and hold a piece of Straw in Court whilst the transfer took place.
Because my family built a house on the land, we had to ask the Manor if the property should be revalued and if so pay a percentage of the valuation.
If you couldn't pay any revaluation, you could sometimes sell or transfer to another person, subject to the Manor approval and rules.
Mark
Added: Reference to the Admissions Book (I forgot last night)
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4) I have been able to find the first two pages of the will, which includes everything down to a statement by the witnesses that they have subscribed their names. But that is all I have. Does anyone have access to a possible third page with the witnesses names and whatever follows? If so, could you transcribe and post it? I don't think a transcription violates any copyright, but if it does, just say so.
Did you see pages 1 & 2 on FindMyPast? click on the little arrow to page through to the next pages.
This is the crucial one
3rd page
This is a codicil of my last will and which I direct
and order to be performed. Viz that should my
Grandaughter Martha Grattan, the daughter of my
late son Thomas Grattan happen to be destitute of
a Home (?) and unprovided for, that my son Joseph
Gratton my Executor provide her a maintenance
and find her a home upon my farm at Bundwood-
gate above named untill she can provide for herself
And I further order and direct that the Legacies
herein before devised to my sons George Grattan, John
Gratton & James Grattan and to my Daughters
Nanney Hollingworth, Elizabeth Wolstenholme & Jane
Gratton be paid at the decease of my dear wife. In
witness whereof I have to this my last Will and testament
set my Hand and seal. This third day of August
in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred
and twenty nine
Joseph Gratton
His X mark
signed in the presence of us who have set our
names in the presence of the testator and of one another
George Stevenson
Adam Wilson
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Copyhold was an earlier form, a manorial tenancy, which changed hands at a manor court "by copy of court roll" and the payment of a heriot to the lord of the manor. The occupiers were copyholders rather than simply tenants. I think this system started to die out in the 18th cent. after widespread enclosure of common fields (cultivated) and common grazing, leading to consolidated farms.
Belvoir Castle, Leicestershire is the centre of the Rutland estate but lands probably extended to several counties, including Derbyshire.
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Thank you mckha for indicating the Will on FindMyPast and the Codicil
Gratton the Executor with the Will (or a Certified Copy of the Will) should have attended the Landowner's Estate Office or Court or Manor Court to have this potential Right to provide a house for Martha the Granddaughter and the Transfer recorded .
Because the Will also refers to the Approval of the Duke of Rutland, then the Landowner's Estate Office or Court or Manor Court Roll (a Roll or a Volume referred to as a Court Roll) that records the Estate Proceedings of the Landowner (His Grace) or Manor Court should have recorded this Transfer.
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The Land Acts of the early 20th Century tried to do away with some old Rights.
There was a fairly recent Notice about a Deadline regarding some old Rights.
1870 Case
I am aware that our Family (on another Line of Ascent) went to the Manor Court after a Will was Proved, due to a death in 1870 regarding a Transfer of Property (from one family member to another) because they also had to be Admitted to the Manor.
The documents relating to the 1870 Will (incl Copy Will sent to the Manor Court) came up for Sale and I purchased them which was one half of the two way correspondence with the Manor.
I saw the other documents listed online created by the Manor regarding the family transfer (not seen).
Mark
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Some records for the Duke of Rutland came under Belvoir Castle and it seems the records are at more than one archive.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_dss=range&_ro=any&_q=%22Belvoir+Castle%22
Thank you very much. Do you know if any are online yet. The nationalarchives main site is loading right now, but the discovery. part is not. And I think I will wait until later in the day so I have time to go through it thoroughly.
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Not sure if answered, but leaving his mark would strongly suggest he could not sign his name.
Thank you. I always assumed that on records from the U.S. and Ireland, but I wasn't sure what the custom was on English wills.
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Did you see pages 1 & 2 on FindMyPast? click on the little arrow to page through to the next pages.
This is the crucial one
3rd page
Thank you very much for this. The first page came from a tree on ancestry - the owner of the tree had used it for an image of Joseph. A 3rd cousin found the 2nd page. I was going to ask him to look for the 3rd page sometime after the busy holiday times settled down. I think he might have found page 2 on findmypast.
It looks like my James Gratton didn't get his 5 pounds until his mother died in 1838.
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@MollyC and others:
Thank you for the thorough explanation of the possible landholding arrangements. I was unfamiliar with these types of landholding and will have to go over the information and look up some of the terms to sort it all out.
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You will need to make enquiries with the various Record Offices in that link, is a place to start.
The National Archives used to have the Manorial Register but not every Repository or Archives holding surviving documents of a particular manor are listed on their Register.
Just the Indexes for some of these Landowner Manor collections go to many volumes on Archive shelves.
It might also be the case that the Family still hold the Records at their Family Seat or an Approved Place of Deposit hold the Records on their behalf.
Mark
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You will need to make enquiries with the various Record Offices in that link, is a place to start.
Got it, thanks.
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Hello
There are two other things that you may be able to do from home:-
1) I am not saying it was Copyhold, but online newspapers may advertise a later Sale of a property and see what the advert states.
However it was Leasehold or another Tenure from the Manor, there will be no advert.
2) the other one that will cost about £30 or so, that may or may not, add a few notes to your Will.
There are some Inland Revenue Duty Registers for 1830 (the Probate Year) and these Volumes for 1830 seem to be under these headings:-
Will Register
Reversionary Register
Administration Register
1830 in the IR 27/213 Index (year and reference from f m p) Image attached
Your fella Joseph Gratton was Registered for the possible payment of Duty
The image (on f m p listed as 1830) says:-
GRATTON Joseph, Jos: Gratton, Brendwood Gate, Derby, Lichfield, Register 3, 372 [the last digit seems to be a tick]
See 2 attachment snippets (from f m p)
Because yours is a Will and TNA don't list the Register number, it might be in the IR Will Registers.
We have also found all our Wills in the IR Will Register Volumes and have ordered some from TNA, Kew, official gov.uk web site.
In their Discovery catalogue sign in, and find catalogue reference IR 26/1225 in the Discovery "Any of these references" box you should get ...
IR 26/1225
Will Register : Surnames E - G, folios 345 - 519
Date 1830
You can visit in person (with all the relevant photo and address ID they require) check if document requires advance order.
Or use the catalogue link and if you wish you can order a page check for £8.40 (to check if the entry is in this Volume) state the name place and information from the Index and especially the Folio reference number and the type of image you want a price for:-
Colour digital image sent by link, or
Colour or B & W paper print posted.
Within a month you will get an email saying the entry was found, sign in again on Discovery and a price is given if you wish to proceed.
I cannot guarantee 100% that your £8.40 spent will find it, but we have managed to order the correct entry each time and gain the odd snippet of extra information.
The scan may not add much more to the Will.
There are I.R. internal reference numbers starting with two number digits, which refer to year events e.g., 60/---------- referred to 1860, a death year of a family member.
On some of mine there are handwritten summary notes, as though the Inland Revenue are tracking where the money is going with family names, who is inheriting, their address and other bits of information and references to other volumes, surname initial, year and Folio number.
Mark
Slide the images over to see all columns
Added:
We usually find the digital Colour image/s are clear and readable and can be saved etc.
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The will was written at Greater Barlow.
The Inland Revenue reference is to Brendwood Gate, Derby, Lichfield.
Here is Great Barlow on a map surveyed in 1876 which has Brandwoodgate in the centre.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15.0&lat=53.28107&lon=-1.49936&layers=257&b=ESRIWorld&o=100
It is in north Derbyshire but was in the diocese of Lichfield, Staffordshire, perhaps 50 miles to the south, which would have dealt with probate of wills up to 1857. The various large font styles on the map show that Barlow was a township, Great Barlow was a hamlet in the parish of Staveley and Little Barlow was a hamlet in the parish of Dronfield.
(Note there is a Rutland Terrace between Brandwoodgate and Barlow village.)
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Hello Molly and oldohiohome
Correct me if I am wrong, are some of the attached snippets parts of the Will that we are dealing with (snippets of the first 4 images for identification) attached?
This Will on f m p, the images in sequence came under the:- Dioceses of Lichfield and Coventry Wills and Probate and Indexed as Barlow, Derbyshire, England.
You will also see on the outer Chest: [for Chesterfield] T[estator] Josi Gratton Barlow
Added: The next piece - Probate Granted at Chesterfield 15th April 1830.
The Testator's address was according to the Will Joseph Gratton of Brendwood Gate in the Parish of Great Barlow and in the County of Derby.
Is the Will?
I hope you will find the listing for the Inland Revenue (the attachments of the Index) in my previous reply appear to be a match?
The address came under the County of Derby and the Registry of the Will was at Lichfield.
Mark
Added: I deliberately put the attachment titles on in my earlier reply, so that hopefully they slide together and hopefully you will see the Court column was Lichfield.
Don't worry I would rather someone check thoroughly (if they have a doubt) before any money is spent.
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Hello Molly and oldohiohome
Correct me if I am wrong, are some of the attached snippets parts of the Will that we are dealing with (snippets of the first 4 images for identification) attached?
Yes, the images you attached are the first two pages of the will I am asking about. Thank you for including them, they might be sharper images than the ones I have.
My transcription of it is now at
https://myoldohiohome.com/articles/1829-will-of-joseph-gratton-of-brendwood-gate-barlow-derbyshire.html
If it would have helped to link to my transcription at the beginning, I apologize, but I didn't have any trouble reading it, so I didn't include it.
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A side question for anyone who has findmypast - Are the Derbyshire parish records on their site? I haven't found them on ancestry or familysearch, except, I think, for some of each site's transcriptions.
I think whoever maintains this tree at ancestry had access to the parish records, because they include exact dates of Joseph's children.
https://www.ancestrylibrary.com/family-tree/person/tree/44651986/person/342626636132/facts
which I think translates to
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/44651986/person/342626636132/facts
I know the records are available at the Derbyshire archives.
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Hello
I saw your question as I had the warning of 2 replies when posting this reply.
Tried a quick Joseph Gratton search, No images on f m p.
However, there was a Joseph Gratton of Barlow marrying a Martha Parker 2nd January 1788 Dronfield Marriage (Printed Book only, which you may be able to find now online on Google Books etc., or on family search), but no Register images so you cannot see the witness signatures on this one, nor check the marriage image against the book for any printing errors.
Regarding the Inland Revenue Register
The one above for Benjamin Gratton (attachment previous thread page) has a note right hand end "Not Ent'd" so no entry for Benjamin in the Inland Revenue Register Book.
The entry for Joseph Gratton does seem to have a tick?
These are not like Manor Court records.
These were very summary notes (of varying diligence) recorded by officials at the Inland Revenue in Register Books about Wills (several or more Probates on one large Volume Opening separated by horizontal lines across both pages, with the Testator's name, brief address and a folio number).
Some have interesting summary notes of family or a property interest and some have little new information other than that which is in the Will.
Some even have notes about other people who married into the Testator's family before the death and some occasionally have a note/s beyond the death of the Testator, or few notes.
It is one of those situations that if I decide not to look at a document I won't know if it contains anything of interest or not.
However, this family history depends on your budget and some may say, well there is also a possibility of no new information, I don't think that amount is worth it.
Mark
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However, there was a Joseph Gratton of Barlow marrying a Martha Parker 2nd January 1788 Dronfield Marriage (Printed Book only, which you may be able to find now online on Google Books etc., or on family search), but no Register images so you cannot see the witness signatures on this one, nor check the marriage image against the book for any printing errors.
Image is on FamilySearch http://www.rootschat.com/links/01u4y/
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A good find - and Joseph signed his name - just - with a very blotty pen, but Martha did not.
Have been looking at Derbyshire Record Office catalogue which says "Available on www.ancestry.com" for both parishes but the Ancestry catalogue is not very clear about dates included. Findmypast only lists transcripts.
The bride's residence is Bullclose, Dronfield, which is east and slightly north of Brandwoodgate; to the north of Monk Wood.
A little bit of info. about Barlow as a chapelry in Staveley parish. Near Chesterfield, which would be the local market town. Also the Duke of Rutland did not acquire this manor until 1813.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DBY/Barlow/Lysons
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Thank you all. besides the signature we pick up a John Parker as a witness.
Image is on FamilySearch http://www.rootschat.com/links/01u4y/
From that link I found the England, Derbyshire, Church of England Parish Registers, 1537-1995, at familysearch and will start browsing the images of the Derbyshire book.