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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Galway => Topic started by: avidt on Saturday 20 December 25 21:35 GMT (UK)
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Hi All
Can you help please with my wife's family Annie Joyce born c1868 married John Flaherty c1897 I cannot find her baptism or her wedding. their daughter Mary (my wife,s mother)was born nr ballyglunin Dec 1904 , Michael Joyce her brother was born c1856 and in 1911 census he was living with his mother Honoria aged 82 born Mayo in Glenafosha Claretuam in the house my wife was born in . Any help would be much appreciated. God Bless David
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1901 census for Michael and his mother Honor Joyce
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Galway/Claretuam/Glenafosha/1400736/
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Hi Neale
Many thanks but I also have the 1901 Census info, the problem I have is with the births and marriage Kind Regards David
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Many thanks but I also have the 1901 Census info, the problem I have is with the births and marriage
Yes, but you didn't provide that census information in your post, so I did.
I understand what you are looking for. But you need to look at ALL documents to get a better idea of ages / relationships and places. Have you noticed that ages and place of birth are conflicting on census records.
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Death record of Honor Joyce in 1911
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1911/05386/4503315.pdf
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Hi Neale
Thanks so much for that information, I am not familiar with Irish records, most of my experience is with English genealogy, Could I ask if the reference to widow of herd refers to the fact that her husband had been a shepherd, like her son Michael.
If she was born in Mayo, but her son was born in Galway and probably his sister Annie Joyce, where should I look for their baptisms and Annie's wedding as there appear to be a lot of Joyce's in Galway and I am not familiar with Townlands, except for Tuam, Dunmore and Abbeyknockmoy where my wif'e s family come from Kind Regards David.
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Can you help please with my wife's family Annie Joyce born c1868 married John Flaherty c1897 I cannot find her baptism or her wedding. their daughter Mary (my wife,s mother)was born nr ballyglunin Dec 1904 , Michael Joyce her brother was born c1856 and in 1911 census he was living with his mother Honoria aged 82 born Mayo in Glenafosha Claretuam in the house my wife was born in . Any help would be much appreciated. God Bless David
How do you know that Michael and Anne Joyce are siblings?
You have not posted this information, so I have spent time searching for it.
Please confirm, this is the correct census for your John and Anne Flaherty?
1901 census
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Galway/Ballynapark/Ballina/1397323/
1911 census
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Galway/Ballynapark/Ballina/473816/
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" Annie Joyce born c1868 married John Flaherty c1897 ...... their daughter Mary (my wife,s mother)was born nr ballyglunin Dec 1904 ,"
Do you have the birth certificate for Mary FLAHERY b. Dec 1904?
Did Mary, born 1904, have siblings?
Can you name these siblings please.
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The census gives you conflicting information about Honor Joyce
- Born 1831 in Galway
- Born 1820 in Mayo
Also conflicting information about Anne / Annie Joyce who was born about 1867 – 1873 Galway
You cannot assume one or the other is correct. So it is best to broaden your searching.
On Honor’s death record, her son Michael records her husband was “a herd”.
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Michael's baptism?
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632946?locale=en#page/110/mode/1up
Born June 15, baptised June 16 1854.
Marriage 20 April 1852
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632946?locale=en#page/197/mode/1up
Debra :D
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In Ireland the term herd usually means someone who looks after a farm on behalf of the owner. If you look at the outoffices return for the 1911 census of Ballina townland you will see that John’s property included a cow house, piggery, fowl house, barn & shed. A simple shepherd doesn’t normally need all those. John lived on a farm but probably wasn’t himself the tenant farmer. See final post on this query about the term:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=442833.9
If you look at Ballina on Griffiths Valuation (in parish of Killererin) you will see that nearly all the properties there were farms, plus there was one herd’s house with offices and 56 acres of land. Someone who is simply a shepherd doesn't normally have 56 acres of land.
A similar definition here:
https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2056842496/herds-house
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...... their daughter Mary (my wife,s mother)was born nr ballyglunin Dec 1904 ,"
Do you have the birth certificate for Mary FLAHERY b. Dec 1904?
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1905/01791/1703239.pdf
Born at Ballina townland, father John Flaherty a herd. MMN Joyce
Ballina townland north-west of Abbeyknockmoy.
https://www.townlands.ie/galway/clare/killererin/ballynapark/ballina/
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/4097404#map=12/53.4754/-8.8131
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Hi Neale
Thanks for your help, those are the correct Census entries. Michael and Annie are siblings as when there was a dispute over the home place, my wife's parents moved in with Mary's Uncle Michael in Glenafosha. Also my wife's oldest sister remembers Grandad John coming to the house. Kind Regards David
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Hi Kiltaglas
Many thanks for the information on the Townlands. I do have the birth certificate for Mary Flaherty.Kind Regards David
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Hi Elwyn
Many thanks for the kind definition of the term herd, I am learning so much from this thread thanks to all you kind people. Kind Regards David
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Also my wife's oldest sister remembers Grandad John coming to the house.
Who was Grandad John? JOhn Flaherty?
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Hi Neale
Yes this is John Flaherty , my sister in law is 92 and she was the favourite. Kind Regards David. Do have a wonderful Christmas with your family
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Hi Neale
Just a thought, my wife remembers her mother's eldest brother Michael coming to see them at glenafosha . Kind Regards David
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Did Mary, born 1904, have siblings?
Can you name these siblings please.
For information for the OP, if he doesn't have it.
Other siblings born at Ballina (see 1911 census, reply #5)-
Michael 1900, John 1902, Honor 1907
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/search/?church-or-civil=civil&firstname=&lastname=Flaherty&location=Tuam&yearStart=1898&yearEnd=1915&event-birth=1&_day=&month=&mothers-surname=Joyce&age-at-death=&relation-0=
https://tinyurl.com/37mkanjs
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Hi KLiltaglas
Many thanks we do have these siblings, my problem goes back a generation as I still need to find the wedding of John Flaherty and Annie Joyce which must have been around 1898 if you can help please.
Kind Regards David
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Hi All
I have just purchased a subscription from roots ireland and I still cannot find the marriage of John Flaherty and Annie Joyce. In the 1911 Census it says they have been married 14 years, which would mean marriage c1897. their first child Michal was born 1900. Any help would be much appreciated Kind Regards David
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Annie was of an age that she could have been in service away from home.
Do you know anything of John’s parentage or area?
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Hi Heywood
The 4 children of John and Annie were all born in Ballina co galway and Annie's brother Michael and mother Honoria were living In Glenafosha in the 1901/1911 Census. the house where my wife was born is 3 miles out of Tuam on the Galway Road. Kind Regards David
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Thank you. I have already seen those records.
I am just trying to think of ways to get round the absence of other records.
The baptism and marriage which Debra posted is in Portumna, which is quite some distance from your area and Joyce is very popular in Galway.
Do you have any idea how long the family were living in Glennafosha before 1901?
Land registry records may help, although I am not sure how searches work nowadays. When I did it several years ago, I just wrote and they were sent to me for a small charge.
As I said, Annie was of an age that she may not have been at home at the time of her marriage. However, we can’t find one anywhere at the moment.
Have you tried the local parish church records which won’t be online, but someone may search them for you if you are not close.
Looking at the years you have for Michael and Annie, there would likely be more births to Honora and her husband. Are there any other names in family memories?
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Hi Heywood
I have now found Michael Joyce's death in 1943 aged 87 , my sister in law found him dead in bed, she was only 9 and Michael is buried in Kilbannon Cemetery 2.3 miles north of Tuam. Kind Regards David
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Looking at the death record and grave information, is that Michael’s marriage to Ellen Concannon in 1919?
His father is named as Laurence.
Added
I have now found Ellen/Nellie’s death so the marriage would be correct.
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Hi Heywood
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I have just spoken to my sister in law and she doesn't know anything about him being married, he lived in the small house with all the family by the time he died there were 6 children and parents and Michael in a 2 roomed cottage. Kind Regards David
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You may need to check the death and cemetery information you have given.
Have you seen the death certificate?
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Looking at the death record and grave information, is that Michael’s marriage to Ellen Concannon in 1919?
His father is named as Laurence.
Added
I have now found Ellen/Nellie’s death so the marriage would be correct.
This is the marriage referred to.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1919/09677/5509766.pdf
Death of Ellen
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1936/04808/4294064.pdf
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Michael Joyce death 1943 (described as Widower)
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1943/04658/4239534.pdf
Is this the correct Michael?
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Sorry, I didn’t post the links as I assumed avidt had them.
Michael Joyce and Nellie Joyce are both buried in Kilbannon cemetery - dates match - plot 110, Old section.
Find a grave memorials.
It seems as though it is not the right Michael.
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Death for a Lawrence Joyce in the right place. 1866
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGTN-VBWD?lang=en
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Hi Heywood
I think your right I went down a rabbit hole as the death seemed right but as my Michael Joyce did not married and died in his bed at Glenafiosha I need to start looking again.
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You didn’t reply when I asked if you had John’s details when trying to find a marriage place. I hope I am not going off on a wild goose chase here.
Looking at his approximate year of birth, there is this possible birth in 1872 with parents, Michael, a herd and Bridget Ward
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1872/03244/2188844.pdf
Another child to this couple, Michael Flaherty was born 1868
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1868/03427/2257415.pdf
A possible marriage in 1897, has a residence of Ballina
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1897/10447/5804296.pdf
In 1901 and 1911 Patrick and Bridget (Hughes) are living in Polsillagh, Ballynapark
There is a death in 1900 - Bridget Flaherty, 60 yrs, Ballina. The informant, Anne Flaherty , Ballina
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05758/4626728.pdf
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Hi Heywood
Polsiilagh and Abbeyknockmoy are where my wife's Blade family come from and still live. Ballina is close to there and that is where John and Annie Flaherty and their 4 children were living in the 1911 Census. So we are getting close. Kind Regards David
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Patrick and Bridget married at the Roman Catholic Chapel, Abbey. Will that be Abbeyknockmoy.
If so, perhaps you could contact the present parish to see if there is a record there for John and Anne.
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Hi Heywood
Yes I will see if I can get any of the family to visit the parish and look at the records. Thanks for all your help. God Bless David
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Possible death for Michael Joyce 1959 Ballyglunin
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1959/04354/4127975.pdf
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Hi Neal
Thanks for the information, but our Michael was 55 in 1911 Census and in 1959 he would have been 103. Kind Regards David.
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Thanks for the information, but our Michael was 55 in 1911 Census and in 1959 he would have been 103. Kind Regards David.
And in 1901 he was aged 40. As previously posted you have conflicting details.
Who was the informant on his death? Did he really know the correct age, or was it an approximation?
Once again, I suggest you need to widen your search parameters, special when it has to do with ages.
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Hi Neale
When I find the death, I will obtain the death certificate as you suggest, but as I mentioned he died in Glenafosha and although he was discovered by my sister in law, who was only around 9, the informant would probably have been his niece, my mother in law and it would be in Claretuam. Kind Regards David
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It may be that the missing records were just not registered. However, with regard to Michael’s death, you would think it would be registered within that more recent timeframe.
As you know, an approximate year because of the child’s age and birth, I am sure you have looked around that time.
Is there a favoured local cemetery you could check?
Do you have any other family burials you could check?
Perhaps a death announcement in the local newspaper?