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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: alison300 on Saturday 20 December 25 19:54 GMT (UK)
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looking for a second opinion on this name and address please. Looks like O'Donnell and Anley Road but I can't find anyone with this name on the 1911 census or Electoral Roll (the details are taken from a record of 1908)
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If that says niece, she could be under their family name?
Jennifer
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Given she's a woman, she's highly unlikely to be on the electoral register during that period
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The same family are at 4 Anley Rd in 1901, 1911 and 1921. They appear to have at least one boarder in 1911 and 1921, and probably also in 1901 (although registered as a separate household at the same address) so it's quite possible Miss O'Donnell was a boarder at that address for a period
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As she was a Miss she could have married between 1908-1911.
What record exactly was the 1908 entry from?
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Whose niece was she?
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Thank you everyone.
The details are from an asylum record - Miss O'Donnell is the niece of John Clay. I can't find either of them on a census record or a connection via marriage etc. I think Mabel's right, she was just a lodger.
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Do you have a first name or her age.
Jennifer
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Which asylum is your information from.
You need to give as much information as you can.
Jennifer
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I am researching the story of a patient of the Horton Asylum - all I have is his name (John Clay), age (born 1830) and the snip I shared giving his NOKs address. I have an Ancestry account but cannot find anything whatsoever. I just wanted confirmation that I had read the details correctly. I think this patient will be a 'no go' for me a I have nothing else to go on.
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Can you post a clip with the person you are interested on?
Is there no death record for him after 1908 :-\
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As I understand it, Horton Asylum opened 1902**, Epsom
There's an Epsom death registration, John Clay, Sep Qtr 1908, age 78.
Ticks some boxes.
Added - it was the 2nd opened of the "Epsom cluster".
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There's an Epsom death registration, John Clay, Sep Qtr 1908, age 78.
Horton Cemetery
John Clay, buried 17 August 1908
age 75
Hospital - Horton
https://eehe.org.uk/29283/hortoncemeteryburialsc-2/
See also ancestry, UK, Lunacy Patients Admission Registers, 1846-1921
Jno Clay, Horton, died 14 August 1908
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Possible family connection?
"February 7th at the Parish Church, Kingston on Thames, by the Rev Howard NIXON, E P KEEVIL, C E, only son of J KEEVIL Esq, of Wanborough Plain, to Alicia Sara Kathleen CLAY, wid , of H B CLAY Esq, & dau of G O'DONNELL Esq, Kingston on Thames"
(Various newspapers, February 1887)
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Thanks again. The death you found in 1908 is correct but was witnessed by someone at Horton unfortunately.
Thanks for the marriage entry - I initially tried looking for a Clay-O'Donnell marriage but couldn't find it. I'll take a closer look.
Thanks everyone for your help. Merry Christmas :)
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It’s under o’Donnell on free BDM but Clay must have been transcribed wrongly because he is missing.
Jennifer
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dec qtr 1876 St Albans marriage.
Jennifer
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Thank you Jennifer
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Is there a occupation or former occupation on the death certificate?
Records of Horton are at the London Archives, those you can see include
H22/HT/B/08
Register of patients; includes name, age, address, occupation, diagnosis and further clinical information
John was admitted 25 June 1908, so I guess you would need
H22/HT/B/08/004
Civil pauper register of patients
Jan 1907 - Jun 1908
Unfortunatley the case book of male patients, Aug 1907 - Jan 1909, is deemed to be unit for consultation
Catalogue pdf here (includes records for Banstead)
https://search.lma.gov.uk/LMA_DOC/H22.PDF
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Thanks Jonwarm - I have a copy of his case notes; his occupation was engineer but I can't find a match for him on the census. I'm beginning to think he used an alias or perhaps his name was spelt wrong etc.
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Hi
Looking at the newspapers, there is a John Clay, consulting enginer, who was charged with forgery in 1869
Bradford Observer, 18 June 1869
SERIOUS CHARGE AGAINST A CONSULTING ENGINEER.Yesterday, at the Hull Borough Police Court, before the stipendiary magistrate, a young man, of gentlemanly appearance, named John Clay, was charged with uttering a forged bill of exchange for £70 10s. The prisoner, who is consulting engineer in a large engineering establishment in Hull...
The case ended up at the York Assizes, where he was found gulity and sentenced to five years penal servitute.
Age was 36, which is in the right ballpark.
So there seem to be quite a few records for this chap in the criminal databases online, but I don't have access to them at the moment.
However, it seems he was sent to Broadmoor? :o
Though he may not still be there in the 1871 census?
Entries in ancestry's England, Criminal Lunatic Asylum Registers, 1820-1876
Name John Clay
Conviction Age 36
Birth Date abt 1833
Charge Forgery
Sentence 5
Conviction Date 29 Jul 1869
Conviction Place York
Something to investigate perhaps.
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Is this him at Portland Prison in Dorset in 1871?
From free transcript
John Clay, Convict, 37, Engineer, born Durham South Shields
TS says he was widowed.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5RS-K5G
Throw in another transcript!
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/60ae51ecf493fd75d061bf90
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Another case, this time from Birmingham Police Court in 1887
Age is out, but it says he had a previous conviction for forgery, so I'll throw it in just in case
Birmingham Daily Post, 20 April 1887
ALLEGED FORGERY.—John Clay (59), engineer, of no fixed residence, was charged with forging and uttering an acceptance to a bill of exchange for £88.10s., with intent to defraud
EDIT
Actually the age isn't that much out (my bad maths!), born circa 1828, so again in the right ballpark.
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Well it seems to be the same chap.
He got another five years!
Verdict attached
Hopefully online criminal records will prove useful.
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Although if he is the John Clay age 61 in prison in Chatham in 1891, it says he was born in Birmingham?
Or is that because the crime took place there?
TS gives occupation as Steam Engineer.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVMR-5ZM
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It’s under o’Donnell on free BDM but Clay must have been transcribed wrongly because he is missing.
dec qtr 1876 St Albans marriage.
For info. Transcription only
Marriage 22 Oct 1876 St. Albans, Abbey, Herts, Eng.
Herbert Babington Clay age 22 father Alexander
Spouse Alicia Sarah Kathleen O'Donnell age 21 father George
Possible family connection?
"February 7th at the Parish Church, Kingston on Thames, by the Rev Howard NIXON, E P KEEVIL, C E, only son of J KEEVIL Esq, of Wanborough Plain, to Alicia Sara Kathleen CLAY, wid , of H B CLAY Esq, & dau of G O'DONNELL Esq, Kingston on Thames"
(Various newspapers, February 1887)
marriage image on Anc*y
Alicia Sara Kathleen Clay 30 widow father George O’Donnell,gentleman
Spouse Edward Peter Keevil, occ civil engineer
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Looking at the newspapers, there is a John Clay, consulting engineer, who was charged with forgery in 1869
Per the Pentonville register he was aged 36, a widower with one child.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=TNA%2FCCC%2F2D%2FHO24%2F00097740&tab=this
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Is this him at Portland Prison in Dorset in 1871?
From free transcript
John Clay, Convict, 37, Engineer, born Durham South Shields
TS says he was widowed.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5RS-K5G
Throw in another transcript!
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/60ae51ecf493fd75d061bf90
There is a South Shields baptism that fits this:
John Clay of Nile Street, South Shields, son of John (ship owner) and Margaret Clay
25 June 1835 South Shields, St Hilda and also 25 June South Shields, Holy Trinity
In 1851 what looks to be this this family is in Cleadon Meadows, where John Clay snr. is "Ship Owner and Mayor of South Shields"
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There is a South Shields baptism that fits this:
John Clay of Nile Street, South Shields, son of John (ship owner) and Margaret Clay
25 June 1835 South Shields, St Hilda and also 25 June South Shields, Holy Trinity
Looks like that John Clay got married in Canada in 1875. Age 40, engineer from England, parents John & Margaret. Married Esther Truscott.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7921/images/ONMS932_17-0387?pId=2761858
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Did he go back to North America after his release from jail in the UK?
There is this prison record from Sing Sing: John Clay, 62, born England, mechanical engineer, sentenced to 2 years in New York, for Grand Larceny in the 2nd degree, 22 September 1893. Wife Etta, 109 W105th Street.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8922/records/71529
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An 1869 Prison Register at FindMyPast has him as "widower, one child"
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An 1869 Prison Register at FindMyPast has him as "widower, one child"
I posted a link to that one earlier today:
Per the Pentonville register he was aged 36, a widower with one child.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=TNA%2FCCC%2F2D%2FHO24%2F00097740&tab=this
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An 1869 Prison Register at FindMyPast has him as "widower, one child"
I posted a link to that one earlier today:
Per the Pentonville register he was aged 36, a widower with one child.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=TNA%2FCCC%2F2D%2FHO24%2F00097740&tab=this
Apologies, I thought that I had only seen references to ‘widower’.
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New York World, July 9th 1893:
JOHN CLAY WEPT IN COURT.
He is Held for Cheating the Management of the Hotel Monopole.
John Clay, fifty-eight years old, was a prisoner at the Jefferson Market Court yesterday, and Justice Hogan held him in $500 for trial The complainant is Manager Rufus W. Frost, of the Broadway Central Hotel,who says that Clay is a cheat and owes him for three weeks' board. The prisoner represents
himself as an agent for Watts & Co., the English mechanical engineers.
Clay does not deny owing this bill and says that he will pay it when an expected remittance of £50 arrives from London. The hotel people were disposed to be lenient untit they earned that Clay had left an account unpaid at the United States Hotel amounting to $250. Clay wept aloud in court.
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Another possible sighting: New York arrival 1856 - John Clay 24 engineer, with Elizabeth Clay aged 18.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7488/records/1275424
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Alison - do you have his physical description from the Horton case notes? We can cross check with the Sing Sing description.
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Sing Sing description:
John Clay
Sept 22 Received from New York
Sentenced: Sept 22/93. 2-0 Con G.L. Fitzgerald
Born: England
Age: 62
Occupation: Mechanical Engineer
Complexion: Light
Eyes: Gray
Hair: Light Brown & Gray
Stature: 5’ 9 3/4 "
Weight: 155
Read: Yes
Write: Yes
Habits: Mod.
Tobacco: Yes Protestant Married
Resided when arrested at: 109 W. 105th St. N.Y.C.
Wife: Etta Clay, 109 W. 105th St. N.Y.C.
Scars, marks, etc.:
Good shaped round head. Size 6 7/8 hat No. 8 shoes. Very thin hair, top of head nearly bald. Two scars on back of neck from carbuncle. good shaped and small ears. Round and high forehead. Active and good (?) left eyebrow. Small straight but good length nose. Short chin. Thick under lip. Upper and lower teeth both false. Regular features. Scar on right leg out side above the knee.
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1880 US census - possible hit in Lower Chichester, Delaware County, Pennsylvania:
John Clay 44 born England, works in shipyard
Etta Clay, 30 wife born England
Lena M Clay daughter 7 months born Pennsylvania
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/6742/records/37305854
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Just to close out one of the questions on this one, I've now seen the Horton Asylum case notes (Thanks Alison !) and the descriptions of the scars on the back of the neck and the outside of the right leg match the prison description from Sing Sing. So it is the same man. Our thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.
We still haven't identified "Miss O'Donnell" though.