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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: ValJJJ on Tuesday 16 December 25 20:02 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for a relative (born 1897) who served in WW1 (have that information) and WW2, and according to family anecdotes his role was top secret. But this just seems based on the fact that he couldn't tell his wife where he was or what he was doing. Which was the case for all service personnel wasn't it? Perhaps he did have mysterious role - if so, might his service record be suppressed?
Currently I can't find a record, and the MoD has been very slow to respond. I might start again with them. I don't know if the absence of any record is due to the transfer of army records from the MoD to the national archive, and it might appear in a few years. Or was he really part of a secret service?
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What do you mean you can't find his Records Where?
When did you apply to the MOD for his Records?
What information do you have already about WW1?
And from where?
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The WW1 info is just from the medal cards (found on Ancestry) giving his regiments (two) and service numbers for each.
I asked MoD several years ago, but never received anything. I think I'll start again. The National Archives search doesn't reveal the name.
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If he was Demobbed in Spring 1919 like so many
His WW1 Army Records would have been sent by them as an Ex Soldier to their Repository Storeroom at Arnside Street in 1920 where they were All kept securely until September 1940 when the Repository was Blitzed and approximately 60 Percent were Destroyed Burnt - the 40 Percent that Partly Survived partly Burnt has been Scanned by Ancestry and held by them under Military- Service Records
If you have looked under them and had success then there are no Records anywhere else then.
Applications for WW2 Records from the MOD are currently attempting to reduce their Two Year Backlog but at the same time the Transfer to the National Archives is also taking place over the next Few Years.
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It was the WW2 records that I was interested in. Lost in a black hole between the MoD and TNA I suspect.
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It was the WW2 records that I was interested in. Lost in a black hole between the MoD and TNA I suspect.
If you see many of the Posts on here and other Forums from those who have Received their Relatives WW2 Records are Complaining
that they can't understand them
because they are written in Abbreviations and with Codes - so you'll need the 373 pages of Abbreviations and Codes to help you - after you have paid for the Pages that they Copy of the Records for you that they found.
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Before the system changed, I obtained totally unredacted service records courtesy of being a family member. There are lots of codes but the MoD supplied a list of abbreviations and there are lots of other websites that help too.
I'll worry about codes once I manage to track down this particular service record, if ever.
What is annoying is that now it's FoI and available to all, the redactions are the things of most interest - personal things like employment at the time of enlisting; name and address of next of kin.
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We applied for and received my late Father in law’s WW2 Army Service Record from the MOD. There was no charge.
I noticed on Ancestry today that there is a Medal Card entry for him dated 1956, but I’m unable to view it, because a Fold 3 subscription is required!
I’m very annoyed about this, and will not take out a further subscription.
Romilly.
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Everything in war time is secret. In civilian life my father was an engineer in the manufacture of cranes and dredgers. Hr was in the Homeguard during WWII and wasn't allowed to say anything about his training or operations, although after the war he told us that if the Germans landed he had to blow up the street where we lived. This was to keep the enemy occupied looking after civilians.
In those days every cross road had a finger signpost pointing the way to towns and villages. During the war all the pointers were removed in case Gerry landed he would not be helped by following sign post directions.
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Yes all Army Other Ranks/NCO records upto end of National Service have been transferred to TNA from MoD.
TNA has yet to complete opening catalogue entries on Discovery on all WO series currently with Series Descriptions.
TNA has yet to designate reserved WO series for all the records received eg No WO yet for Guards etc.
So search on Discovery that you could do as an individual may not find a name of a record that has been transferred.
Search on Discovery by TNA internal search may not find a name of a record that has been transferred as it is still on pallet and has no WO allotted yet.
Current procedure is to use .GOV online method to apply to MoD. Army Disclosures will check index and state where the record is eg TNA or MoD. Most importantly if transferred to TNA then Army Disclosures will give the reference number that will allow TNA to locate an currently uncatalogued file on a particular pallet.
Note as well that main indexing by both MoD and TNA is on Full Birth Names and attested Date of Birth. Giving family known name or common short eg James John known as John to everyone, Ted for Edward etc will end up with a "no record" return. As will if the person lied about actual date of birth to enlist.
Ross
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Stutter by site on upload
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Thanks Rena - exactly. I think the family built up this mystery around the default secrecy imposed on all those serving.
Rafcommand - that is very useful info/advice. Thanks.
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Success, possibly. Using FoI for the National Archive, they promptly found a service record for the correct name, correct birth day and month, but the year they have noted is wrong by three years 1884 instead of 1887. 4 and 7 can be hard to distinguish in some handwriting, and they say there could be typos. I've ordered the record so will soon know if it is the right person.
Thanks rafcommands for explaining how to go about this.
Once I see the report (in a few weeks) I'll update here regarding whether his service was any more secret than any other.
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Great stuff - onward and upward.
Glad you have also managed to request copy before the new fee scale kicks in Feb26.
Ross
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A new fee scale? Can you point me to a link about this please? Is this a research fee or a copying fee?
I will be viewing it at the National Archives, so no fee is involved.
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General Copy fee increases but also scroll down to a specific bit on TNA search and copy of MoD Service Records.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/legal/our-fees/#guide
If you are doing a few service records contained in WO420/421/422 and in the next few years WO419 then ancestry membership will be cheaper (these are pruned to exclude medical/criminal pages) but have ancestry added value of hyperlink to named father/mother/spouse.
Cheapest way is to visit TNA in person - then no TNA search fee and if you take own images then copy free. Ancestry without membership is also free access via TNA corporate visitor login from Reading Rooms and General TNA areas.
Ross
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Thanks. Yes visiting TNA next week, and been there before using their computers and their reading room. It's a brilliant facility.
Edit: I've ordered the record from WO 423
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Success. The record was for the correct person, and the wrong year of birth (1894 instead of 1897 as on his birth cert) stated on all the documents, so it wasn't a typo. I can't see any reason for him to have lied about his year of birth. He would have been old enough to enlist in WW1 so would not have needed to lie then. In WW2 perhaps it was better to be older, to avoid seeing action?
The attestation showed him signed up for 4 years service in the Territorial Army Reserve (National Defence Company) in June 1939. He declared being in the 1st Cambridgeshire Regt in 1914, and in the Royal Engineers in 1919.
The file of papers included his service record and various loose documents, from which I've summarised:
1940 posted to 9th Suffolk Regt
1941 June - letter from Cambridge police saying he appears to be a suitable person for the blue caps
Jun 1941 transferred to the Corps of Military Police, Bournemouth. VP [=vulnerable points wing]
Sep. Posted Eastern Command. Depot. Auth. APM/VP 5/41 + Coast/Adm/B/VP/146
May 1942 posted to 302 Company (VP)
Oct 1942 Posted to Y list
Dec 1942 Posted to 302 Company (VP)
Feb 1943 Signed official secrets act
June 1943 303 Company (VP)
April 1944 304 Company (VP)
June 1944 303 Company (VP)
14 Jan 1945 395 Company (VP)
23 Jan 1945 303 Company (VP)
Feb 1945 416 Company (VP)
May 1945 375 Company (VP)
July 45 Y List
Sep 45 Discharged as permanently unfit for any form of military service. ex 375 Company VP CMP
Noted that 'disability under 20% Unconnected E.5.'
If anyone has insights on the above abbreviations, that would be useful. eg unconnected E.5.
Were any of these companies posted overseas? Are there any accounts of where these companies operated?
Bournemouth cropped up a few times - seems to be the location of admin for CMP personnel.
It appears he was not part of the special ops wing of CMP (as speculated by his family), so that's one question answered.
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I'm glad that your quest was successful. You asked about abbreviations. The first significant one comes in the authority for his posting to Eastern Command. APM stands for Assistant Provost Martial - a staff officer in Headquarters of VP Wing.
Y list is an administrative holding position while a soldier is non-effective due to illness in hospital over 21 days. The significance of him being on the Y list was that his parent unit could ask for a temporary replacement to keep them up to their war establishment. It was not a posting as such and in most cases the soldier would return to his previous unit after coming off the Y list (assuming that his fitness level was suitable).
E5 was the lowest grading for a man who had been assessed as permanently unfit for service. The grade 5 represents the extent of his physical limitations, such as strength, endurance, mobility. It might also reflect visual or hearing problems.
In 1940, a system of categories was selected by the Army as follows:
· A1, A2, B1, B2, B3, B4, B5: These seven categories were based on vision in relation to shooting and driving, physical endurance, the ability to march and the manifestation of any other disease which would affect military duty. The categories also had caveats which determined both task and location worldwide.
· C: Home service only.
· D: Temporarily unfit.
· E: Permanently unfit.
The Army allocated a soldier to one of these categories
on the basis of the Civilian Medical Board grades.
Source: Fifty Years of PULHHEEMS—The British Army's System of Medical Classification by Col T P Finnegan, MSc, FFOM Colonel and Deputy Assistant Chief of Staff (Medical) Headquarters, Land Command, Wilton, Wiltshire, UK published in Annals Academy of Medicine September 2001, Vol. 30 No.5.
The 'unconnected' bit means that his disability was not attributable to his military service.
And yes some VP CMP companies were posted to North West Europe where they were employed guarding prisoner of war camps (see Wikipedia article History of the RMP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Royal_Military_Police)).
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Two links which might be helpful:
WW2Talk forum (https://www.ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/corps-of-military-police-394-395-coy-query.101164/) thread entitled Corps of Military Police - 394/395 Coy Query
and
Corps of Military Police (https://corpsofmilitarypolice.org/) website. Specifically Vulnerable Points Companies in WW2 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vR_or0PnrUT3_LtuzG0x-dE84uFzVV3_Zc4TAPVR10woV3H-1vzLbX_RDBWRFYEjx_PSrMcFA1xivQq/pub)
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Thanks Andy J2022, that's all helpful.
A family member thought he'd been gassed but not sure whether that was WW1 or 2. And might have just been an assumption because of struggling to breathe after running for a bus (after WW2). He is stated fit for service in the attestation for WW2 though.
I'll look up those links.
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He wouldn't have been gassed in WW2. There was no significant use of gas as a weapon in Europe during WW2* and the few incidents were largely accidents confined to munition factories and storage depots. Since his grading of E5 was judged not attributable to his military service (in WW2), that would not have been the cause. He may have had a lung or heart condition arising from natural causes.
* The Nazis of course used chemical weapons in their extermination camps; and the Japanese used some chemical agents in the Far East, mainly in China and Burma until 1943 until a threat by the Americans to respond with chemical weapons caused them to stop.
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Yes I think the gas idea probably came from him having a health issue - probably a smoker as so many were.
From one of your links: ...There were two kinds of VP posts, VP1’s were guarded by VP Sections with various kinds of arms and were dug in in a static defensive position. VP2’s were normal VP points and were operated as a flexible guard, these men normally carried truncheons and whistles. These Companies were formed from older men and men of a lower medical category...
His kit issue included a truncheon and whistle and a whistle chain.