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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Nottinghamshire => England => Nottinghamshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: avidt on Thursday 11 December 25 13:25 GMT (UK)
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Hi All
Ann Cattle was born according to Census records in Arnold Notts in 1801, but I cannot find her in any records in the Notts area She married Isaac smith in London in 1822 and in the 1851 Census she is living with the family in Clerkenwell. Rumour has it that her parents were William and Elizabeth possibly from York but until I find her baptism I am stuck. Can anyone help please Many thanks David
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Is the middle name of the first child significant? Ann Barker Smith
Is Ann Cattle only on the 1841/1851 census?
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Many thanks Millipede
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I note on family search that the 1851 census states ann/e was born Arnold, Northamptonshire,
although this may not be correct, maybe below might be worth a look?
Anne CATTLE Baptism 10 Oct 1802 Northamptonshire
Bugbrooke : St Michael and All Angels : Parish Register
Parents Thomas Cattle & Elizth, abode Braunston
Colin
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Thanks ColC but Ann was definitely born in Arnold Notts and her parents were William and Elizabeth
as the will of her brother Henry attests same as Enoch and one of her children was Thomas Enoch Smith, Kind Regards David
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Is the middle name of the first child significant? Ann Barker Smith
Of course barker may come from Isaac Smith's family. He had the middle name George which might make it easier to trace him
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Can I ask what evidence do you have apart from the census entry that Ann was born in Nottinghamshire?
We all know that for many reasons census entries are sometimes wrong. What can happen if the entry names a place many miles away the enumerator won't know if what they have written is correct.
One thought crossed my mind is that Braunston and Bugbooke are both villages on the Grand Union Canal could the family have been travelling south? Arnold Notts doesn't have a canal.
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Have you looked further into her brother Henry? When did he die / will proved?
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Thanks ColC but Ann was definitely born in Arnold Notts and her parents were William and Elizabeth
as the will of her brother Henry attests same as Enoch and one of her children was Thomas Enoch Smith, Kind Regards David
Did brother Henry's will actually state that his parents were William and Elizabeth? In your first post you said it was RUMOUR that the parents were W and E. Who is Enoch? and how is he related to Henry? There is a record for a Henry Cattle (of Clerkenwell) on the death duty register for 1883, DD was paid by Enoch Cattle.
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I have found baptisms in London districts for a Henry Cattle and an Enoch Cattle, both with parents William and Elizabeth, one in Clerkenwell and one in St Sepulchre. There are post 1813 baptisms to a William / Elizabeth couple in St Sepulchre for a Martha Ann and John James. giving William's occupation as tailor. My best canddate on censuses for Henry is also a tailor. Enoch is an undertaker. Martha and JJ died in infancy. The best possibilty for a marriage for a William and Elizabeth is in Yorkshire at Sherrif Hutton on 08 Dec 1798 by licence (bride's surname Atley) it says age 21 on transcript, but the actual document might say over 21. Being Yorkshire, the licence image would have to be ordered from the Borthwick.
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Do William and Elizabeth get married in Sherrif Hutton, then the tailoring work dries up in Yorkshire, so they decide to go to London. Ann is born in transit at Arnold, but no time to get her baptised there, they've got a canal boat to catch in Northants, so they get her baptised at Bugbrooke?
Found another baptism in St Sepuchre, William George in 1819, father is a tailor again
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William George Cattle didn't die in infancy like two of his siblings. He married at least twice. Found his marriage as a widower age 32, occ tobacconist, father William - occ tailor, to Jane Parker, 37 spinster, at St George Martyr, Borough High st on 11 sep 1851. wit J. Penn and Mary Cook or Coak.
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I have found baptisms in London districts for a Henry Cattle and an Enoch Cattle, both with parents William and Elizabeth, one in Clerkenwell and one in St Sepulchre. There are post 1813 baptisms to a William / Elizabeth couple in St Sepulchre for a Martha Ann and John James. giving William's occupation as tailor. My best canddate on censuses for Henry is also a tailor. Enoch is an undertaker. Martha and JJ died in infancy. The best possibilty for a marriage for a William and Elizabeth is in Yorkshire at Sherrif Hutton on 08 Dec 1798 by licence (bride's surname Atley) it says age 21 on transcript, but the actual document might say over 21. Being Yorkshire, the licence image would have to be ordered from the Borthwick.
Finally found Henry's probate record to confirm this. Don't know what's wrong with FindMyPast's search engine today.
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Now found the image of the marriage record of William and Elizabeth. Her surname may be Attay, not sure if double t or t and l, the crossing goes across both letters. One witness is John Cattle. On the same page is a marriage between John Smithson and Dorothy Maxon, one witness is Led Cattle. And the last marriage on the page is witnessed by the same John cattle and a Thomas Cattle. John Cattle may be a church official, but are he and the other cattles related to William? All Cattles can sign their names.
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There's a burial of a William Cattle in Sheriff Hutton from Free reg, about the right age to be the person who married there
date 24 Sep 1836
Burial person forename William
Burial person surname CATTLE
Person age 59
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An Elizabeth Cattle was buried oon 27 June 1841 at St james Clerkenwell. Age 61, abode 11 Helena Place. She should have just made the 1841 census. If she was the one married in Yorkshire she wouldn't be 21, but maybe that's why they married by licence and pretended to be of age
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There's a burial of a William Cattle in Sheriff Hutton from Free reg, about the right age to be the person who married there
date 24 Sep 1836
Burial person forename William
Burial person surname CATTLE
Person age 59
There's also an Elizabeth Cattle age 70 on her own in Sherriff Hutton in 1841. I think there are two William / Elizabth couples
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If you look at Northants FreeReg there is a family of Cattles in Braunston back as far as 1740s.
Problem is can't find a marriage to fit in.
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So according to F/S.Org children of William/Elizabeth were;
Enoch 1809
John James 1814
Martha Anne 1817
William George 1819
Christopher James 1822
Charles Thomas 1824
WILLIAM Cattle;
Burial Date 23 Dec. 1825 St. Sepulchres, London
Age 44 birth c 1781
Possible Will?
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This may be Elizabeth in St Helena's Place 1841. Looks like Kattle but transcribed as Kable
Age 60
Civil parish St James Clerkenwell
Hundred Ossulstone (Finsbury Division)
County/Island Middlesex
Country England
Registration District Clerkenwell
Sub-registration district Amwell
Piece 659
Book 6
Folio 21
Page number 35
Household Members 1
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This may be Elizabeth in St Helena's Place 1841. Looks like Kattle but transcribed as Kable
Age 60
Civil parish St James Clerkenwell
Death
CATTLE, ELIZABETH age 61
GRO Reference: 1841 June Quarter in ST JAMES CLERKENWELL Volume 03 Page 26
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Well found.
I looked for age for her and also a possible remarriage.
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This may be Elizabeth in St Helena's Place 1841. Looks like Kattle but transcribed as Kable
Age 60
Civil parish St James Clerkenwell
Death
CATTLE, ELIZABETH age 61
GRO Reference: 1841 June Quarter in ST JAMES CLERKENWELL Volume 03 Page 26
See my reply#15
An Elizabeth Cattle was buried oon 27 June 1841 at St james Clerkenwell. Age 61, abode 11 Helena Place. She should have just made the 1841 census.
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Hi Lizzie
Enoch was Henry's older brother all living in Clerkenwell and Ann's son was Thomas Enoch Smith and Ann is named in Henry's sister in his will. Also in the obituary for Enoch he is names as the son of William of York. Kind Regards David
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Hi Lizzie Your info confirms what my friend Jackie who is descended from the Cattle family has found. The William and Elizabeth married sherriff Hutton lived and died there, so there must be another William and Elizabeth, this is the William who was a Tailor like his son Henry who was also a Tailor.
Kind Regards David
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The Sherrif Hutton William made the newspapers in 1830 he went bankrupt in a big way. Owing £50.000. He was a cattle dealer.
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@avidt - thank you David
Everyone else - thank you for all your comments. William and Elizabeth Cattle are my big brickwall. Family talk has always said the family originated from York, but I beginning to doubt it.
I do believe 'my' Elizabeth was the one who died in 1841 in St Helena Place, Clerkenwell and 'my' William died in December 1825, Clerkenwell.
Enoch and all his younger siblings were born in London (Middlesex), but Ann was born in Arnold as David has said.
Jackie
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So according to F/S.Org children of William/Elizabeth were;
Enoch 1809
John James 1814
Martha Anne 1817
William George 1819
Christopher James 1822
Charles Thomas 1824
WILLIAM Cattle;
Burial Date 23 Dec. 1825 St. Sepulchres, London
Age 44 birth c 1781
Possible Will?
These are all correct and I believe this to be my William. There is no will, not that I've found anyway. Ann Cattle is the eldest child, born 1802 in Arnold.
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Jena I asked earlier and didn't get a reply, apart from the census entry what evidence do you have that Ann was born in Arnold Nottinghamshire?
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So according to F/S.Org children of William/Elizabeth were;
Enoch 1809
John James 1814
Martha Anne 1817
William George 1819
Christopher James 1822
Charles Thomas 1824
WILLIAM Cattle;
Burial Date 23 Dec. 1825 St. Sepulchres, London
Age 44 birth c 1781
Possible Will?
These are all correct and I believe this to be my William. There is no will, not that I've found anyway. Ann Cattle is the eldest child, born 1802 in Arnold.
There's also Henry (the will maker) to fit in after Enoch.
If we discount the Yorkshire William / Elizabeth as a co-incidence and unrelated, then apart for Ann's birthplace, all other events are in London - St Sepulchre and Clerkenwell.
All the Cattle children baptised in London make a nice set at typical interval. Between Ann an Enoch is a gap of 7 years (if her age on census is correct).
If the Elizabeth Cattle who died in 1841 is the correct one, she would have been born in 1781. She might have been married previously and Ann is daughter of first husband, or Ann might be her illegitimate daughter before she married William Cattle.
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OK Looking at baptisms in Arnold 1800 / 1803 I can see the following Anns with mother Elizabeth, all were couples.
Hudson, Barnes, Coldbeck, Hutchinson, Hufton, Cutts, Bailly.
If you want to follow those through to see if you can eliminate them you might just if Ann was born in Arnold find her.
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Jena I asked earlier and didn't get a reply, apart from the census entry what evidence do you have that Ann was born in Arnold Nottinghamshire?
Other than the 1841 and 1851 census entries, nothing.
I thought the cousin who found reference to Ann on Henry's will, had found something in the records from Arnold, but i can't find it, so I might be making that up!
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OK Looking at baptisms in Arnold 1800 / 1803 I can see the following Anns with mother Elizabeth, all were couples.
Hudson, Barnes, Coldbeck, Hutchinson, Hufton, Cutts, Bailly.
If you want to follow those through to see if you can eliminate them you might just if Ann was born in Arnold find her.
Thank you for these - I'll take a look
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So according to F/S.Org children of William/Elizabeth were;
Enoch 1809
John James 1814
Martha Anne 1817
William George 1819
Christopher James 1822
Charles Thomas 1824
WILLIAM Cattle;
Burial Date 23 Dec. 1825 St. Sepulchres, London
Age 44 birth c 1781
Possible Will?
These are all correct and I believe this to be my William. There is no will, not that I've found anyway. Ann Cattle is the eldest child, born 1802 in Arnold.
There's also Henry (the will maker) to fit in after Enoch.
If we discount the Yorkshire William / Elizabeth as a co-incidence and unrelated, then apart for Ann's birthplace, all other events are in London - St Sepulchre and Clerkenwell.
All the Cattle children baptised in London make a nice set at typical interval. Between Ann an Enoch is a gap of 7 years (if her age on census is correct).
If the Elizabeth Cattle who died in 1841 is the correct one, she would have been born in 1781. She might have been married previously and Ann is daughter of first husband, or Ann might be her illegitimate daughter before she married William Cattle.
Ooh yes, can't forget Henry!
Yes, it is a big gap between Ann and Enoch. I know David (the OP) had looked for any other possible children but didn't have any luck.
As you say, Ann being from a previous marriage or illegitimate is always a possibility.
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Is the middle name of the first child significant? Ann Barker Smith
Of course barker may come from Isaac Smith's family. He had the middle name George which might make it easier to trace him
He was born 26th December 1799 and baptised 19th January 1800 at St Sepulchre, Newgate, London - parents Thomas and Mary Smith
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMWD-ZYC?lang=en
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When did Ann Cattle / Smith die.
Isaac Smith died in 1858 and the probate index names his children Ann Barker Smith & Isaac George Smith as Executors, do you have this will. In 1861 the children are still at 10 Percival Street but no sign of Ann.
How does Henry's will refer to Ann, when was it dated and when did he die.
Who was Sir Christopher Cattle mentioned on Enoch's obituary
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When did Ann Cattle / Smith die.
Assuming she did predecease Isaac and death was registered in Clerkenwell district, I can only find one that fits the age
Ann Smith age 53 Q3 1854 Clerkenwell, Volume 01B Page 391
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Is the middle name of the first child significant? Ann Barker Smith
Of course barker may come from Isaac Smith's family. He had the middle name George which might make it easier to trace him
He was born 26th December 1799 and baptised 19th January 1800 at St Sepulchre, Newgate, London - parents Thomas and Mary Smith
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMWD-ZYC?lang=en
Image is on Ancestry, which gives extra information that their abode was Cow lane
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There is a Christopher Cattle in York, a Freeman . He was the son of Joseph Cattle (a Translator) he was baptised in York c1767. He married Jane Wilkinson in 1807.
Possible siblings for Christopher baptised in York
William 2nd August 1761
George 1st April 1764
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There is a Christopher Cattle in York, a Freeman . He was the son of Joseph Cattle (a Translator) he was baptised in York c1767. He married Jane Wilkinson in 1807.
Possible siblings for Christopher baptised in York
William 2nd August 1761
George 1st April 1764
1891 obit. can't post clip to this thread
Enoch Cattle of 9 cheverton rd, hornsey rise, died oct 21 in 82nd year s/o William Cattle of York and related to Sir Christopher Cattle of Blake street York