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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: osip on Tuesday 09 December 25 16:44 GMT (UK)
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Searching my notes I have so far researching my Clark family, I have yet to find the siblings of William Richard Clark 1875-1949. Parents James Clark 1844 - Elizabeth Simpson 1847.
Any help would be gratefully recieved.
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Have you tried searching the GRO index with surname Clark and mothers maiden surname Simpson
Do you have the family on census after James and Elizabeth married
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Is this his birth
CLARK, WILLIAM RICHARD Mothers maiden surname WELSH
GRO Reference: 1875 S Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 337
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Presumably his death
Death Dec qtr 1949
Clark William R age 74
Liverpool N. 1
Did he marry Annie Cook in 1897 - father named as James Christopher Clark (deceased) occ Mariner...
There is this marriage for his probable father
Marriages Dec 1876
CLARK James Christopher
PRICE Eliza
Liverpool 8b 301
James Christopher Clark was a Widower occ Mariner
Eliza was a Spinster
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Searching my notes I have so far researching my Clark family, I have yet to find the siblings of William Richard Clark 1875-1949. Parents James Clark 1844 - Elizabeth Simpson 1847.
Any help would be gratefully recieved.
Where did the information about his parents come from
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Thank you rosie I'll answer as best as I can.
Williams mothers maiden name was McGlashan.
Yes William died 1949.
Yes he married Annie 1897.
His father James married Elizabeth Simpson in Edinburgh 1867.
I have come across Eliza Price before and it was suggested that could have been his 2nd marriage?
hopefully that all makes sense. Thanks again
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I am confused. - Added - see next post before worrying about this one.
James Christopher Clark …is he the one who died at sea in 1894 about whom you have other threads?
He says…on that 1876 marriage to Eliza Price that his father was James, a land surveyor.
On your Roger Martin Clark thread, I thought you said James who died 1894 at sea, was the brother of Robert, the son of Robert and Ann (Philip)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=895473.0
Also, in your opening post you have William Richard Clarke’s mother as SIMPSON,
I have yet to find the siblings of William Richard Clark 1875-1949. Parents James Clark 1844 - Elizabeth Simpson 1847.
yet later you say she was McGLASHAN.
Williams mothers maiden name was McGLASHAN
Can you please confirm James father from the 1867 marriage certificate.
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How do you come to William Richard CLARK?
I think two Williams have been confused.
I don't have the 1867 marriage details - I presume you do as you need those to confirm this James is 'your' James, son of Robert & Ann (Philip) CLARK
But working from what I can glean - I have found
James CLARK married Elizabeth SIMPSON St George, Edinburgh 1867
Elizabeth Jane CLARK mother SIMPSON born 1868, St George, Edinburgh
1871 census
60 Tintern Street, Kirkdale, Liverpool, Lancs
James CLARK 27, Steamship Engineer born Scotland
Elizabeth CLARK wife, 24, Engineers Wife born Scotland
Elizabeth J. Dau 2 born Scotland
Ann 7 mos born Liverpool, Lancashire
1881 census
69, Eton Street, Walton on Hill
Elizabeth Clark, 34, Marine Engineer’s wife, born Scotland
Elizabeth 12, daughter, born Scotland
Margaret dau 5, born Liverpool
William 2 born Liverpool
Edith 1 m born Liverpool
1891 census
7 Guion Road, Litherland, Lancashire
James 47, Marine Engineer, b Scotland
Elizabeth 44, b Scotland
Elizabeth J. Robinson dau 22, Scotland
Margaret 15, Nurse domestic Liverpool
William 12, Liverpool
Edith 10, Liverpool
Alfred J. Robinson son-in-law, 24, Bricklayer, b Battersea, London
James Robinson, grandson 3, born West Derby, Lancashire.
Death of James the Engineer - of Ince Ave, Litherland. And Australian papers please copy would co-incide with your Australian branch.
https://www.findmypast.com/image-share/17120c66-977f-47bf-ade5-978d07426b48
You can follow the families on relatively easily.
Birth registrations are on GRO and digital images can be bought to confirm
William, from those censuses, married Ellen Christina Bridge in 1905. Image is on Ancestry. William is 26, an Engineer and father is James Clark, deceased (no occupation given)
But marriage of Elizabeth Jane Clark, in 1887, is on a tree on Ancestry. She names her father as James Clark, Engineer.
And so William Richard CLARK and James Christopher CLARK are different people.
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I agree, Osip has confused names. There are multiple threads involving the family.
See my reply 9 here for marriage details and census
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=895195.9
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bother - missed that thread. I thought I had found them all :-)
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Marriage 17 July 1867 St George Edinburgh
James Clark, 23, single, Engineer on Board SS Balbec. Father - Robert Clark, Mother - Ann Philip
Elizabeth Simpson, 20 single, bookbinders gold layer. Father - James Simpson, mother – Elizabeth McGlashian
Children from the above marriage:-
• Elizabeth Jane 1868 Edinburgh
• Ann 1870 Liverpool
• James 1872 Liverpool
• Margaret 1875 Liverpool
• William 1878 Liverpool
• Edith 1880 Liverpool
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Yes I've tied myself in knots! I'm not very good with things like this.
I was going to link to other threads regarding my post but thought it might have confused things. The opposite may well be the case.
I will have to evaluate these replies before I reply. And I really do appreciate people taking time to answer my posts. Thank you.
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For this particular thread this is my starting point.
William Richard Clark (1875-1949) - Find a Grave Memorial
Williams birthdate sometimes differs from different sources but b1875 is on his grave.
Then the following regarding his parents. (Taken from this thread.)
Marriage 17 July 1867 St George Edinburgh
James Clark, 23, single, Engineer on Board SS Balbec. Father - Robert Clark, Mother - Ann Philip
Elizabeth Simpson, 20 single, bookbinders gold layer. Father - James Simpson, mother – Elizabeth McGlashian
Then again posted on this thread the siblings of William which answers my original question.
‘William Richard Clark siblings?’ (I couldn’t see them in any of my previous threads.)
Children from the above marriage:-
• Elizabeth Jane 1868 Edinburgh
• Ann 1870 Liverpool
• James 1872 Liverpool
• Margaret 1875 Liverpool
• William 1878 Liverpool
• Edith 1880 Liverpool
Is Williams birthdate a problem here?
Have I got things right or have I just confused matters more? Hopefully with your help the former.
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William richard Clark who married Annie cook is not your family.
This is your William’s birth
CLARK, WILLIAM SIMPSON
GRO Reference: 1879 M Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 435
I haven’t found a definite death for him.
He isn’t the 1949 one (I don’t believe)
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There is a lot of conflicting information.
I think osip needs to decide who he is descended from.
Is it William Richard Clark and Annie Cook, or is it James Clark and Elizabeth Simpson?
These are different and unrelated families.
As Clark is such a common name, you need to look with a great deal of care, and check your documentation, to ensure you are following the correct family.
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I agree with Neale1961.
Do you think that we could start from a point that you know is entirely accurate, ie who are named as the parents on your mothers birth certificate, what year was that birth, where in the world did it take place
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Thanks for your replies AND patience.
My investigations were all about tracing the Clark line back. This is what I know for sure.
SUSANNA LLOYD (CLARK) 1910-2001
Her parents are named on the headstone.
WILLIAM RICHARD CLARK 1875-1949
ANNIE CLARK (COOK) 1877-1952
married 1897
Then is there where the confusion begins?
Williams parents:
JAMES CHRISTOPHER CLARK 1844
ELIZABETH SIMPSON 1847
James parents:
ROBERT CLARK 1812
ANN PHILIP 1820
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WILLIAM RICHARD CLARK 1875-1949
ANNIE CLARK (COOK) 1877-1952
married 1897
Where does your information come from?
What are the names of parents from the BIRTH certificate and MARRIAGE certificate of William Richard Clark?
Do you have these documents?
If not, then you need them before you can move forward.
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1911 census courtesy of familysearch transcription:
Head: William Richard Clark b. Liverpool age 35 yrs, Property Jobber
Wife: Annie Clark b. Liverpool age 33 yrs
Daughter: Annie Florence Clark age 8 yrs, School
Son: William R. Clark age 4 yrs
Daughter: Susanah Clark age 1 yr
This entry would seem to tally with the M.I. quoted by osip
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If the find a grave entry is this one
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/244206615/susannah-lloyd
Where is
Her parents are named on the headstone
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Raybistre - that is the family in question.
Susannah 1910-2001
William H/R? (Billy) 1907-1978
Annie Florence 1903-1980
Father William Richard Clark
Mother Julia Anne (Annie) Cook (I have also modified this to reflect the name on the grave as up to now I have been refering to her as 'Annie' which is the name she was known as. This might have been causing a problem also?)
Neale - I did have access to cert's but not any longer. The info about Williams parents
James Christopher Clark
Elizabeth Simpson
has come via rootschat and Ancestry.
Do I have a problem these may be incorrect?
Sorry mckha489 - that is Susannah's headstone yes. There is a headstone close by with the parents on that.
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In 1901 William and Annie are the entry after Annie’s parents James and Julia Cook in Everton.
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Neale - I did have access to cert's but not any longer. The info about Williams parents
James Christopher Clark
Elizabeth Simpson
has come via rootschat and Ancestry.
Do I have a problem these may be incorrect?
OSIP, You are running multiple threads on your Clark family. On these threads you have provided confused, and conflicting information, and vague memories of family stories.
Many people have spent numerous hours trying to help, and you have been given many avenues to pursue. What research have you done yourself, and how have you checked this information? What documentation have you acquired along the way?
A Clark family has been traced through Scotland, Liverpool and to Australia. I personally spent many hours searching for, and transcribing merchant seaman records for you, following information that you posted.
It now seems this is probably NOT the right family.
The information you have obtained from Rootschat is based on the information you have provided.
If you have provided incorrect information, then that is a poor starting point.
I have no idea what errors you have copied from Ancestry trees!
You ask:- “Do I have a problem these may be incorrect?”
They are correct for a certain Clark family. BUT, is it YOUR Clark family? From the information you have now posted on this thread, probably not.
If you want accuracy in your family genealogy research, then you need the correct documents as a starting point. Isn’t this your responsibility? It is, after all, your family.
RootsChatter are very generous with their time, and are clever in trying to solve difficult trees. However they need you to provide some accuracy as a starting point.
Assuming you want accuracy; rather than wasted time, then the next step would be the birth certificate for your William Richard Clark.
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The info about Williams parents
James Christopher Clark
Elizabeth Simpson
has come via rootschat and Ancestry.
Were they not eliminated in your very first thread on this subject, back in 2022?
William son of Clark/Simpson is in 1901 3449/122/43 with his mother Elizabeth and possibly marries in 1905.
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Again, thanks for the replies and of course I appreciate the time and effort of everyone who has contributed.
The only clear way forward out of the mess I have created is to get the marriage cert of William Christopher Clark and Julia Ann Clark. Which of course has been suggested on more than one occassion. So I apologise for that.
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Hi
If you want the marriage of William Richard Clark and Annie Cook, 3 October 1897, it is online, including for free on FamilySearch (need to be registered and logged in)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99Q6-294Q-V
If you wish to download it, you can do it from here (arrow on right)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99Q6-294Q-V?view=fullText&lang=en&groupId=
William Richard is 21, a seaman.
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Age 21 on marriage in October 1897
If this them in 1901, William Clark is 24
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X921-WVC
1911 census courtesy of familysearch transcription:
Head: William Richard Clark b. Liverpool age 35 yrs, Property Jobber
1921, William Clark, age 44 Years 11 Months
1939, William Clark born 18 July 1875
William Richard Clark died 13 December 1949, age 74.
So if he was born in July, on three records he is born in 1875, and on three others he is born in 1876.
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Some Information already provided for you on your 1st thread in 2022 ----
THIS BIRTH WAS RULED OUT
CLARK, WILLIAM RICHARD Mother - WELSH
GRO Reference: 1875 S Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 337
Burial of William Richard Clarke aged 3 yrs in 1878
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James Christopher COOK
1st marriage 31st Oct 1869 St Peter’s Liverpool
James Clark , full age, bachelor, mariner. Father – James Clark surveyor
And Maria Hay spinster. Father James Hay shoemaker
Both of Brook Street. Witnesses are John EAGAN and Catherine KEHOE
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNSQ-R31?lang=en
2nd marriage 13 dec 1876, St Peter’s Liverpool
James Christopher Clark, widower, 36, mariner, Parliament st. Father – James Clark land surveyor
and Eliza Price, spinster. 36 spinster Brook st. Father Patrick Price – farmer
Witnesses – John Matthews and Margaret Kibblewhite
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNSW-4M4?lang=en
Children from 1st marriage
CLARKE, JAMES Mother - HAY
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 112
He was baptised 4 may 1869 at St Mary's Catholic Church, Liverpool, and mother's surname is HAY.
(“domi imminens periculum”) Possible death the next year.
CLARKE, ROBERT CHRISTOPHER Mother - HEY
GRO Reference: 1874 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 102
Catholic baptism, Robert Christopher Clark, born December 25th 1873, son of James and Maria (Hay). Godparents are James and Ann MacDevitt.
He died later in 1874.
No children registered in England from 2nd marriage with Eliza Price
Was William Richard a child from 1st marriage? or did he belong to Eliza, and he used the CLARKE surname.?
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Thanks again for your replies. I have genuinely tried to understand the facts and if I have interpreted them incorrectly I am more than happy to be corrected.
The details provided on the previous posts by jonwarrn regarding the marriage certificate and subsequent information look correct to me. In that they relate to the William Richard Clark and the family I am familiar with. His father on the certificate being James Christopher Clark. (deceased mariner)
Now taking into consideration the info I ignored in ‘22 that Neale has highlighted. That James had a 1st marriage to Maria Hay in OCT 1869.
Then a 2nd Marriage to Eliza Price in DEC 1876. (no registered children born from this marriage?)
William could have been born to James and Maria.
Or William could have been born to James and Eliza.
Or in fact William could have been born to an unknown father and Eliza pre marriage and he adopted the surname Clark. James then not being his biological father.
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James Christopher COOK[/b]
1st marriage 31st Oct 1869 St Peter’s Liverpool
James Clark , full age, bachelor, mariner. Father – James Clark surveyor
And Maria Hay spinster. Father James Hay shoemaker
Both of Brook Street. Witnesses are John EAGAN and Catherine KEHOE
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNSQ-R31?lang=en
In 1871 at 3Ct 15H Brook Street, Liverpool there is a Female Clarke (No first name listed) -Married age 28 Sailors wife bn Ireland. RG10/3771 foilio 124 page 22. No one else in household
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I think this might be James in 1871 census. He is onboard a ship called “Sea Star”
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBX1-99Q?lang=en
I am away from my notes at the moment, but there are quite a few seaman crew records for a James Clark born Dublin 1839-40 working as an able seaman on ships travelling between Dublin and Liverpool in the time frame 1867 to early 1870s.
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In 1871 at 3Ct 15H Brook Street, Liverpool there is a Female Clarke (No first name listed) -Married age 28 Sailors wife bn Ireland. RG10/3771 foilio 124 page 22. No one else in household
Great find, Rosie.
Electoral registers have James Clarke at 15 in 3 court, Brook Street
1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-QL94-4G
1872
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-W79H-P6
Do we know exactly when Ann Maria died? :-\
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It is Maria Hay, I think Neale was posting 'and' - it fooled me too ;D. I have yet to find a death for her.
Interesting that Eliza Price was also of Brook St when she married James Clark.
Maybe this death
Death Dec qtr 1875
CLARK Maria age 35 Liverpool 8b 127
This one is probably too close to his next marriage unless she died in childbirth and he married to have someone to look after the child - Burial was at Anfield
Death Dec qtr 1876
Clark Maria age 32 Liverpool 8b 31
That was good finding James on the electoral registers at the same address ;D
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16th November 1875 - Liverpool Workhouse
Maria Clark -35 Years - Wife of James Clark occupation Seaman
Cause of death Phthisis
Informant James Clark Widower In Attendance 3 Court Queen Street
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That looks like the right one, Rosie.
Very generous of you to obtain the extra information.
There is a burial for Maria Clarke in the catholic section at Anfield Cemetery, 18 November 1875
Age given as 33 on this.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9TY-63VW-Q
Order book here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9Y7-59WR-S
Workhouse creed register entry for Maria Clarke, admitted 12 Nov 1875, says died 16 Nov
Has different address, Edmund Street, to the one James gave on the cert
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-QF9M-PS
To me the admission register says Maria was widow of James, a Seaman (dittoed)
If so, they got the widow bit wrong!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-WHQK-L
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I agree with jonwarrn. Excellent finds Rosie.
The two court dwellings mentioned are both within walking distance of the docks in Liverpool. They were densly populated and a great many were from Ireland. Either stranded after failing to get passages or arriving to find work. The conditions at the time ranged from 'slums' to 'habitable.' The workhouses must have been extremely horrible to work in and as records show work related deaths and poor living conditions took there toll.
Thanks for the familysearch link jon.
I feel I should be doing more to contribute but I'm searching and searching but coming up with nothing. Thanks to everyone contributing.
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Now adding a bit more detail to my previous mention .....
There are various crew list records for James Clark, ableseaman, born 1839-1840 in Dublin.
The earliest I found was from 1867 on the vessel “William Hall”
Other ships were “Torch” and “Star”
These vessel were all registered in Dublin and were travelling / trading between Liverpool and Dublin, making repeated trips during each month.
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If we are to believe William Richard Clark’s date of birth 18 Jul. 1875 (from the 1939 register), then he was probably Maria’s child, born 4 months before she died.
The fact that there was no birth registration or baptism for him might be explained if father James was away at sea, and the mother Maria was gravely ill.
We haven’t found William in the 1881 census.
What happened to Eliza, the 2nd wife of James?
I wonder if the family returned to Ireland for a while?
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Neale. I do find your shipping history interesting and I research each vessel you mention. The vessel William Hall is interesting. Vessels bearing the name are done so in memory of a Petty Officer William Hall who was the first black person, first Nova Scotian, and third Canadian to receive the British Empire’s highest award for bravery, the Victoria Cross. He was the son of former American slaves born in 1827. And he enlisted in the Royal Navy in 1892.
And regarding the James Clark, who now isn't my James Clark, I did research the vessels you mentioned associated with him and perhaps I should post his shipping history somewhere. Might be useful for anyone reseaching him.
Thanks again.
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Neale. If indeed we do assume/believe Maria is the mother of William then the sequence of events as I understand them:
1st marriage 31st Oct 1869 St Peter’s Liverpool
James Clark, full age, bachelor, mariner. Father – James Clark surveyor and Maria Hay spinster. Father James Hay shoemaker.
Both of Brook Street. Witnesses are John EAGAN and Catherine KEHOE
Children:
CLARKE, JAMES (This baptisism date would be before the marriage?)
Baptised 4 may 1869 at St Mary's Catholic Church, Liverpool, and mother's surname is HAY.
(“domi imminens periculum”) Possible death the next year.
CLARKE, ROBERT CHRISTOPHER
Catholic baptism, Robert Christopher Clark, born December 25th 1873, son of James and Maria (Hay). Godparents are James and Ann MacDevitt.
He died later in 1874.
William born 18 july 1875 (from the 1839 register)
Workhouse creed register entry for Maria Clarke, admitted 12 Nov 1875, says died 16 Nov. Cause of death Phthisis.
There is a burial for Maria Clarke in the catholic section at Anfield Cemetery, 18 November 1875. Age given as 33 on this.
2nd marriage 13 Dec 1876, St Peter’s Liverpool
James Christopher Clark, widower, 36, mariner, Parliament st. Father – James Clark land surveyor
and Eliza Price, spinster. 36 spinster Brook st. Father Patrick Price – farmer
Witnesses – John Matthews and Margaret Kibblewhite.
No children registered in England from 2nd marriage with Eliza Price.
William marries 3 Oct 1897.
William 21yrs – seaman – father James Christopher Clark (deceased) Mariner.
Annie Cook 20yrs – father James Cook. Joiner.
(Julia Ann Cook born 18 July 1878.)
Witnesses William Lewis and Mary Cook.
Children:
Susannah 1910-2001
William 1907-1978
Annie Florence 1903-1980
William death 13 Dec 1949.
Julia death 9 Aug 1952.
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That looks like the right one, Rosie.
Very generous of you to obtain the extra information
At least it clarifies that James was still alive, it appears to have gone unnoticed though :-\
William born 18 july 1875 (from the 1839 register)
Workhouse creed register entry for Maria Clarke, admitted 12 Nov 1875, says died 16 Nov. Cause of death Phthisis.
There is a burial for Maria Clarke in the catholic section at Anfield Cemetery, 18 November 1875. Age given as 33 on this.
2nd marriage 13 Dec 1876, St Peter’s Liverpool
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Hi Rosie. Sorry I'm not sure what 'unnoticed' is refering to?