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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) => Topic started by: Cockneyrebel on Friday 28 November 25 11:33 GMT (UK)

Title: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Cockneyrebel on Friday 28 November 25 11:33 GMT (UK)
Walter married Mary Margaret Bellerby (1877-1940) 13 Feb 1897 at Fulford, they had 3 children: Harriet Susan Gertrude born Q1 1898, John Henry born Q1 1899 and Arthur Thomas born 4 May 1900 all in York. The family excluding John Henry appeared on the 1901 Census, but on the 1911 Mary and all 3 children appeared but without Walter. At 1921 Mary M was living as married with a lodger in either Hull or York but at 1939 she was recorded as a widow living with her son, Arthur in Flaxton.
Trees on Ancestry suggest that Walter went to the USA and lived and died in Pennsylvania in 1931 having married again?
Cr
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: CaroleW on Friday 28 November 25 12:02 GMT (UK)
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/145096163/walter-franks

Different person if you check children births
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: *Sandra* on Friday 28 November 25 12:03 GMT (UK)
Does the birth date agree ?

FIND A GRAVE

Walter Franks

29 Dec 1871 England
Death 14 Apr 1931 (aged 59)
Heidelberg, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania.

Burial Chartiers Cemetery
Carnegie, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/145096163/walter-franks

Sandra

Added

Marriage 1893

Walter Franks - 29 December 1870 England - aged 22 years.
Marriage Date   13 Apr 1893
Marriage Place   Allegheny, Pennsylvania
Spouse   Mary A. Black
Certificate Number   13277

Walter Franks - 29 Dec 1871 England - 14 April 1931
Death Age   59
Birth Date   29 Dec 1871
Death Place   Heidelberg, Allegheny, Pennsylvania
Father    John Franks
Mother    Elizabeth Summerscale
Spouse    Mary A Black
Certificate Number   38570
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: *Sandra* on Friday 28 November 25 12:04 GMT (UK)

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Thu, 16 Apr 1931
Page 26

https://www.newspapers.com/article/pittsburgh-post-gazette/185796116/

Sandra
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: *Sandra* on Friday 28 November 25 12:09 GMT (UK)

IF
the father of Walter was John Franks............ John Franks passed in 1907

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 
Tue, 8 Jan 1907
Page 6

https://www.newspapers.com/article/pittsburgh-post-gazette/185796185/

Elizabeth Summerscales - 1849 - 1868  (aged 19 yeatrs)
Marriage Date   25 Jan 1868
Marriage Place   Halifax, St John the Baptist, Yorkshire
Halifax, St John the Baptist
Father   George Summerscales Spouse   John Franks

John Franks arrived in Philadelphia in 1881 -
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: *Sandra* on Friday 28 November 25 12:20 GMT (UK)

Could he have a sister Emily Franks -

Marriage -

Emily Franks - Marriage Date   21 Oct 1891
Marriage Place   Pittsburgh, Allegheny, Pennsylvania
Spouse    George R. Hilton.

The Pittsburgh Press
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Wed, 9 Dec 1953
Page 54

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-pittsburgh-press/185796278/

FIND A GRAVE

Emily Franks Hilton - 12 January 1873 - West Yorkshire.

Chartiers Cemetery
Carnegie, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania
Plot G

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/28025253/emily-hilton

Sandra

Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: ShaunJ on Friday 28 November 25 12:25 GMT (UK)
The one in Pennsylvania married Mary A Black in 1893. AT that time he was a miner.

The online tree has a crossed wire. It's not the electrical engineer from York.
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: jonwarrn on Friday 28 November 25 13:08 GMT (UK)
John Henry born Q1 1899

JH's date of birth was 10 January 1899
Walter a journeyman gas fitter
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSDP-WSWW-F
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: jonwarrn on Friday 28 November 25 20:42 GMT (UK)
Harriet Susan Gertrude born Q1 1898

Possibly an admission record for her in 1907 at St Cuthbert's School, York
Born 1897, from free keyword search probably born in December, parent/guardian Walter
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Mabel Bagshawe on Friday 28 November 25 22:26 GMT (UK)
When Harriet married in 1920 her husband's father was noted as deceased, but Walter wasn't. Occupation engineer

However John Henry's army records have  his mother as next of kin
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Cockneyrebel on Saturday 29 November 25 09:42 GMT (UK)
Thank you one and all for your superb research.
Walter was born Q1 1871 so the findagrave dob is either wrong or recorded wrongly, as is the son Arthur.
It would seem to me that it's a different family in the USA as Walter married Mary in 1897 so couldn't have married in 1893 in the USA.
Still we don't know when the English Walter died?
Cr
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: jonwarrn on Saturday 29 November 25 10:23 GMT (UK)
Hi Cr
I think Q1 1871 Walter from Halifax is the chap in Allegheny.
Parents John and Elizabeth, and a sister Emily.
Mum and the two children may have gone to the States in 1884 (Franck) Was John on same voyage or did he go earlier?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9PT4-96QJ

There was an illegitimate Walter Franks born in York, 15 November 1872
Mother Agnes
Vaccination register, with info from the birth registration
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSDP-WS1J-2

Could he be the one you are liooking for? :-\
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: jonwarrn on Saturday 29 November 25 13:20 GMT (UK)
There was an illegitimate Walter Franks born in York, 15 November 1872

Might be a person of interest in York in 1891, what happened to him?
Walter Quinn, 18, Gas Fitters Apprentice
Parents John and Susan.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7P55-MN2

Is there a birth reg for him? Were John and Susan really his parents, who was sister Gertrude?

Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 29 November 25 14:19 GMT (UK)
Hi Cr
I think Q1 1871 Walter from Halifax is the chap in Allegheny.
Parents John and Elizabeth, and a sister Emily.
Mum and the two children may have gone to the States in 1884 (Franck) Was John on same voyage or did he go earlier?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9PT4-96QJ


John Franks
Residence Place   Carengie, Allegheny, Pennsylvania
Probate Date   22 Jan 1907
Probate Place   Allegheny, Pennsylvania, USA
Inferred Death Place   Pennsylvania, USA
Case Number   226
Item Description   Will Packets, Vol 088-090, 1906-1907
his wife named Elizabeth

Burial John Franks https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/148765663/john-franks
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 29 November 25 14:24 GMT (UK)
There was an illegitimate Walter Franks born in York, 15 November 1872

Might be a person of interest in York in 1891, what happened to him?
Walter Quinn, 18, Gas Fitters Apprentice
Parents John and Susan.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7P55-MN2

Is there a birth reg for him? Were John and Susan really his parents, who was sister Gertrude?

He is with John & Susan Quinn in 1881 as well  :).   They are living in Hilda Street in 1881.  I could not see a Catherine St as mentioned on Walter Franks immunisation record but there is a Catherine Court off Hilda Street.   Gertude who you mention was listed as Gertrude Firth a Nurse Child in 1881

ADDED

Walter Franks first child was named Harriet Susan Gertrude,  is it a coincidence that Walter Quinn has a 'mother' named Susan & sister named Gertrude
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 29 November 25 14:39 GMT (UK)
There was an illegitimate Walter Franks born in York, 15 November 1872

Might be a person of interest in York in 1891, what happened to him?
Walter Quinn, 18, Gas Fitters Apprentice
Parents John and Susan.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7P55-MN2

Is there a birth reg for him? Were John and Susan really his parents, who was sister Gertrude?

He is with John & Susan Quinn in 1881 as well  :).   They are living in Hilda Street in 1881.  I could not see a Catherine St as mentioned on Walter Franks immunisation record but there is a Catherine Court off Hilda Street.   Gertude who you mention was listed as Gertrude Firth a Nurse Child in 1881

ADDED

Walter Franks first child was named Harriet Susan Gertrude,  is it a coincidence that Walter Quinn has a 'mother' named Susan & sister named Gertrude

Is this his death ?

Walter Quinn Death Age   59
Registration Quarter   Jul-Aug-Sep 1932
Registration District   Knaresborough
Inferred County   Yorkshire West Riding
Volume   9a Page   121

There’s a Walter Quinn  b1877 York living in Yorkshire also Alice Quinn born 1881 York in 1921
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 29 November 25 14:50 GMT (UK)
I have just located Catherine Street in 1881,  at no 10 is a Daniel Quinn & family.  Still looking for Catherine St in 1871

Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 29 November 25 15:07 GMT (UK)
I have just located Catherine Street in 1881,  at no 10 is a Daniel Quinn & family. 
Still looking for Catherine St in 1871

FRANKS, WALTER   -
GRO Reference: 1872  D Quarter in YORK  Volume 09D  Page 46   

Ok just downloaded the above birth record

15 November 1872
12 Catherine Street St Lawrence York
WALTER
mother Agnes FRANKS, she registered the birth 16 Dec 1872 same address

Marriage 4th December 1875
Agnes FRANKS 22 to Thomas Littlechild 26 on 14 Dec 1875
both res 12 Catherine St
Father’s named James Franks stonemason & John Littlechild, blacksmith
One of the witnesses John QUINN
image on Anc*y

ADDED

Dau Agnes born 4 Dec 1879  to Thomas & Agnes nee Franks
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1880/02886/2057686.pdf

First child baptism address 12 Catherine Street

Letitia Ann Littlechild
Baptism 29 Dec 1875 York, St Lawrence, Yorkshire
Thomas  occ Corporal 3rd Dragoons Mother Agnes

added
Agnes buried 1916
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/133226016/agnes-littlechild
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 29 November 25 15:10 GMT (UK)
I have already looked at the Littlechilds on the next census and Walter is not with them  :)

Interestingly the birth reg information is the same as the inoculation link posted by John
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 29 November 25 15:34 GMT (UK)
Is this his death ?

Walter Quinn Death Age   59
Registration Quarter   Jul-Aug-Sep 1932
Registration District   Knaresborough
Inferred County   Yorkshire West Riding
Volume   9a Page   121

There’s a Walter Quinn  b1877 York living in Yorkshire also Alice Quinn born 1881 York in 1921


I think it may be him Ladyhawk though his age is well out. In 1901 as Walter Franks he is an Electrical Engineer, the occupation in 1921 is a similar description.

Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 29 November 25 15:47 GMT (UK)
Is this his death ?

Walter Quinn Death Age   59
Registration Quarter   Jul-Aug-Sep 1932
Registration District   Knaresborough
Inferred County   Yorkshire West Riding
Volume   9a Page   121

There’s a Walter Quinn  b1877 York living in Yorkshire also Alice Quinn born 1881 York in 1921


I think it may be him Ladyhawk though his age is well out. In 1901 as Walter Franks he is an Electrical Engineer, the occupation in 1921 is a similar description.

That's what I thought too Rosie

For info.

Walter & Alice Quinn
Residence Dates 1921/22/24/25/28/30/31/32
Residence Place   Ripon, West Yorkshire, England
Street Address   23, Hookstone Avenue

Year 1918 just Walter Quinn listed at No 23
Year 1933 Walter & Alice Quinn at No 51 Hookstone Avenue
and from Year 1934/1940 Alice Quinn at No 51  ditto
West Yorkshire, England, Electoral Registers, 1840-1962

Has Walter been found in 1911?
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 29 November 25 16:18 GMT (UK)
A public tree on Anc*y has

Walter Quinn occ electrical fitter death 1932 (no image), marriage 16 Oct 1917 St John's Episcopal Church, Jedburgh, Scotland (no image), parents named as John Quinn & Susan Wetherall
Marr.residency
15 Oct 1917 Harrogate, Yorkshire 23 Hookstone Avenue, Harrogate, Yorkshire

This is the entry on SP

QUINN
WALTER
MOWFORTH
ALICE L
1917
792 / 14
Jedburgh

Alice Louisa MOWFORTH
b 10 SEP 1876 Eastrington, Yorkshire
d 01 MAR 1962 Harrogate, The General Hospital, Harrogate (no image)

Added there is a 1962 probate record for Alice address 51 Hookstone Avenue, widow, probate to A E Mowforth, spinster - Alice Quinn can be found at that address in 1939 dob 10 Sep 1876

Listed on the ER

Alice Mowforth
Residence Date   1918
Residence Place   Ripon, West Yorkshire, England
Street Address   23, Hookstone Avenue
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 29 November 25 17:07 GMT (UK)
It has come together nicely, well done  ;D
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: jonwarrn on Saturday 29 November 25 17:43 GMT (UK)
It has come together nicely

Wow, Rosie and Ladyhawk, what can I say?
Amazing research by you two.
John
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 29 November 25 18:06 GMT (UK)
It was your suggestion that initiated it, we only carried on from where you left off  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: MollyC on Saturday 29 November 25 19:21 GMT (UK)
Reply #21
Quote
Residence Place   Ripon, West Yorkshire, England

No such place!

Ripon was in the West Riding of Yorkshire (and since 1974 has been in North Yorkshire).

I make no excuses for pointing out every time that Ancestry has been very careless in assuming the West Riding electoral registers they have obtained from the West Yorkshire Record Office relate to the modern county name.  The correct heading is at the beginning of every polling district.
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 29 November 25 19:33 GMT (UK)
I am impressed with the information found by Ladyhawk on an Ancestry tree that appears to be properly researched.  :)



Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: MollyC on Saturday 29 November 25 20:13 GMT (UK)
I'm not criticising anyone's research.  I am criticising Ancestry for misleading hard-working researchers who do their best but are not familiar with the county, past and present.  The collection of West Riding electoral registers extends from the border of Nottinghamshire to the border of Westmorland.  Modern West Yorkshire is only a fraction of that area, so Ancestry has made a big mistake.

Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 29 November 25 22:31 GMT (UK)
Sorry MollyC,  I was just commenting further after John’s reply as I did not feel I had given Ladyhawk the credit she deserved when I responded to John’s post.

I agree completely with your comments about Ancestry and the names they allocate to districts.  My research barely touches Yorkshire so I always have to check which part the records have to come under.  Sadly Ancestry seems to use current day areas a lot like Elmbridge, Waverley, Spelthorne instead of the towns of Weybridge, Walton on Thames, Farnham and Staines etc.  So many places have been put into areas by Ancestry that were only created by local government reorganisation in the 1970’s or later but they infer they were the names used long before that.

Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: MollyC on Saturday 29 November 25 23:14 GMT (UK)
Cumbria is another minefield.  Ancestry will not have noticed that two and half years ago it divided again, into unitary authorities of Cumberland and "Westmorland & Furness".  Furness represents the detached part of Lancashire.  Boundaries are not identical.  Westmorland gained a few parishes from the West Riding in 1974.
I have been checking the numbers.  The West Riding was 3.53 times larger in area than West Yorkshire.


Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Cockneyrebel on Sunday 30 November 25 09:34 GMT (UK)
I'm a tad confused! I thought we'd established that the Walter in the USA is different to the one in England who married Mary M Bellerby. How does Walter Quinn get into it?
As to Ancestry they're absolutely hopeless on British counties, I guess being an American company they're not interested in us British!
Cr
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 30 November 25 13:11 GMT (UK)
We have eliminated the Walter that went to the USA.

See John’s post reply 11 where he suggests he could be Walter Franks bn 1872 the illegitimate son of Agnes Franks

In 1881 we believe that he is Walter Quinn, the Quinn’s also have a nurse child Gertrude.  There is no evidence that Susan Quinn gave birth to Walter Quinn
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 30 November 25 15:08 GMT (UK)
To sum it up briefly

Walter Franks bn 1872 cannot be found in 1881 but his mother Agnes has married Thomas Littlechild in 1875 and he is not with them. (One of the marriage witnesses was a John Quinn) The Littlechilds first child was baptised with the same address used on Walter Franks birth certificate and immunisation record.

So where is Walter in 1881, there is no evidence of a death.
...

John suggested that Walter Quinn living with John and Susan Quinn in 1881 could be Walter Franks.
He is still with them in 1891 and then he vanishes.
....
Then Walter Franks reappears in 1901 following his marriage.

In 1911 neither Walter Franks or Walter Quinn have been located.
....

In 1917 Jedburgh, Scotland,  Walter Quinn married Alice L Mowforth and he gave his parents names as John Quinn and Susan (Nee Wetherall)
...
In 1921 he is in Harrogate with Alice though his birth year is out but his occ Electrical Fitter and birthplace York.

We believe this is his death, the age is more accurate
QUINN, WALTER       age 59 
GRO Reference: 1932  September Quarter in KNARESBOROUGH  Volume 09A  Page 121
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 30 November 25 15:13 GMT (UK)
To sum it up briefly

Walter Franks bn 1872 cannot be found in 1881 but his mother Agnes has married Thomas Littlechild in 1875 and he is not with them. (One of the marriage witnesses was a John Quinn) The Littlechilds first child was baptised with the same address used on Walter Franks birth certificate and immunisation record.

So where is Walter in 1881, there is no evidence of a death.
...

John suggested that Walter Quinn living with John and Susan Quinn in 1881 could be Walter Franks.
He is still with them in 1891 and then he vanishes.
....
Then Walter Franks reappears in 1901 following his marriage.

In 1911 neither Walter Franks or Walter Quinn have been located.
....

In 1917 Jedburgh, Scotland,  Walter Quinn married Alice L Mowforth and he gave his parents names as John Quinn and Susan (Nee Wetherall)
...
In 1921 he is in Harrogate with Alice though his birth year is out but his occ Electrical Fitter and birthplace York.

We believe this is his death, the age is more accurate
QUINN, WALTER       age 59 
GRO Reference: 1932  September Quarter in KNARESBOROUGH  Volume 09A  Page 121

Well done Rosie - I was just about to post something similar to put it all together from jonwarrn find - there was red writing so I deleted mine as yours is much more compact  :)
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 30 November 25 15:21 GMT (UK)
I was hoping that the gaps in the summary were covered in the original posts  :)

Looking back at it I had originally missed the fact that John Quinn (hopefully the same John Quinn) was a marriage witness to Agnes, mother of Walter.

Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 30 November 25 15:27 GMT (UK)
To add

I think this is John 69 York & Susan Quinn 66 York address 4 St George Terrace George St York
occupation Batch Mixer In Glass Works on the 1911 census, noted as married 46 years no children

Add marriage FreeBMD

Jun 1864   York    9d   83   
names on same page
Quinn    John       
Weatherill    Susan       
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 30 November 25 15:34 GMT (UK)
Brilliant  ;D,
That at least suggests that Walter was probably also a nurse child taken in by the Quinns
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 30 November 25 15:53 GMT (UK)
Harrogate Herald 21 February 1917
DRUNK
Walter Quinn, Electrician, of Harrogate, was charged by P.C.Hunter with being drunk in North Park Road the previous night.
Asked if he had any money to pay a fine other than that found in his possession defendant replied that he put what money he could spare into the War Loan last week (Laughter) He said he could get some.
The bench imposed a nominal sum of 5s including costs
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 30 November 25 16:59 GMT (UK)
Harrogate Herald 21 February 1917
DRUNK
Walter Quinn, Electrician, of Harrogate, was charged by P.C.Hunter with being drunk in North Park Road the previous night.
Asked if he had any money to pay a fine other than that found in his possession defendant replied that he put what money he could spare into the War Loan last week (Laughter) He said he could get some.
The bench imposed a nominal sum of 5s including costs

Good find Rosie

Can't find Walter Franks/Quinn on the 1911 census  ??? Going to check out Alice to see where she was in 1911

There is a Walter Franks age 33 (b1878 :-\) in 1911 Portobello Midlothian looks as if this Walter might have a wife Jeannie and children - sorry don't have sub to SP to check further details

Thought I check out that 1932 death entry

12 September 1932 General Hospital Harrogate U.D.
Walter Quinn age 59 of 51 Hookstone Avenue Oatlands, Pannal R.D.
Occupation Electrician (Journeyman)
Informant widow of deceased Alice L Quinn, same address

Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 30 November 25 17:52 GMT (UK)

Might be a person of interest in York in 1891, what happened to him?

Walter Quinn, 18, Gas Fitters Apprentice Parents John and Susan.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7P55-MN2

Is there a birth reg for him?
Were John and Susan really his parents, who was sister Gertrude?

Here's the 1881/91 census detail

Piece   4725 Folio   100 Page number   16
John Quinn 39 Head City of York
Susan Quinn 36 Wife ditto
Walter QUINN 8 Son ditto
William Fowler 49 Boarder
Elizabeth Fawcett 20 Boarder
Gertrude FIRTH 2 Nurse Child, Hull Yorkshire

1891 Piece 3894 Folio   33
John QUINN           49   Head
Susan ditto            45   Wife
Walter ditto 18   Son born York
Gertrude ditto  12   Daughter born Hull
1 Boarder

Walter married  Mary Margaret Bellerby  13 Feb 1897 at Fulford

Marriage image on Anc*y  - not sure whether this was mentioned on the thread one of the witnesses to Walter FRANKS marriage was a Gertrude FIRTH
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 30 November 25 17:59 GMT (UK)
That 1911 Portobello Franks family looks interesting.   I can't see any births for those Franks children on S.P.  I wonder where they were registered and under what name.

I don't have a sub either.
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 30 November 25 19:31 GMT (UK)
I had some credits so downloaded that 1911 portobello census

1 Baileyfield road.  Lots of households at the address.

Walter Franks, 33, born England. Manufacturer and traveller of Celluloid Pen Nibs, own account
Jeannie 28, born Forfarshire, Dundee. Married 8 yrs. 3 children born & living
Jeannie 5 Dundee
Beatrice 1 Edinburgh
A daughter under one month, not named,  born portobello
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 30 November 25 20:54 GMT (UK)
I had some credits so downloaded that 1911 portobello census

1 Baileyfield road.  Lots of households at the address.

Walter Franks, 33, born England. Manufacturer and traveller of Celluloid Pen Nibs, own account
Jeannie 28, born Forfarshire, Dundee. Married 8 yrs. 3 children born & living
Jeannie 5 Dundee
Beatrice 1 Edinburgh
A daughter under one month, not named,  born portobello

Not the Elizabeth Quin 685 / 7 / 39
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Ladyhawk on Sunday 30 November 25 23:26 GMT (UK)
That 1911 Portobello Franks family looks interesting.   I can't see any births for those Franks children on S.P.  I wonder where they were registered and under what name.


I’m not finding the births either  ??? Nor can I see a suitable marriage Walter Franks to Jeannie

I had some credits so downloaded that 1911 portobello census

1 Baileyfield road.  Lots of households at the address.

Walter Franks, 33, born England. Manufacturer and traveller of Celluloid Pen Nibs, own account
Jeannie 28, born Forfarshire, Dundee. Married 8 yrs. 3 children born & living
Jeannie 5 Dundee
Beatrice 1 Edinburgh
A daughter under one month, not named,  born portobello


Very kind of you mckha489  - Walter born in England but occupation different  :-\ Also not finding the Franks family on 1921 in Scotland

Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Cockneyrebel on Monday 01 December 25 09:19 GMT (UK)
Thank you very much for your excellent research again all. So it seems that Walter changed his surname when he married in Scotland and died with it, I wonder if he married Alice bigamously or whether he was divorced by then?
Cr
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Ladyhawk on Monday 01 December 25 10:08 GMT (UK)

I wonder if he married Alice bigamously or whether he was divorced by then?

QUINN
WALTER
MOWFORTH
ALICE L
1917
792 / 14
Jedburgh

Would their marriage certificate be of any help?
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Monday 01 December 25 10:10 GMT (UK)
Beat me to it Ladyhawk, I was just trying to post the same suggestion
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Ladyhawk on Monday 01 December 25 10:33 GMT (UK)
I had some credits so downloaded that 1911 portobello census

1 Baileyfield road.  Lots of households at the address.

Walter Franks, 33, born England. Manufacturer and traveller of Celluloid Pen Nibs, own account
Jeannie 28, born Forfarshire, Dundee. Married 8 yrs. 3 children born & living
Jeannie 5 Dundee
Beatrice 1 Edinburgh
A daughter under one month, not named,  born portobello

For info……Could this be the same couple

Walter Edward & Jeannie Franks
Residence Street Address   Southend Road
Registration Date   1918 - 1920
Registration Place   Edlesborough, England
Polling District   Edlesborough
Constituency Place   Buckinghamshire

and could this be their daughter marrying?

Marriage 16 Nov 1935 Saint Mary the Virgin, Primrose Hill: Primrose Hill Road, Camden
Beatrice Agnes Franks Age 25 Father   Walter Edward Franks deceased
Spouse   Arthur Cannon King, One witness James E Franks
image on Anc*y - edited to add possible death /burial  of her father
FRANKS, WALTER  EDWARD     52 
GRO Reference: 1929  J Quarter in KENSINGTON  Volume 01A  Page 209
Burial 14 May 1929   St Marylebone Cemetery  - image on anc*y

added snippet ER

Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: jonwarrn on Monday 01 December 25 17:07 GMT (UK)
If the Walter Franks in Portobello isn't the right chap, there is a Walter Quinn from York in Harrogate (Knaresborough RD) in 1911
Transcript says he is 34, Single, Electrician Fitter
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWNV-ZYZ
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Monday 01 December 25 17:16 GMT (UK)
It is even transcribed properly on FindMyPast, how did I miss that  ::).  ;D
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: mckha489 on Monday 01 December 25 18:19 GMT (UK)
Just to completely rule him out

Walter Edward the Pen Nib manufacturer is, with family, in Islington in 1921.
Indexed as FRANKIS on FindMyPast.

Born Birmingham. 43 & 7 mths

James E Franks witness at the marriage earlier is James Edward Franks b 16 July 1915.
Supposedly born Tottenham. Trying to find his birth for completeness, (to get Jeannie’s surname) . Failing!
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Ladyhawk on Monday 01 December 25 18:36 GMT (UK)

If the Walter Franks in Portobello isn't the right chap, there is a Walter Quinn from York in Harrogate (Knaresborough RD) in 1911
Transcript says he is 34, Single, Electrician Fitter
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWNV-ZYZ

Well found Jonwarrn - at least the Walter Franks in Scotland in 1911 can now be ruled out  :)
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Cockneyrebel on Tuesday 02 December 25 09:16 GMT (UK)
I thought we were going for the Walter who died in Knaresborough which would fit with the 1911 census?
Cr
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Ladyhawk on Tuesday 02 December 25 16:00 GMT (UK)
Walter married Mary Margaret Bellerby (1877-1940) 13 Feb 1897 at Fulford, they had 3 children: Harriet Susan Gertrude born Q1 1898, John Henry born Q1 1899 and Arthur Thomas born 4 May 1900 all in York.

on the 1911 Mary and all 3 children appeared but without Walter.
I thought we were going for the Walter who died in Knaresborough which would fit with the 1911 census?
Cr

Yes we are

Your Walter Franks hadn’t been found on 1911 census and a Walter Franks was found in Scotland on 1911 census and I wondered if that might be him

jonwarrn then found your Walter with matching occupation as Walter Quinn on 1911 census in Knaresborough.


If the Walter Franks in Portobello isn't the right chap, there is a Walter Quinn from York in Harrogate (Knaresborough RD) in 1911
Transcript says he is 34, Single, Electrician Fitter
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWNV-ZYZ


Brought forward summary from Rosie

To sum it up briefly

Walter Franks bn 1872 cannot be found in 1881 but his mother Agnes has married Thomas Littlechild in 1875 and he is not with them. (One of the marriage witnesses was a John Quinn) The Littlechilds first child was baptised with the same address used on Walter Franks birth certificate and immunisation record.

So where is Walter in 1881, there is no evidence of a death.
...

John suggested that Walter Quinn living with John and Susan Quinn in 1881 could be Walter Franks.
He is still with them in 1891 and then he vanishes.
....
Then Walter Franks reappears in 1901 following his marriage.

In 1911 neither Walter Franks or Walter Quinn have been located.
....


In 1917 Jedburgh, Scotland,  Walter Quinn married Alice L Mowforth and he gave his parents names as John Quinn and Susan (Nee Wetherall)
...
In 1921 he is in Harrogate with Alice though his birth year is out but his occ Electrical Fitter and birthplace York.

We believe this is his death, the age is more accurate

QUINN, WALTER       age 59 
GRO Reference: 1932  September Quarter in KNARESBOROUGH  Volume 09A  Page 121




Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Cockneyrebel on Wednesday 03 December 25 08:38 GMT (UK)
Seems as if Walter is a complete mystery, probably separated from Mary prior to 1911 and went his own way.
Cr
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Wednesday 03 December 25 11:17 GMT (UK)

I wonder if he married Alice bigamously or whether he was divorced by then?

QUINN
WALTER
MOWFORTH
ALICE L
1917
792 / 14
Jedburgh

Would their marriage certificate be of any help?

It would certainly be interesting to see what information is on this marriage certificate which is available from Scotlands People

Ladyhawk has already very kindly purchased the death certificate for you, reply 38
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Cockneyrebel on Wednesday 03 December 25 12:39 GMT (UK)
On the marriage certificate at Scotlands People, he is recorded as a batchelor aged 43, an electrical fitter, parents John Quinn a yard foreman and Susan Quinn mmn Wetherall. Alice resided at 23 Hookstone Avenue, Harrogate whilst Walter was at Crown Lane, Jedburgh, witnesses William & Susan J Robson.
Cr
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Wednesday 03 December 25 14:48 GMT (UK)
Thank you for posting the marriage certificate information.  :) 

Rosie
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Ladyhawk on Wednesday 03 December 25 15:37 GMT (UK)
CR - thanks for letting us know the marriage details  :)
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Cockneyrebel on Thursday 04 December 25 08:33 GMT (UK)
I had some credits left on SP so requested it even though he's not a direct ancestor but married into my tree via Mary M.
Do the marriage details help?
Cr
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: rosie99 on Thursday 04 December 25 12:08 GMT (UK)
I suspect that the Robson's could have been who he was living with in Scotland.  I can't see anything helpful in the newspapers though.

The fact that when Walter Franks married Mary Margaret Bellerby he named his father as JOHN Franks (Deceased) and one of the witnesses was Gertrude Firth who had been living with the John & Susan Quinn in 1881 at the same time as Walter QUINN it has to be the same person.
Title: Re: Walter Franks born Q1 1871 York
Post by: Cockneyrebel on Friday 05 December 25 10:07 GMT (UK)
Thank you rosie99 foe summing it up.
Cr